Possible to make an alternate plugin repository if current one stops working?

[mkanet]

If google were to pull the plug. Would it be possible for us to modify sageTV so it uses a different plugin repository (everything still working the same way, just hosted somewhere else)?

Thanks,
MKANET

[jpwegas]

Originally Posted by mkanet

If google were to pull the plug. Would it be possible for us to modify sageTV so it uses a different plugin repository (everything still working the same way, just hosted somewhere else)?

Thanks,
MKANET

It looks to me like the plugins are driven entirely by the contents of the SageTVPlugins.xml file which is periodically downloaded from the Sage site.

So there would be three steps to mimic the current functionality:

1. Someone would have to store the "master" SageTVPlugins.xml file and provide a way for plugin developers to add/manage entries.
2. The SageTVPlugins.xml file would have to be downloaded from the new master site instead of the old one. There are several ways this can be accomplished but I will skip the details for now.
3. Plugin owners who currently house their plugins at the Sage download server (approximately 32%) would have to store their plugins elsewhere and update their entries at the new master site.

I think these are all doable if it comes to that (hopefully it won't).

--John

[Slugger]

Originally Posted by mkanet

If google were to pull the plug. Would it be possible for us to modify sageTV so it uses a different plugin repository (everything still working the same way, just hosted somewhere else)?

Thanks,
MKANET

Yes. I've even posted a script that will allow you to create the plugin repository locally on your own LAN. You can ignore all the discussion of bugs that follows the linked to post - they've all been fixed in the latest version of the script.

There is also work being done to mirror the repository online and make it accessible for all. No details available on that yet.

For the local mirror, just run the script and if Google pulls the plug then replace the SageTVPlugins.xml file in your SageTV folder with the repo.xml file that the above script generates.

[mkanet]

Actually, it was the details I was curious about; and, curious if it's possibly time to start discussing how to go about doing it. We would obviously have to change our current setups to point to the new plugin server. We would also need an automated website that can mimic what the current plugin server does.

[jpwegas]

Originally Posted by mkanet

Actually, it was the details I was curious about; and, curious if it's possibly time to start discussing how to go about doing it. We would obviously have to change our current setups to point to the new plugin server. We would also need an automated website that can mimic what the current plugin server does.

I think it's too early but here are some random thoughts which may or may not be useful, assuming you want to have the same experience for the users and developers:

#1 would of course be the most work: someone would have to set up a (virtual) server somewhere with some scripts that would allow management (and also test/verify of) the submitted plugin data (since devs would need to continue to update that as plugins are improved).

#3 Requires each plugin user to re-host their plugins and update the configs. Or alternatively the new master host could drop those plugins initially. Or even better: The new master site could (initially) host copies of the plugins hosted at Sage and point the URLs to the new master site. Slugger's script can already collect all this data.

Some details on downloading from the new site (#2 on my list above):

The download URL is not in the Sage.properties file so you can't just change it there (which would be easiest). The URL is in one of the jar files. So some options are:

1. Change your sage server host or your local home DNS (for those of us that run a caching DNS server at home) to point download.sagetv.com to the IP address of the "new" server. (Or use a CNAME to "redirect" it.) This might have other side effects if Sage server uses download.sagetv.com for other things.
2. Change the jar file to point to the "new" server. This might be possible but I don't have much experience with Java.
3. If the Sage site stops working completely, it's likely that Sage's built in update of the file would fail and the local copy of SageTVPlugins.xml would never be touched. If that's the case then you just need a script (or perhaps another plugin!) that would download the plugins file from the new site.

--John

[Slugger]

Originally Posted by mkanet

Actually, it was the details I was curious about; and, curious if it's possibly time to start discussing how to go about doing it. We would obviously have to change our current setups to point to the new plugin server. We would also need an automated website that can mimic what the current plugin server does.

Well, I've ported the above mirror script to php for someone and the mirror is online. I don't own it so I'm not announcing anything more that that. The owner will announce if/when they want to.

As to providing the same automated plugin submission system that exists today... that's a little more effort and not something I'm willing to tackle anytime soon. I'm at a crossroads with respect to Sage... to provide a similar plugin submission system to replace the existing one is not a massive undertaking, but just enough work that I'm not really sure if it'll be worth it. When the need for this replacement arrives, how many devs are still going to be around needing this functionality? I can't justify writing such a system for a dead product that may or may not be used. That's where I stand, perhaps someone else disagrees and would be willing to take on writing a new plugin submission system? I don't know. I just think there are too many unknowns right now to proceed with something like creating a new plugin submission system. But that's just my humble opinion.

Originally Posted by jpwegas

I think it's too early but here are some random thoughts which may or may not be useful, assuming you want to have the same experience for the users and developers:

#1 would of course be the most work: someone would have to set up a (virtual) server somewhere with some scripts that would allow management (and also test/verify of) the submitted plugin data (since devs would need to continue to update that as plugins are improved).

This is where I'm torn. I honestly believe by the time we need to replace the plugin submission system there won't be many devs left actively updating plugins. I could be wrong, I hope I am, but that's how I see it.

#3 Requires each plugin user to re-host their plugins and update the configs. Or alternatively the new master host could drop those plugins initially. Or even better: The new master site could (initially) host copies of the plugins hosted at Sage and point the URLs to the new master site. Slugger's script can already collect all this data.

My mirror script already copies from the Sage server and recreates the xml file. Devs don't need to manually move anything.

Some details on downloading from the new site (#2 on my list above):

The download URL is not in the Sage.properties file so you can't just change it there (which would be easiest). The URL is in one of the jar files. So some options are:

1. Change your sage server host or your local home DNS (for those of us that run a caching DNS server at home) to point download.sagetv.com to the IP address of the "new" server. (Or use a CNAME to "redirect" it.) This might have other side effects if Sage server uses download.sagetv.com for other things.
2. Change the jar file to point to the "new" server. This might be possible but I don't have much experience with Java.
3. If the Sage site stops working completely, it's likely that Sage's built in update of the file would fail and the local copy of SageTVPlugins.xml would never be touched. If that's the case then you just need a script (or perhaps another plugin!) that would download the plugins file from the new site.

--John

You can tell Sage to stop updating the xml file from the Sage server (there's a prop in Sage.properties to control it). If it were me, I'd have a wiki page describing how to do that, how to replace the xml with the new one from the mirror and then I'd have a plugin that then took over updating the xml from the new mirror location. Once they install this plugin then there's nothing else left for them to do, but they will have to manually download and replace the xml file after an initial install.

Of course, someone also has to write the plugin to update the xml file from the new location. This one's actually trivial.

DNS hack also works, but can be a PITA (for devs) to debug if something goes wrong. Modding the URL in the JAR is also possible (probably), but just as much as a PITA, imho (and there are legal issues involved in this tactic). Someone writing a plugin would be the best sol'n, again, imho.

My view is that after a major buzz of activity for ~2 weeks after the announcement, it seems like traffic has already died down in these forums. I've read enough "I'm out of here" messages and even though all of this is anecdotal, at best, I just have this feeling that by the time we actually need a lot of these replacement tools there may not be much of a user base left to consume them. I'm even wondering what this community is going to look like in 30, 60, or 90 days from now much less 8-12 months from now, which is when I anticipate we may start needing a lot of these replacement tools.

[stuckless]

I'm not sure we need a plugin system anyways... Phoenix doesn't support them

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stuckless

I'm not sure we need a plugin system anyways... Phoenix doesn't support them

Correct.. Phoenix doesn't support the single greatest improvement sage made in v7.. ;-)

[jpwegas]

Originally Posted by Slugger

Devs don't need to manually move anything.

No, not if the entire thing is mirrored at the new site. I only meant that some devs may prefer that the new site NOT mirror their plugins, and that they would want to move them to be hosted elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Slugger

You can tell Sage to stop updating the xml file from the Sage server (there's a prop in Sage.properties to control it). If it were me, I'd have a wiki page describing how to do that, how to replace the xml with the new one from the mirror and then I'd have a plugin that then took over updating the xml from the new mirror location. Once they install this plugin then there's nothing else left for them to do, but they will have to manually download and replace the xml file after an initial install.

Oh, I didn't know you could disable it. That makes it even easier. A user would have to do something manual to get this all to work, this seems easier than hacking a jar file or tweaking DNS somehow.

Originally Posted by Slugger

My view is that after a major buzz of activity for ~2 weeks after the announcement, it seems like traffic has already died down in these forums. I've read enough "I'm out of here" messages and even though all of this is anecdotal, at best, I just have this feeling that by the time we actually need a lot of these replacement tools there may not be much of a user base left to consume them. I'm even wondering what this community is going to look like in 30, 60, or 90 days from now much less 8-12 months from now, which is when I anticipate we may start needing a lot of these replacement tools.

Agreed, I am not sure whether the "master" site is even needed if things really collapse and there are only a few hardcore devs/users left. In that case I think it would be easier to just publish the plugin xml file on googlecode and let any interested devs have commit access.

Still hopeful,

--John

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Correct.. Phoenix doesn't support the single greatest improvement sage made in v7.. ;-)

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Correct.. Phoenix doesn't support the single greatest improvement sage made in v7.. ;-)

Exactly. (I was joking btw ). Phoenix does support plugins (since it's a core feature), it's just we don't have a custom plugin manager yet for loading specific Phoenix STV ui mods.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stuckless

Exactly. (I was joking btw ). Phoenix does support plugins (since it's a core feature), it's just we don't have a custom plugin manager yet for loading specific Phoenix STV ui mods.

hey, i was joking too... but you're the one who brought it up. Are you guys currently working on the plugin UI for it, or is it just on the drawing board? I'm guessing that it doesn't work by switching back to the default plugin UI, as the prereq's would be all screwed up. That said, isn't the default's plugin UI pretty much a single widget branch, and should be able to be cut/pasted into phoenix at least until it can be phoenixized?

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

hey, i was joking too... but you're the one who brought it up. Are you guys currently working on the plugin UI for it, or is it just on the drawing board? I'm guessing that it doesn't work by switching back to the default plugin UI, as the prereq's would be all screwed up. That said, isn't the default's plugin UI pretty much a single widget branch, and should be able to be cut/pasted into phoenix at least until it can be phoenixized?

You can load all plugins from the core stv except UI mods, since UI mods are targeted for a specific stv name. Right now it's a drawing boad idea, and the consensus is that for the public beta we don't want UI plugins, since it would make trying to diagnose UI issues a little harder. But I think that before we go out of public beta, we'll have a plugin manager.

[dcardellini]

Been with sagetv for number of years now. In version 6, never moved from stock STV, never used plugins (so not familiar with underlying process).

In version 7, plugin/themes/etc. so easy, so automatic that I have become dependent on a number of them.

This thread is about maintaining a live "plug-in repository" outside of SAGE hosted server, in the event it is suddenly shut-down. The main topic on this thread is further updates/additions to these 3rd party efforts, and how to distribute these to the community.

My question is far more elementary. How do I get a backup of these third party plugins snapshoted today, and reinstall them in future in the event of a completely fresh install of V7 on a PC client?

I don't see files for these V7 plugins in the download section.

Sorry in advance if I haven't spent enought time digging.

We have to assume the plug could get pulled tomorrow, don't we? In the world of big business, Jeff could have nothing to do with this tomorrow, and I doubt his promises to maintain these forums are binding.

thx.

[hugenbdd]

Originally Posted by dcardellini

Been with sagetv for number of years now. In version 6, never moved from stock STV, never used plugins (so not familiar with underlying process).

In version 7, plugin/themes/etc. so easy, so automatic that I have become dependent on a number of them.

This thread is about maintaining a live "plug-in repository" outside of SAGE hosted server, in the event it is suddenly shut-down. The main topic on this thread is further updates/additions to these 3rd party efforts, and how to distribute these to the community.

My question is far more elementary. How do I get a backup of these third party plugins snapshoted today, and reinstall them in future in the event of a completely fresh install of V7 on a PC client?

I don't see files for these V7 plugins in the download section.

Sorry in advance if I haven't spent enought time digging.

We have to assume the plug could get pulled tomorrow, don't we? In the world of big business, Jeff could have nothing to do with this tomorrow, and I doubt his promises to maintain these forums are binding.

thx.

Hi
If you follow Sluggers post and run his groovy script, it will download all the plug-ins to a location on your pc. I have not tried it, but I'm pretty sure his script updates the xml to look at a "server" of your choice once, you DL all the plug-ins.

We are already somewhat prepared in case the plug-in repository goes down, so I think the concern has been eased by Slugger, his script, and several people who would be able to host a site if it goes away.

Dave

[dcardellini]

Originally Posted by hugenbdd

Hi
If you follow Sluggers post and run his groovy script, it will download all the plug-ins to a location on your pc. I have not tried it, but I'm pretty sure his script updates the xml to look at a "server" of your choice once, you DL all the plug-ins.

We are already somewhat prepared in case the plug-in repository goes down, so I think the concern has been eased by Slugger, his script, and several people who would be able to host a site if it goes away.

Dave

Excellent. I will probably take the lazy path and assume "somebody" will host this in the future when the plug does get pulled.


For the time being, if I want to snapshot my system, is there a directory of plugins I can backup, and simply dump back into a fresh install of OS/SageTV?

thx again for helping here.

[junkieofreality]

One question that I have not seen asked or answered is what happens to the Online menu option now that Sage TV is no longer going to be maintained. By this I mean the youtube videos, weather data and the like. Can this be updated through a plugin as well or will it take more more of a hands on approach to keep it functional?

[PhilH]

Originally Posted by junkieofreality

One question that I have not seen asked or answered is what happens to the Online menu option now that Sage TV is no longer going to be maintained. By this I mean the youtube videos, weather data and the like. Can this be updated through a plugin as well or will it take more more of a hands on approach to keep it functional?

I'd like to know this as well. We live in a rural area with horses & we view the weather in SageTV on a daily basis.

[speck55]

I have some idle server space and bandwidth - I had mentioned earlier about offering to open a forum software for those of us that have a need to continue using the product, once they pull the plugs on these forums.

I stand willing to also host a mirror of the plugin repository, but I'm not sure on a number of things:

1. Who's feet would I be potentially stepping on by doing any of these things?

2. Legal implications - am I mirroring someone else's copyrighted works (plugins) against their will? I'd like to imagine that since any user, right now, trial or licensed, or just running slugger's script, can download the plugins and their metadata, none should have a problem with a mirror?

3. I imagine any devs that would rather not have me mirror the plugins would just message me and I'd either remove their plugin from the XML file or have them provide me with the URL they'd rather host it from and modify the XML file to reflect so.

4. Submissions/updates: do I remain in a mirror-only mode where I refresh say nightly from the main repository until it is no longer reachable, then try and code a PHP frontend where dev's can submit/update? (FWIW, I had a glimmer of hope when I saw the blue "i" and saw an update to I think it was the Phoenix Tools or Batch Metadata very recently).

I've got about 3Mbit to spare (symmetrical) I figure, conservatively, based on what I use vs. what I have, and endless disk space and a 6-core proc that sees loads in the 0.01-0.08 ballpark.

I'd be happy to have people mirror my mirror, should it come to that, but I'd have to somehow limit that since bandwidth would be a bit limited to have multiple boxes mirroring nightly unless it was a differential mirror and not a full copydown. The 3Mbit should be plenty for actual STV installs to download and install their plugins from, I would think.

Ideas on domain names, folks?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by speck55

I have some idle server space and bandwidth - I had mentioned earlier about offering to open a forum software for those of us that have a need to continue using the product, once they pull the plugs on these forums.

I stand willing to also host a mirror of the plugin repository, but I'm not sure on a number of things:

1. Who's feet would I be potentially stepping on by doing any of these things?

2. Legal implications - am I mirroring someone else's copyrighted works (plugins) against their will? I'd like to imagine that since any user, right now, trial or licensed, or just running slugger's script, can download the plugins and their metadata, none should have a problem with a mirror?

3. I imagine any devs that would rather not have me mirror the plugins would just message me and I'd either remove their plugin from the XML file or have them provide me with the URL they'd rather host it from and modify the XML file to reflect so.

4. Submissions/updates: do I remain in a mirror-only mode where I refresh say nightly from the main repository until it is no longer reachable, then try and code a PHP frontend where dev's can submit/update? (FWIW, I had a glimmer of hope when I saw the blue "i" and saw an update to I think it was the Phoenix Tools or Batch Metadata very recently).

I've got about 3Mbit to spare (symmetrical) I figure, conservatively, based on what I use vs. what I have, and endless disk space and a 6-core proc that sees loads in the 0.01-0.08 ballpark.

I'd be happy to have people mirror my mirror, should it come to that, but I'd have to somehow limit that since bandwidth would be a bit limited to have multiple boxes mirroring nightly unless it was a differential mirror and not a full copydown. The 3Mbit should be plenty for actual STV installs to download and install their plugins from, I would think.

Ideas on domain names, folks?

MOST of the plugins currently available are NOT hosted on sagetv's servers anyways. Most devs use another server (dropbox, for instance) to searve up the files. Those plugins would be fine, just needing a source of the SageTVPlugins.xml file.