Community Comments on Google's Acquisition of SageTV

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Google will always primarily be an advertising company. In the past, they could care less about TV advertising, because it's market force has been dropping for decades. The only way to bring the price of television advertising back up, is to improve it's targeting. The only way to do that is to get accurate tracking information from the actual viewer (not just a barely representative nielson group). To do so, Google has to have information on WHAT and WHO is watching what. That is why they are now moving into tv.

The problem for us Sage users is one of the main benefits of Sage was the way it facilitated ad-skipping, either through a skip button, or comksip. Whatever Sage becomes under Google will not be as useful in this regard.

[wbarber69]

and yet not talk of REing the Sage core and going underground with it. Oh yeah I forgot they still moderate this forum.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by wayner

The problem for us Sage users is one of the main benefits of Sage was the way it facilitated ad-skipping, either through a skip button, or comksip. Whatever Sage becomes under Google will not be as useful in this regard.

That's not really a certainty, just an assumption at this point.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by wbarber69

and yet not talk of REing the Sage core and going underground with it. Oh yeah I forgot they still moderate this forum.

There's no real proprietary information IN the sagetv code to be reverse engineered. SageTV was successful in it's implementation. There'd be no real reason to reverse engineer anything, as opposed to just cloning most it's functionality in another open source product.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

There's no real proprietary information IN the sagetv code to be reverse engineered. SageTV was successful in it's implementation. There'd be no real reason to reverse engineer anything, as opposed to just cloning most it's functionality in another open source product.

Are you serious?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Are you serious?

yes, serious. Look at the capabilities it actually has. None of them are 'revolutionary' or 'one-of-a-kind'. There are other products out there that do each function sage does. What it DID do is combine those capabilities into a complete product.

About the biggest 'feature' of sagetv, was actually the XML based UI code, SageTV Studio, and the way plugins are handled. It is this core feature that set sage apart from the others, by allowing such limitless modification - but it's not a revolutionary feature, and not really even the 'best way' to do it by today's standards. (If starting from scratch on a project like this today, it would most likely be done via .net/mono assemblies, instead of XML based pseudo-code executed in a JVM).

My point was, it would be easier/better to build from scratch most the core functionality in a more future proof platform, than reverse engineer a system that, in my mind, was limited by the very platform it used.

This 'redesign' would also allow avoidance of many of the legacy issues that have been a point of contention/confusion since their inception. The split between 'clients' and 'extenders/placeshifters'. Every UI should exist as it's own 'client' code. If can still be 'processed' as a server process, for the limited capability devices like placeshifters/extenders, but each one would be it's own process, talking to the server process in the same way. An extender host process wouldn't even NEED to reside on the same physical machine as the server. As far as the server is concerned, it is just serving up data to a bunch of different connected clients (which can be anything from a web server, an android client, a pc based client, a hardware based extender, etc). Imagine, if starting from scratch, a client could be created on something as miniscule as a Raspberry Pi... The dependence on the existing legacy system seriously impedes that type of capability.

The strains on the JVM by the more recent UI's are proof positive that the use of sagetv is exceeding the java platform's capabilities. A shift to 64-bit would help by expanding the JVM's heap use, but sticking an 'expandable' system inside a single fixed memory bucket is never going to truly be 'expandable'.

[tmiranda]

Sorry, I disagree that it would be easier or better to start from scratch. Jeff, Andy and a few others spent YEARS adding functionality and removing bugs. Look at NextPVR and MythTV, those devs have also spent years on their products. What makes you think somebody else can create something as functional and relaible as Sage/WMC/NextPVR/MythTV in less time?

[silkshadow]

I totally agree with Fuzzy that SageTV needs to be cloned into an open source project. With the caveat that it stay compatible with existing plugins. This community should take a cue from the Meedio community, as we had the same thing happen there, just replace Google with Yahoo. It was a big blessing in the end. As I pointed out elsewhere, the end of Meedio was the birth of, not only MeediOS, but of things like the TVDB and the TMDB. It is my fervent hope, coming back to SageTV after all these years, that this is what will eventually happen.

I disagree that SageTV's combing everything into one was its only revolutionary feature. SageTV was the pioneer in HTPC apps for true client server operation. For many, many years (I started with v3) it was the only program where you could watch on one computer and move to another and it would continue from where you left off. This feature was the reason I stuck with it till v5, even though other apps were passing it in every other feature except for PVR. By the time v6 rolled around though, other apps were including this.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

yes, serious. Look at the capabilities it actually has. None of them are 'revolutionary' or 'one-of-a-kind'. There are other products out there that do each function sage does. What it DID do is combine those capabilities into a complete product.

Looking at just the DVR features, about the only thing I can think of that Sage had that was both unique and would need reverse engineering to duplicate is Intelligent Recording. As far as I can tell, DirecTV is the only one with something similar (Genie), oh, I guess Tivo has recommendations, but none of the other PC PVRs have an automatic recording/recommendation system. I'm not going to pretend it had a high correctness rate, I probably "Don't like"d 95% of what it suggested, but that 5% made it something I was going to miss if I moved to WMC.

Studio was "different" but I can't say better or worse than anyone else's UI/skinning system, and as far as the plugin system goes I think it was more a revolution for us Sage users than the "industry" as the original plugin "system" (which wasn't a plugin system at all, it was a patch and manual configuration system) was actually pretty horrible.

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Sorry, I disagree that it would be easier or better to start from scratch. Jeff, Andy and a few others spent YEARS adding functionality and removing bugs. Look at NextPVR and MythTV, those devs have also spent years on their products. What makes you think somebody else can create something as functional and relaible as Sage/WMC/NextPVR/MythTV in less time?

I would point out that NextPVR, MythTV, XBMC, MediaPortal, etc were all free/open source/donated development projects where as Sage was a commercial enterprise.

SageTV was not only Jeff's baby, it was his (likely more than) full time job, along with Andy and Demo, and George, and probably some others I'm forgetting. You can do a lot of work, a lot of good on a project when it's your primary and only focus, when it's what you do all day, when you don't have to be distracted to make your livelihood some other way, and when it's yours, and you have complete control over it.

On the flip side NextPVR is (I assume since it's free) a "hobby" (and sub, I don't mean any disrespect by that) so it can't get the level of attention that SageTV could from it's devs, and as far as MythTV, XBMC, MP, etc, those are community/OSS projects and I think by their very nature as distributed-development community projects will suffer from distractions and design by committee.

IMO Myth is held back by the fact that it's essentially Linux only and written by Linux nerds for Linux nerds. I've tried to use it but it gives off that "if you can't figure it out you don't deserve to use it" attitude that seems all to common in the Linux world, and there seems to be very little interest to make it a truly mainstream product.

XBMC just isn't focused on PVR at all, the core group there only cares about media.

Originally Posted by silkshadow

I totally agree with Fuzzy that SageTV needs to be cloned into an open source project. With the caveat that it stay compatible with existing plugins. This community should take a cue from the Meedio community, as we had the same thing happen there, just replace Google with Yahoo. It was a big blessing in the end. As I pointed out elsewhere, the end of Meedio was the birth of, not only MeediOS, but of things like the TVDB and the TMDB. It is my fervent hope, coming back to SageTV after all these years, that this is what will eventually happen.

IMO, if someone, or some group were to really want to go down that path, the better idea would be to build a Sage-calibre DVR backend for XBMC rather than trying to do everything from scratch again. XBMC is a great frontend with a lot of support, and that works on a lot of platforms, even small, cheap hardware platforms. If I were to try and rebuild Sage (which I have neither the skill nor inclination to attempt) I wouldn't try and rebuild it, I'd try and bring some other successful project up to the level of Sage as a DVR. Seems that would be a lot more efficient and likely more successful than trying to rebuild something entirely new from scratch.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by silkshadow

I totally agree with Fuzzy that SageTV needs to be cloned into an open source project. With the caveat that it stay compatible with existing plugins.

I do agree that open sourcing Sage would be the best thing that could happen. I still think starting over from scratch is a LOT of work.

[emveepee]

The problem with any SageTV project at this point is that the user community is so restricted, decisions will need to be made on whether to try and maintain compatibility with old skinning systems, plugins and browsers or to try and progress. I expect the closed circle is going to want compatibility which is going to hang a noose on any future project it will drag everything done into a massive RE project.

There is a second problem because there is an assumption that the skill set build the things that Frey did (not the plugins, addons and skins) exists in the community. I am not sure that is the case, and why wouldn't those devs consider working on improving existing mature projects like Mediaportal, MythTV, TVHeadend, VDR or 4TheRecord?

I know when GBPVR became NextPVR it broke everything and it created a lot of dissatisfaction but at the end of the day it is now better to the improved engine, although many people still comment on the missing plugins. I expect that an open soruce SageTV would be like that for months or year, two steps forward one step back.

However after writing all that, you have to wonder if any development effort is really worth it since the final result is a likely no better than what exists today.

Martin

[cat6man]

Has anything besides SageTV come up with the equivalent of Slugger's SRE (sage recording extender) that extends sports recordings that run outside their normally scheduled time?

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by cat6man

Has anything besides SageTV come up with the equivalent of Slugger's SRE (sage recording extender) that extends sports recordings that run outside their normally scheduled time?

I started writing an interface to Slugger's API for NextPVR but all the users wanted it to re-schedule too which Slugger didn't recommend so I postponed (but not abandoned) working on it. The Canadian shows have been on schedule this year so it is a lower priority too.

Martin

[Slugger]

Originally Posted by silkshawdow

I totally agree with Fuzzy that SageTV needs to be cloned into an open source project. With the caveat that it stay compatible with existing plugins.

Originally Posted by emveepee

The problem with any SageTV project at this point is that the user community is so restricted, decisions will need to be made on whether to try and maintain compatibility with old skinning systems, plugins and browsers or to try and progress. I expect the closed circle is going to want compatibility which is going to hang a noose on any future project it will drag everything done into a massive RE project.

There is a second problem because there is an assumption that the skill set build the things that Frey did (not the plugins, addons and skins) exists in the community. I am not sure that is the case, and why wouldn't those devs consider working on improving existing mature projects like Mediaportal, MythTV, TVHeadend, VDR or 4TheRecord?

So many areas to touch on... let's see...


Open sourcing Sage code: Seems unlikely that Google would allow it or even that Jeff would want to. There's nothing patentable except probably for the code around the IR and Studio stuff, but open sourcing the core puts Sage/Google at a disadvantage because they invite direct competition to themselves. Let's say I'm interested in creating the "open source Sage" (I'm not, but let's say I am). The biggest barrier is time... just to get to a point of what Sage is today would take a dev team way, way too long. Why bother when the Sage core is right there? Especially if Google ever plans to release their fibre box to us regular folks. But give me the core source code and then all of a sudden I'm able to tweak and "improve upon" the current core as I see fit? Well that's a whole different ball game. Now I'm less likely to buy the "non-fibre" fibre box thingy if/when I'm able to.

Skill set to open source: That, I promise, is not the reason no such attempt has been tried. The skills exist on this forum, undoubtedly, to produce something similar. But, to my knowledge, every 3rd party dev for this platform is an unpaid volunteer - all with real 9-5 jobs + "real life" things. I now speak for myself and say that the only condition under which I'd even entertain the possibility of even thinking about trying to write such an application - open source or otherwise - would be if it became a full time job; a paying job. I personally have no interest in that, but that's the kind of effort it would require, imho.

Other issues: For me, the greatest open source rewrite of Sage is of no value to me without extenders to attach to the system. And no hobbyist/volunteer/OSS project is ever going to be able to develop and bring to market the HDx00 equivalent. Won't happen - ever. You think designing and implementing the backend is a full time job? Try working out the logistics of getting into the hardware business. So even if I wrote the Sage open source replacement, I'd never use it as long as my HDx00s are alive. You could maybe use a Boxee or whatever to attach to this open source rewrite, but making an existing streamer fit is never going to give the same experience as creating a streamer for your backend (we've been trying that for over a year now on this forum).

Move efforts into existing project (XBMC/NextPVR/etc.): I suspect someday some devs from here might do that, but it's not like you can just subscribe to the mailing list of your project of choice and say "hey, let's make this project work with the SageTV backend." Besides the backlash, who really wants to integrate with a closed source backend that is never going to address any issues that might be encountered? Not I. And in the case of NextPVR and "just helping improving that project." Certainly possible, but visions are likely to collide and, at the very least, slow down progress.

For me, it's time, how much time do I really want to dedicate to things? I'll be first to admit that after 4-6 months (wow, 6 months already??) since I've really done any serious work on this platform, the amount of work I've put into creating the Schedules Direct plugin over the last month or so is enough to keep me busy, but interested. The EPG work has led me to updating other plugins so they won't break when I'm ready to release the EPG plugin, which has lead to some frustrating evenings trying to fix old bugs that have surfaced, which has lead to a few builds of various other plugins. All of this is just in support of the EPG work. I've learned that I was enjoying the Sage retirement and though I'm interested in finishing this EPG work, I certainly am just as interested in heading back to the proverbial sandy beaches of retirement! I suspect the other devs who have long since abandoned this platform feel the same way. The ones who are still around probably wouldn't need as much convincing these days to come join me on the "beach".

I know when GBPVR became NextPVR it broke everything and it created a lot of dissatisfaction but at the end of the day it is now better to the improved engine, although many people still comment on the missing plugins. I expect that an open soruce SageTV would be like that for months or year, two steps forward one step back.

However after writing all that, you have to wonder if any development effort is really worth it since the final result is a likely no better than what exists today.

Martin

I think if we were given the source to build from, obviously we'd get something "better" simply as a result of active development. Not necessarily "better" features, but "better" in the sense that we could fix bugs, etc. that we all know exist and were due for fixing in the never released 7.1.10 build.

If the source wasn't opened up and it was simply a new project. Again, I think you'd get to somewhere "better", but it would just take a hell of a lot longer. You'd have to get even with Sage first and that's not exactly something you do in a year, imho. Maybe with a large enough team, but it would have to be a pretty large team and/or a team able to commit 40+ hours a week, every week.

My gut tells me those people willing/able to make that kind of commitment simply do not exist.

Originally Posted by cat6man

Has anything besides SageTV come up with the equivalent of Slugger's SRE (sage recording extender) that extends sports recordings that run outside their normally scheduled time?

Well, once upon a time I was a MythTV user and the first incarnation of this type of feature actually existed as "Myth Recording Extender (MRE)", you search the Myth users mailing list archives and you'll see it talked about there. When my myth box blew up in the winter of 2006 I only had my main Windows desktop, which I couldn't load Linux onto at the time and I couldn't justify building an entire new system. Instead, I threw my tuner cards into the Windows desktop and went looking for something temporarily until the new year when I could build a new system. Well, after short stints with a few other products, I stumbled upon Sage in the spring of 2007 and when it came time to build that new server, I ended up throwing XP on it and never looking back.

Despite its popularity, the MRE plugin for Myth quickly died off. I transferred the Sourceforge project to a couple people who tried to carry on with it, but as soon as there was a Myth protocol change committed to main in the myth project, that broke MRE and no one ever bothered to get it working again. I still get emails periodically about it (not but one or two per year now), but no one with the skill and/or desire to get it working again ever has. So I've never seen this feature in any other PVR app. I was approached a few months back by a larger media company about accessing and using the livepvrdata.com service for implementing something similar in one of their products, but those talks didn't go very far. But I suspect they're instead working on something of their own so there may be someone working on something like SRE, but I have yet to see it.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by cat6man

Has anything besides SageTV come up with the equivalent of Slugger's SRE (sage recording extender) that extends sports recordings that run outside their normally scheduled time?

No, I don't think there is anything out there like it, but then again, it is not really a sagetv exclusive item. The SRE is more a web service than a plugin. That same web service could be used by any PVR system in the same way. It just so happens that Slugger likes sage. :-)

[Slugger]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I started writing an interface to Slugger's API for NextPVR but all the users wanted it to re-schedule too which Slugger didn't recommend so I postponed (but not abandoned) working on it. The Canadian shows have been on schedule this year so it is a lower priority too.

Martin

Right... I totally forgot about that. This was the .Net port of the livepvrdata.com API that I did. Man, that seems like a long time ago when I did that. Right, so there is another possible implementation of this feature that could see the light of day!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Slugger

Other issues: For me, the greatest open source rewrite of Sage is of no value to me without extenders to attach to the system. And no hobbyist/volunteer/OSS project is ever going to be able to develop and bring to market the HDx00 equivalent.

I'm not sure that's entirely true, XBMC has some interesting options. AppleTV, etc. OpenELEC has builds for the Xtreamer, and I'm planning on playing with OE on a i7 and see how that works. Maybe without all the Windows baggage and without the normal Linux headaches, XBMC on a purpose built PC could be a replacement for an HD300 (time will tell).

Point is, you don't necessarily have to build your own hardware anymore.

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by stanger89

...Maybe without all the Windows baggage and without the normal Linux headaches, XBMC on a purpose built PC could be a replacement for an HD300 (time will tell).

Point is, you don't necessarily have to build your own hardware anymore.

This is very true, look what XBMC has done with the rPI, and the dedicated PIVIOS builds.

The only real problem I see is getting support for some of the newer tech which is costly, like CableCard.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Skybolt

The only real problem I see is getting support for some of the newer tech which is costly, like CableCard.

True, but that's the same situation for ANY non-7MC solution.

[wayner]

But you could continue to use other software, like WinMC or SageTV as your backend and just use XBMC on Raspberry Pis, or something similar, as the front end. In my case I see no reason to switch from Sage as my backend unless component outputs are disabled from my cable boxes (and you can't get around that with something like the HD-Fury) or UHDTV becomes mainstream. But I think that I have a lot more time until either of those things happen.

You can argue that the frontend is more of an issue as you can't get HD-300s or HD-200s but I paid up and bought some so unless they all start to fail due to capacitor plague or something similar I am good.