Any 4K capture devices on the horizon?

[wayner]

My cable company, Rogers cable, announced yesterday that they will start providing sports content in 4K such as all Toronto Blue Jays home games in 2016 and 20 NHL games. This obviously requires a new STB that supports 4K. And it requires a 4K TV, and potentially an AVR that supports 4K or can pass it through if you use an AVR, and why wouldn't you with a very high end TV.

Are there any capture devices on the horizon from someone like Hauppauge that would capture 4K video?

[Fuzzy]

I can't imagine any new video pathways being unprotected enough to allow capture of 4K.

[Monedeath]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I can't imagine any new video pathways being unprotected enough to allow capture of 4K.

Well, eventually there will be a home video market for 4k, so there will be some kind of ability that is developed. But as to unencrypted access to commercial 4k content, yeah, I doubt there will be a (legal) means of capturing in an unprotected (not encrypted) format, unless it somehow becomes an OTA broadcast standard which is unlikely at best I'd think.

[wayner]

True it is unlikely there will be an analog hole but there are devices(HDMI splitters) that strip HDCP from an HDMI signal so I am hoping something like that may come for 4K signals that are, presumably, coming over an HDMI 2.0 connection.

Assuming that works then an HD-PVR 2 or Collosus type device that is upgraded to handle 4K should work as they can handle unencrypted HDMI signals today - but they are limited to 1080p. And maybe HDCP is much harder to break in the HDMI 2.0 spec, dos anyone know if that is the case.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by wayner

And maybe HDCP is much harder to break in the HDMI 2.0 spec, dos anyone know if that is the case.

Apparently not:
http://keydigital.com/items.asp?Item...22&Company=KEY

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Apparently not:
http://keydigital.com/items.asp?Item...22&Company=KEY

You sure that strips the HDCP?

This might lead you to think so:
HDMI Correction: Resolves common HDMI integration obstacles such as HDCP, EDID, HPD, and audio breakout

But this would lead me to think it passes it through but doesn't strip it:
Licensing: Fully licensed and compatible with HDMI up to 4KUHD/60Fps and HDCP 1.0 to HDCP 2.2 technologies
and
I2C Communication: EDID and HDCP transparency from Display to Source

[stanger89]

They're very careful with their wording, but it appears to:
http://www.cepro.com/article/key_dig...pliant_device/
A couple folks have them on AVS Forum using them with HDCP 2.2 streamers (nVidia Shield, 4K Netflix) working with non-HDCP 2.2 displays.

There's also a new HD Fury coming soon too.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Apparently not:
http://keydigital.com/items.asp?Item...22&Company=KEY

And a real bargain at $350

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

And a real bargain at $350

Compared to a new display, especially if you're talking projectors, it is.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Wayneb

The only 4K capture devices I know of are in the pro video markets,
try AJA or Blackmagic Design.

I am looking for something that would work with Sage. This is the one thing that would really move me away from Sage in the future.

Would it be that hard for something like an HD-PVR to get a Next Gen chip that would be able to handle the high bitrate of 4K? The original HD-PVR was introduced over 7 years ago - surely newer chips would be capable of handling 4K/2160p which would require about 4X the power of 1080p.

[Wayneb]

I don't see a 4K hdpvr from Hauppauge anytime soon, maybe never since you need to capture over HDMI and it is unlikely any set top boxes will deliver unecrypted signals out of their box. The pro capture devices could probably be adapted to work with SageTV.

[KeithAbbott]

Not sure I quite understand the appeal of 4K. For me, I would much rather see 1080p with less compression or no compression (or lossless compression), and a resulting higher PQ and fewer artifacts. A 4X increase in pixel count with the same compression and artifacts that we have to deal with today barely seems better. Maybe it's just me, though...

[wayner]

But don't forget that 1080p doesn't really exist for TV - you get either 720p or 1080i and in many instances it is encoded in MPEG-2 which is very inefficient compared to HEVC/H.265. Why wouldn't you want higher resolution with more colour depth?

And why wouldn't the technology exist to do this? My understanding is that the original HD-PVR essentially used the same chips that are/were used by video cameras to capture live video. These days many consumer devices are coming out with 4K video capabilities (GoPro, DJI Phantom3 drone, iPhone 6S) so 4k video capture is probably at least as widespread and comercially viable in late 2015 as 1080p capture was in early 2008.

FYI -here is the info from Rogers:

How will Rogers be delivering 4K TV?
At launch, we’ll offer a 4K set top box, which will work with 4K TVs so you can watch 4K content (on Netflix, YouTube, Etc.). Over the next year, we’ll bring among the first 4K content broadcast to the Canadian TV market. Our customers will access over 500 hours of movies, TV shows and live sports broadcasts and / or streams in 4K beginning in 2016, including:
Every Toronto Blue Jays 2016 season home game (81) broadcast in 4K with HDR live on Sportsnet.
Starting January 23rd, 2016 with Toronto Maple Leafs vs. Montreal Canadiens followed by one regular season NHL game per week broadcast in 4K with HDR live on Sportsnet™

So no mention of the exact STB or interface - in the past Rogers has primarily used SA/Cisco boxes.

FYI - for those of you that aren't in Canada - Rogers is very vertically integrated as they are the largest cable company, one of three major cell phone carriers, own one of the major sports channels, own 100% of the Toronto Blue Jays and own 50% of the Toronto Maple Leafs + Raptors + FC. This has some disadvantages but the advantage is that they can be an early adopter at 4K as they own all pieces of the chain.

[Wayneb]

I actually had Rogers Cable in Southern California many, many years ago.

4K capture devices with hardware encoders are available but you might not like the price, some might only capture over SDI.

For there to be a 4k capture device for consumer use you need a big enough market, the HD capture devices are mostly being used for game capture, I believe the newer consoles can capture video on there own now. To capture video content from your cable box you have to strip the copy protection.Why would Hauppauge want to make an HD PVR device for 4K if there is no legal way to get that stream into the box?

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Wayneb

Why would Hauppauge want to make an HD PVR device for 4K if there is no legal way to get that stream into the box?

There is also no legal way to strip copy protection from 1080i/p and 720p HDMI interfaces but Hauppauge has devices with HDMI inputs.

But 4K gaming consoles could be a legitimate reason to do this. The problem is that I don't believe the XB1 or PS4 have 4K outputs and the next generation is a long ways off. Plus the boxes now capture some of your gameplay which negates the need for a capture device.

I am also worried about the future of Hauppauge as their revenue is a fraction of what it was a few years ago. In July they said that they had retained an investment bank to explore strategic alternatives.

This is just wishful thinking on my part - to be able to continue to use SageTV in a future state where TV has moved to 4K.

[Wayneb]

Originally Posted by wayner

There is also no legal way to strip copy protection from 1080i/p and 720p HDMI interfaces but Hauppauge has devices with HDMI inputs.

And people record their XBOX and Playstation game videos over HDMI, Elgato makes a capture device that can record 1080P at 60 fps over HDMI for game captures.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by wayner

There is also no legal way to strip copy protection from 1080i/p and 720p HDMI interfaces but Hauppauge has devices with HDMI inputs.

But 4K gaming consoles could be a legitimate reason to do this. The problem is that I don't believe the XB1 or PS4 have 4K outputs and the next generation is a long ways off. Plus the boxes now capture some of your gameplay which negates the need for a capture device.

I am also worried about the future of Hauppauge as their revenue is a fraction of what it was a few years ago. In July they said that they had retained an investment bank to explore strategic alternatives.

This is just wishful thinking on my part - to be able to continue to use SageTV in a future state where TV has moved to 4K.

The most 'interesting' options may actually be a commercial DVR product based on SageTV. It being open source does make this a real possibility.

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

Not sure I quite understand the appeal of 4K. For me, I would much rather see 1080p with less compression or no compression (or lossless compression), and a resulting higher PQ ...

I'm also in this camp. I don't believe that the incremental investment in a 4K front projector will be worth it anytime soon.

On another note: was I the only one confused by the Point/Counterpoint discourse between "wayner" and "Wayneb"?

[Monedeath]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

The most 'interesting' options may actually be a commercial DVR product based on SageTV. It being open source does make this a real possibility.

They'd have to get permission from Google first, the people contributing on GitHub who were paying attention can attest to this, it may be open source, and they will credit contributors, but Google still controls the code for commercial purposes.

[Monedeath]

Originally Posted by wayner

I am also worried about the future of Hauppauge as their revenue is a fraction of what it was a few years ago. In July they said that they had retained an investment bank to explore strategic alternatives.

This is just wishful thinking on my part - to be able to continue to use SageTV in a future state where TV has moved to 4K.

Consider also that the SD DVR is SD covering their bases moving forward. They get bonus points for managing to get crowd funding for their effort so they aren't carrying any outright debt on the effort so long as they stay in budget.