Nest has been bought by Google - sound familiar?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

And as an HVAC mechanical engineer, I will say, yes, you are correct.... but.... how many buildings are built right?

(okay, you're in California, where they are probably built better than most anywhere else due to your insane building and mechanical codes)

Most people's houses are crazy leaky, and poorly insulated even if they didn't leak. And it's not like commercial buildings are any better... over the past month when we've had some "fifty year" temperatures (-10F), some of our clients - one being a major worldwide financial company - have been wondering why they have pipes freezing, and opening up ceilings to discover gaps in construction where you could literally see daylight. Buildings built by large, well-known, typically reputable construction companies. So you can imagine what your "get 'em up as fast as you can" residential house builders are doing.

Long story short, while I agree that we "shouldn't" need thermostats like Nest, the sad state of construction actually gives them a market.

Right, but even in most of those cases, you can spend less than the cost of a nest paying to have a blower door test done a buying some tubes of caulk and some cans of foam, and end up saving more than you would with setbacks. It doesn't take a lot of work to find major leaks, and cutting infiltration/exfiltration by only 20% is likely to save more than the nest will. But I suppose it won't look as cool...

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Right, but even in most of those cases, you can spend less than the cost of a nest paying to have a blower door test done a buying some tubes of caulk and some cans of foam, and end up saving more than you would with setbacks. It doesn't take a lot of work to find major leaks, and cutting infiltration/exfiltration by only 20% is likely to save more than the nest will. But I suppose it won't look as cool...

you are such a buzzkill fuzzy

I will admit, it's too expensive and I will also admit it's very attractive. It's also extremely easy to use and for me the combo of ease of use, accessibility on my ios&android devices as well as the extra bit of efficiency is completely worth it to me.
I do live in the ideal space for such a device though. I'm in a top-floor, 17foot-ceiling loft-style condo built in 2002 with windows covering two of the four sides of the space. It's built fairly well, but even with good windows it's not as energy efficient as it could/should be. It's also completely open with no rooms completely closed-in so my nest is located right at the center where you go through to get from Kitchen/LR/Office to Bedroom/Bedroom/Entry/Bath/Bath areas. It's really perfect for my situation although I'm sure I could do fine with something else. I also haven't had any problems with my Nest so that helps me feel pretty good about it. I also have done some work to take care of any easy-to-fix inefficiencies as you mention - yes that's very cheap and easy to do, but why not do it all. Complaining that the Nest is overkill is like complaining that a 1TB drive is overkill for a HTPC server.

Disclaimer: I didn't buy my Nest, it was a gift from the realtor when I bought the place last year.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by Brent

Disclaimer: I didn't buy my Nest, it was a gift from the realtor when I bought the place last year.

Nothing is a waste of money when you got it free.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Nothing is a waste of money when you got it free.

No doubt. Don't worry though, I've spent plenty of money on things I didn't need - and most of those things have been shiny, new gadgets

By the way, that Nest thermostat is in such as prominent location in our place that everyone sees it who visits and it nearly always is a topic of discussion. The old thermostat was just ugly and we can't have that can we.

[Fuzzy]

That's something I've heard before - the Nest is 'so easy to use'. What does that mean? A thermostat should have one control you manipulate - temperature setpoint - whether it's done with a dial, or +/- buttons it doesn't really matter.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

I've looked at the Nest. For such an expensive and popular product they certainly have a lot of problems. I read lots of people having issues with the active mounting plate failing after even small voltage spikes.

That's not unlike Apple. I like Apple's products and have a ton of them but many people were experiencing random reboots of the iPad Air and you didn't hear too much about it. They seem to get much more leeway compared to many of their competitiors.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

That's something I've heard before - the Nest is 'so easy to use'. What does that mean? A thermostat should have one control you manipulate - temperature setpoint - whether it's done with a dial, or +/- buttons it doesn't really matter.

Ever "programmed" a basic programmable thermostat?
Here is a manual for one similar to the one I had at my last home.
How cool! You can program a different temp for weekdays and another one for weekends!!! But if your work schedule varies from that much get ready to muck with the settings over and over and it will still never be quite right. I could go into more detail here but you hopefully get my point. I understand there are other, nicer cheap thermostats out there, but many folks don't even have ones as good as this one.


On the Nest I can micromanage it to death if I want to or it can do it for me and it's set for every day of the week the way we actually live. I can if I want change the settings while I sit on my couch or at a restaurant on vacation if I forgot to turn down the thermostat etc etc. Changing the settings manually involves opening up the calendar and dragging the time/temp settings where you want them - or you can just let the Nest set it based on when you are home. To me, that is "easy to use." To someone else it might not be. I think if you live in Riverside, California where your "extreme" highs are in the low-to-mid-90's and your "extreme" lows are mid-40's you probably don't consider it such a big deal. But here in the beautiful midwest a simple thing like a thermostat is a menial, but important thing.

[Fuzzy]

That's what i was discussing earlier - the Nest is a workaround for a problem that is better fixed than worked around. Easy to program the calendar is all well and good, but the only reason you need to set a calendar is because the structure itself is insufficient. That said, on my $120 stat, it does full 7-day programmability, plus 3 stage heat, 2 stage cooling, outside air control, humidification and dehumidification - and it still only took me about 20 minutes to set up. once. 3 years ago. It has occupied and unoccupied modes, with predictive setpoint adjusts (learns how long it will take to get to the occupied setpoint and adjusts early) - of course, my occupied and unoccupied setpoints are only like 3 degrees apart, because my house is well built (well, it was actually horribly built - but I've gone around and fixed it). Nothing the Nest does is all that 'new', you're paying for fluff and packaging (well, most are - you already said you didn't pay for yours).

I get it, especially from a gadget-centric guy - but i don't even control my TV from my phone - why would I care if I could control the t-stat i never touch from it?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Tbut i don't even control my TV from my phone - why would I care if I could control the t-stat i never touch from it?

You see, that's a big difference. You don't have to touch your thermostat. Things are pretty much the same every day there. Most places here in the good ole Midwest that weren't built with the best of energy efficiency won't ever be able to keep temps steady from each weather change (which is often drastic changes in weather from day-to-day) and therefore you Might very well need to adjust the thermostat. And believe it or not, there is not a way to make a home perfectly insulated against extreme weather and more frequent weather changes.

But I do understand you. You don't want or need it and don't care what it looks like so why spend $ on it. I don't think the Nest is for everyone or anything, but it is a perfect solution for me and probably a great solution for many others whether you believe it or not.

PS: I'm not excited that Google bought Nest either

Disclaimer #2: I DO control my TV from my phone and tablet fairly frequently...

Last question for you. What thermostat do you own?

[pjpjpjpj]

Hey, fuzzy, nice perks of working in the biz. You have outside air intake on your residential system? Is that a California law or did you just do it because you could? In most parts of the country, houses are so leaky that there's no need for outdoor air intake through the AC. Even if you caulk every crack after a fan-door test, they still don't require it by code, because it's assumed the house is leaky (or that doors or windows are opened frequently enough to cover it).

By the way, if you haven't touched your system in 3 years, I hope you are at least replacing or re-calibrating your sensors, since thermostats drift within a year and humidistats get completely off within 3-6 months (often less). That's the biggest problem we have in renovations of existing buildings - owners don't like hearing that they need to replace or recalibrate dozens of sensors if they want their building to work the way it was designed.

P.S. I have a $39.99 programmable thermostat that has 4 settings per day for "weekday" and 2 settings per day for "weekend". Of course, with a stay-at-home wife, and two small kids who like to run around in their underwear, I can't ever really have setbacks anyway, so it's sorta going to waste at this point.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Brent

You see, that's a big difference. You don't have to touch your thermostat. Things are pretty much the same every day there. Most places here in the good ole Midwest that weren't built with the best of energy efficiency won't ever be able to keep temps steady from each weather change (which is often drastic changes in weather from day-to-day) and therefore you Might very well need to adjust the thermostat. And believe it or not, there is not a way to make a home perfectly insulated against extreme weather and more frequent weather changes.

But I do understand you. You don't want or need it and don't care what it looks like so why spend $ on it. I don't think the Nest is for everyone or anything, but it is a perfect solution for me and probably a great solution for many others whether you believe it or not.

PS: I'm not excited that Google bought Nest either

Disclaimer #2: I DO control my TV from my phone and tablet fairly frequently...

Last question for you. What thermostat do you own?

Having to change the temperature setpoint seasonally is not a matter of outside temperature. It's a matter of indoor humidity. If you are comfortable at 74°F 30%rh in the winter, you'll be comfortable at 74°F 30%rh in the summer. The difference is, in a home WITHOUT humidity control, is the thermostat is left untouched, set for 74°F, in the winter that 74°F may be at 12%rh, and in the summer, that 74°F might be 55%rh. Those are two VERY different comfort ranges. The reason I don't have to touch my thermostat is not because the weather doesn't change, because it very much does here (Riverside is not San Diego). outside humidity can and does swing from 45%rh to 4%rh in the timespan of 25 minutes as wind direction changes (I am right where the marine moisture interacts with the mojave desert). What makes me not have to touch my thermostat is having a humidifier with the setpoint at 30%. Having a tight home simply means the humidifier doesn't have to run as long - it's not a matter of heat leaking into/out of the home, it's all about the moisture.

Kansas City varies from average dewpoint of 23°F in the winter, to 63°F in the summer. THAT is why you have to change the thermostat - if you had a way to control indoor humidity, you would not have to do so.

Oh.. The thermostat I have in my house is a Braeburn 6400. It's nice, certainly not a 'premium' model, but it was cheap, and have full humidity control. I don't even use most the features (multi-stage, economizer, etc). Only thing I don't like about it is it doesn't believe there is such a thing as Hot & Dry weather, so it won't run the humidifier when in cooling mode (which in my desert climate days, would be desirable).

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Hey, fuzzy, nice perks of working in the biz. You have outside air intake on your residential system? Is that a California law or did you just do it because you could? In most parts of the country, houses are so leaky that there's no need for outdoor air intake through the AC. Even if you caulk every crack after a fan-door test, they still don't require it by code, because it's assumed the house is leaky (or that doors or windows are opened frequently enough to cover it).

By the way, if you haven't touched your system in 3 years, I hope you are at least replacing or re-calibrating your sensors, since thermostats drift within a year and humidistats get completely off within 3-6 months (often less). That's the biggest problem we have in renovations of existing buildings - owners don't like hearing that they need to replace or recalibrate dozens of sensors if they want their building to work the way it was designed.

P.S. I have a $39.99 programmable thermostat that has 4 settings per day for "weekday" and 2 settings per day for "weekend". Of course, with a stay-at-home wife, and two small kids who like to run around in their underwear, I can't ever really have setbacks anyway, so it's sorta going to waste at this point.

No, I don't have an outside air on my unit - i was simply listing the features of the thermostat I have. It supports controlling an economizer damper. I actually do want to install one one of these days, but that's so far down on the priority list it'll probably never get done. I'm likely to build/install a chiller and a couple small fan-coils before that happens.

As for calibration, I've checked periodically, comparing to my routinely calibrated digital psychrometer, and over 3 years, it's drifted 1°F high on temperature, and 3-5% low on rh. Not enough to concern myself with.

[tmiranda]

My summary of what I learend from this this thread:

- Buy a Nest if you like cool gadgets.
- Buy a decent programmable therostat if you want the job done in the most economical manner.
- Plug up the holes in your house.

[tmiranda]

See the attached for a laugh

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

See the attached for a laugh

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

See the attached for a laugh

Awesome

[KryptoNyte]

Maybe some folks will find this interesting ...

I was in a seminar today for professional engineers regarding energy code for buildings. They brought their Phd's with them, and their various studies, and although I usually give only as much weight to those studies as the product they're selling, these numbers were backed up better than most snake oil.

- Adding layers of insulation to your building (up to and including increasing R-value by a factor of 2), energy savings, less than 1%.

- Heat pump systems, energy savings up to about 40%

- Geothermal systems, energy savings up to 70%

- Setting up schedules for the HVAC systems (schools were targeted in this study), energy savings up to 40%

It made me think of devices like the Nest, or even far cheaper options like the $35 programmable thermostats you can get a Walmart.

[hawkmoon]

To his subject:
It’s like cats at the moment when some one else feeds them salmon with skin instead of regular food they will abandon you. The is no loyalty.
I did have both: Kats and Sagetv. And for all I can they can both of the can die in vain.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

- Adding layers of insulation to your building (up to and including increasing R-value by a factor of 2), energy savings, less than 1%.

- Heat pump systems, energy savings up to about 40%

- Geothermal systems, energy savings up to 70%

- Setting up schedules for the HVAC systems (schools were targeted in this study), energy savings up to 40%

Going through those as if numbered:
1) Depends on way too many other factors. And "factor of 2" varies quite a bit if you are taking R-2 to R-4, vs. taking R-20 to R-40....

2) Completely depends on the weather in the region.

3) Again, depends on the weather, and the upfront cost is often so great that the payback period is ridiculous when compared to a standard system.

4) Again, depends on the system. Schedules are not just a good idea, they are code-mandatory in most places. But scheduling a poorly-designed (or chosen) system in a leaky building could make things worse.

In my experience, the biggest trap you can fall into when guys talk about stuff like this is believing that their claims are valid across the board. There are waaaaaaay too many factors involved to make blanket statements like this.

[KryptoNyte]

PJ, the mentions that I made were merely summaries of their findings in real world experience, as well as comparisons to detailed software for whole building energy analysis.

Regarding any of the topics you mention, they have tested cities all the way from Florida to Canada, pretty much every climate zone from 1 to 7, although they do not have any data from zone 8. They had extremely detailed results on payback schedule for all technologies in all climate zones (except 8). Their primary study was based in Kentucky to begin, then branched out from there.

Designers here in the US usually use a very simple tool called Comcheck to determine if building designs meet the International Building Code minimum requirements for energy conservation (with regard to heat transfer values for given building elements, it uses a tradeoff system). I wouldn't call Comcheck a great tool as it's data is aging, but it does give a prescriptive minimum that appears to be fairly effective. To clarify the comment on adding more insulation - they indicated that adding R-value beyond the code minimum has virtually no affect (less than 1% upon doubling the minimums) in any climate zone. As an example, the plotted data curves they showed indicated the 1% increase in energy savings as *wall* R-values go from 10 to 50, yet the curve was very steep from 1 to 10, so one would need to get their walls up to an average R=10, including fenestrations, before that truth kicks in.

My level of detail or knowledge on the topic in this post can't compare to their studies - the general idea, however, was very clear - the MEP's are really in control of the energy savings in commercial buildings, which you could translate into residential structures as meaning that things like the Nest can have a very positive impact on your energy bill. There are also more economical devices as originally mentioned.

Folks here in the Sage forum are usually capable of putting things into perspective - so if you live in a climate where you rarely have to run equipment to control the environment in your home, things like the Nest (and even cheaper options) probably don't make sense. If you live in a climate that requires a controlled environment for more than 50% of the year I suppose, these solutions might make good sense, and you could easily test this in your own home for less than $50. I really don't have time to go into further detail, but if you wanted more info, I can probably put you into contact with the folks running these tests.