Sage TV service hangs on startup with little info

[deliberate]

For those you*new* to SageTV, this is just a set of personal opinions, but perhaps this might be something well worth reviewing in detail before you commmit/purchase ... - or not-

Please forgive me, I've been using (and bragging on) Sage for several years now, but this struggle gets to be too much ... (and I've now quit bragging ...)

I've beeen running running sage 5.0.4 (started with 2.1) on a dedicated, specifically built-for Win2k machine for quite some time now (and all-the-while loudly bragging on Sage to all my friends/family) as a great alternative to commercial DVRs. For the most part, Sage has worked well and I've been very happy with it. No longer ...

However, when Sage fails - it *[word edited out by moderator]*. It seems impossible to troubleshoot, and Sage would seem to require the skills of an uber-expert and the termperment of Job to get thru. When it fails, it just fails without any saving grace (IMO). I know about this: it's failing for me now ... Sage has *NO* grace when it fails, you are just totally out of luck.

Now please understand that I've written code (but not in this area) for over 35 years (started with computers professionally in 1969) and I've always thought that applications should try their best to help their users when things go wrong. IMO, Sage just doesn't do this, certainly not in my case.

I understand that Sage attempts to work in an amazing myriad of OS/hardware environments, but it certainly doesn't help on a personal level when Sage *fails*in *your* environment. What makes it worse is that Sage is a *commercial* venture, not some open-source hippie-dippie you-takes-your-chances type software; you are at the mercy of the support which "you paid for".

Now, I have spent a large amount of time reviewing (in quite some detail) this "forum" and its many areas (link seemingly buried in the second paragraph of Sage "support"), and I have learned a lot. Thank you to all the volunteer posters. There would seem to be a lot of happy users.

I have learned that that Sage is a terrific product. I have also learned that to [apparently] solve many of Sage's built-in problems, one needs to be willing/able to spend *huge* amounts of time/energy (here?) to keep one's head above beta-waters (not to mention now to keep current in license fees in the hopes that one's problems will get eventually resolved).

Don't get me wrong: I *love* my Sage. It's just that when it fails, it drives me nuts. For example: I have a very difficult time explaining to all those who care, why my Sage service (Win2k) just dies now with little or no clue as to why.

If I had bought and committed-into this bit of frustration because I needed something extra to fill my time, I would have no complaint. However, my expectations were somewhat higher. Perhaps you should double-check what yours are ...

My personal note to the developers/marketers: when the thing fails ... how about some some obvious and immediate help - not something [perhaps?] buried where only a systems programmer might look, how about some *person sensible* help and next steps - it just isn't there now!

My Sage is broke! Maybe(?) someone will come thru now to help, perhaps not. Doesn't make me feel real warm inside right now.

If I didn't know about these forums, all I could do is scream! Now, I do it here. Listen to my scream - this could be you.

YMMV,

- Don

ps: for for those of you who might write "contact support" - I already did, thanks.

[GKusnick]

I'm sorry your Sage isn't behaving itself. If you want help getting it working again, then maybe you could go into more detail about the specifics of your system configuration, what third-party plugins (if any) you're running, the exact symptoms of the problem you're having, what troubleshooting steps you've taken so far, etc. You say you've contacted support; what did you tell them, and what was their response? Have you enabled debug logging and examined the logs?

This is assuming you want to fix it. I'm not completely clear from the tone of your post whether you're asking for help, or giving up and throwing in the towel.

[hoadie]

Originally Posted by deliberate

My Sage is broke! Maybe(?) someone will come thru now to help, perhaps not. Doesn't make me feel real warm inside right now.

What's your problem?

Originally Posted by deliberate

ps: for for those of you who might write "contact support" - I already did, thanks.

FWIW, whenever I've had a problem I've contacted support and gotten it fixed, quite quickly I must add, given that I'm in Australia.

You've not said what response you've had from support so.....?

[mayamaniac]

deliberate
New Member
Join Date: 02-23-2007

He says he's been using SageTV since 2.x and this is his first post, which is a complaint about sagetv without giving any clues to what the problem is besides claiming it just failed. I find it hard to believe. But if he's been using SageTV this long, he should've known it is not something you just plug in and just works. Get a DVR or Tivo for that. I think we should ignore him for now until he provides more info, if he comes back at all. It could be a BTV coder trying to stir up some trouble.

[Fluffdaddy]

My thoughts exactly

[perfessor101]

On my Abit AN7 motherboard With OCZ (2x512 Dual Channel) Premium memory and a AMD 2600 XP+ with a mixture of Seagate and Maxtor drives, a BENQ DVD burner and two Hauppauge WinTV 500MCE cards and a USB-UIRT running Windows MCE 2005 OEM with all current windows updates and the latest version of SageTV.
If I leave the system running for more than 72 hours (without reboot) after reinstalling Windows MCE 2005 OEM and SageTV I loose the SageTV service on the next reboot (not every time, but that seems to be when it happens).
The Sagetv service starts, grabs about 20 MB of memory and 'freezes' there. I can't stop the service at that point with the taskmanager ... the only way to stop it is to set the service to disabled and then reboot.
Since May 2006 I have been running SageTV in Program mode (I hate reinstalling windows) and it has given me many hours of enjoyment. There may be a way of fixing it but admitedly I haven't done much successful searching in that vein.

I have been told that more than likely this is a hardware issue that leads to some minor OS corruption making the service unable to successfully start.

ps -- we've been through a few RC's and betas since then ... I might just try the service again this weekend ...

[salsbst]

Don, from your post count of 1, it's pretty clear that you haven't asked this forum for help.

Now that you've gotten your angst off your chest, it's time to ask for help, or at least back up your claim of failure with an explanation of what failed and what you've tried to do about it. Without doing so, your complaint is completely devoid of substance, and any discerning reader will ignore it.

[deliberate]

Originally Posted by perfessor101

The Sagetv service starts, grabs about 20 MB of memory and 'freezes' there. I can't stop the service at that point with the taskmanager ... the only way to stop it is to set the service to disabled and then reboot.

This sounds quite like my problem. For those others replying above, I emailed support on Wednesday and have so far received no reply.
[edit: sorry, it appears I sent the email on Thursday, my apologies]

My next inclination was, rather than messing around with the various bits one at a time, I'd just do a total reinstall but I didn't want to have to pay to upgrade Sage, a client license, a placeshifter license and perhaps screw up my brand new SageMVP (still branded Hauppauge) by going up to v6.x - however now that I've read thru many of the other threads here, I realize that I only have to pay to upgrade the Sage itself and the upgrade price seems fair enough. Wish I had known about the discounted offer earlier.

My post was mostly about frustration brought about by the fact the Sage does *not* fail gracefully and seems to be one of the few software products I have ever encountered where going into flail mode actually seems to improve changes of success. I've spent an awful lot of time watching Billy's Win2k do its little shutdown/startup dance I start to wonder if I should make the jump to the new Linux-based Sage but it doesn't look like it's ready for prime-time yet.

I started professionally in the computer industry way back in 1969 and I've seen/supported a lot of different software (even written some) in all those yearsand all those enviroments. I love Sage but sometimes I swear sometimes I could just take a hammer to it. The box itself should be solid but a total reformat/reinstall should be instructive and a good time to run some serious testing as well.

Overall I love sage, thanks anyways for the suggestion to love it or leave it (above). I just bemoan the fact that Sage requires so much damn time/effort on a higly technical level and gives little troubleshooting help when needed.

Maybe it will all get better with the great leap forward to "6" (I am not a number ...). Now if I could just find one authoritative write-up on how not to lose my all my past history and currently saved hours and hours of various shows while making the great leap forward, perhaps even one that would step me thru combining the several drive volumes I mistakenly started with back into just two or three more manageable.

IMO, Sage is not for the timid, nor for the technically challenged, nor for those who didn't realize that it was a hobby/sport/religion instead of something more approximating an appliance. Being an appliance driver sometimes has its rewards and it doesn't compete so much for otherwise needed time and attention. BTW: IMO, TIVO sucks.

Cheers,

- Don

[deliberate]

Originally Posted by salsbst

Don, from your post count of 1, it's pretty clear that you haven't asked this forum for help.

Quite correct.

Originally Posted by salsbst

Now that you've gotten your angst off your chest, it's time to ask for help, or at least back up your claim of failure with an explanation of what failed and what you've tried to do about it. Without doing so, your complaint is completely devoid of substance, and any discerning reader will ignore it.

Once I figure out how to make my "great leap forward" (which I was writing about above and missed your post), I'll let you know how it goes. I'm not looking for a hobby or to join another club, I'd just like to get this Sage running properly again for reasonably long periods of technical inattention, as I really love it when it does work.

The help I need now is two fold: 1) how to combine multiple volumes of "current recordings" into just afew, and 2) how to do a full-on reformat up and end up with my current recording history etc, if possible. For instance: I'd hate to re-record those 125 Alton Brown shows I've already archived to another huge off-line drive but I don't want to miss any I didn't already get.

Actually three-fold: a few scattered buddist prayers for my effort might help as well.

Cheers,

- Don

(ps: being a first-time poster with an opinion doesn't necessarily make one wrong)

[salsbst]

Reading between the lines, since you seem to be unwilling to state the specific problem(s) directly, it sounds like your machine is spontaneously rebooting while running SageTV. Is that so?

If so, you should get a Microsoft blue screen of death when that happens. It will list the system-level file that caused the operating system to fail. Make a note of it, along with the memory address reported next to it. (And tell us what it is!)

One thing to keep in mind: As far as I know (please someone correct me if I'm wrong), SageTV doesn't install any system-level drivers. As an application, it wouldn't have the level of operating system rights that would allow it to crash the machine.

Thus, if Windows itself is rebooting, then there is at least one problem on your machine that cannot be attributed to SageTV. There may be a SageTV problem or problems as well, but the software shouldn't (as far as I know) have privileges in the OS that allow it to crash the machine.

You may have a driver that is failing. Aside from hardware itself, drivers are typically the cause of spontaneous blue screens of death. It may be that Sage is "saying something" to a driver that the driver is barfing at, for example.

Throw us a bone! There are people here who like to help.

[salsbst]

We seem to be repeatedly cross-posting. I'm going to reread and post one more time....

[salsbst]

You stated that this seemed to be like your problem:

The Sagetv service starts, grabs about 20 MB of memory and 'freezes' there. I can't stop the service at that point with the taskmanager ... the only way to stop it is to set the service to disabled and then reboot.

I'll ignore your later request for help with features for now, since it seems more important to solve the freezing for the time being.

1) Can you post a debug log file of an instance where SageTV freezes while the service is starting? That might give us a clue or clues.

2) If you start SageTV in non-service mode, does it work?

You can enable logging by:

1) stop SageTV, its service, client, etc. on the machine in question
2) open your sage.properties file
3) if there is a debug_logging line, set it to TRUE (all caps is necessary), e.g. debug_logging=TRUE
4) if there isn't such a line, add it to the end of the file
5) save the file
6) run your test again

[nielm]

20Mb also does not seem enough for Java to do it's thing, maybe it's a Java problem... I would also suggest uninstalling all java versions from your system with Add/Remove programs; then checking that Program Files/Java/ is empty, then re-installing the latest Java version that you were happy with (Sage recommends 1.4.2, I use 1.6)

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by deliberate

Now if I could just find one authoritative write-up on how not to lose my all my past history and currently saved hours and hours of various shows...

Have you read through the FAQ pinned at the top of this forum? You won't find a more authoritative source than that.

You'll also find a fair amount of troubleshooting advice in there.

[deliberate]

Originally Posted by nielm

I would also suggest uninstalling all java versions from your system with Add/Remove programs; then checking that Program Files/Java/ is empty, then re-installing the latest Java version that you were happy with

Thanks for the link. I had Java suspicions myself. Yesterday, I had actually tried replacing my original 1.4.2_06 with another version I had lying around (1.5.0_11) but that seemed to cause even more problems. I didn't double-check on left-overs then however ...

So I took your advice, downloaded 1.4.2_12 (slightly newer than mine) from your link, and did the uninstall/check/re-install.

I also set the debug_logging=TRUE as suggested here. When doing a copy backup before editing, I noticed several hs_err_pidxxx.log files, a couple of which were 0 length, and another couple had esoteric things like:
"Unexpected Signal : EXCEPTION_PRIV_INSTRUCTION (0xc0000096) occurred at PC=0x18B24B1
Function=[Unknown.]
Library=(N/A)
NOTE: We are unable to locate the function name symbol for the error
just occurred. Please refer to release documentation for possible
reason and solutions."

After restarting the machine at every step, and in between running naked in circles chanting in strange toungues, all seemed OK with the windows gods.

I then set my SageService to manual (no auto-restart) and turned off the auto-start on windows startup for my client and then manually started and its running for the moment as a temp fix. My main thrust will be to upgrade to v6 sometime soon when/if I feel real lucky and energetic. (I've got ten different "drives" and approx 500gigs of video to worry about ...)

In the meantime my new MVP seems to be working OK as long as I hardwire connect it to the same switch as the server. Apparently it needs MAC-to-MAC addressing? Would seem to rule out using powerline bridge even though the server runs fine over one right now. My goal was to move the server to rack-mount in my office and use a MVP for my living room and another for my family room and another for our master BR. Hardwiring all is not an option [sigh] and neither is "wireless" other than powerline (which seems to work great for me).

Thanks for your post.

- Don

ps: in answer to another poster, at no time did I get BSOD problems or machine level aborts - although I did have a UPS bite the dust underneath the server and totally confuse me one time. My problems were with the Sage client (on the server) aborting to desktop for seemingly strange reasons, the service not starting fully/properly and ocassionally totally impossilbe to stop, and what seemed like random series of events on system reboots. It was very disappointing to come back from out of town and find that I had missed several "important" shows because my Sage went on holiday ... it was also very frustrating dealing with what I've called "lack of grace". My thrust is to quit the old version and move up to current, no sense troubleshooting old code.

[deliberate]

Originally Posted by nielm

I would also suggest uninstalling all java versions from your system with Add/Remove programs; then checking that Program Files/Java/ is empty, then re-installing the latest Java version that you were happy with

After doing so, I now get a "15 day trial" notice in red on my MVP and when I check the License Registration on my server, it says "Your Media and Placeshifter trial has not been activated, You currently have 2 valid Media Extender and Placeshifter license(s). Please enter your new SageTV Media Extender or Placeshifter license key below." Of course, if I try to re-enter my MVP key it tells me that it's a duplicate. I have nothing else except the same MVP connected to the Sage Server.

Isn't this fun? No!

- Don

[nielm]

just as an explanation: hs_err_pidxxx.log files are Java's crash dump files. Sage's logs are sagetv_0.txt and sagetvclient_0.txt.

As for MVP licencing problems... MVP licences are supposed to be 'floating', but if you had connection problems, it may still be reserving licence(s) for the MVP(s) that failed to connect. I could not figure out from your post how many MVP's you have...

I would recommend powering off all MVP's/placeshifters, stopping and restarting the server/service (to reset the licence mechanism), then powering on the MVP's one at a time...

[deliberate]

Originally Posted by nielm

just as an explanation: hs_err_pidxxx.log files are Java's crash dump files. Sage's logs are sagetv_0.txt and sagetvclient_0.txt.

Thanks. Only found the savetv_x.txt but not any for the client, all since turning on debug switch recommended above.

Found some very interesting stuff quickly browsing thru those four "sage" files (see below).

Originally Posted by nielm

As for MVP licencing problems... MVP licences are supposed to be 'floating', but if you had connection problems, it may still be reserving licence(s) for the MVP(s) that failed to connect.

Just for info: leaving the Media Extender unplugged overnight didn't reset anything.

Originally Posted by nielm

I could not figure out from your post how many MVP's you have...

Sorry, I only have one (1) - a brand new "Media Extender" fresh direct from Sage containing a retail boxed MVP and a couple xeroxed sheets on setting up that left a lot to the imagination etc. Never found any "setup" other than "Preferred Se4rver" page where all I could do was scan ... Unit had very hard time getting DHCP assigned IP. Then, had a very hard time getting past the flashing "logon" screens. Restarting eveything, including the microwave and the cellphone, several times (and requisite naked circular chanting) finally got me thru flail-land and IP# then found. Very disappointing to see here on more reading that the MVP will apparently not work over powerline adapters when using Sage. Kind of kills my ideas for other MVPs usage for now.

Originally Posted by nielm

I would recommend powering off all MVP's/placeshifters, stopping and restarting the server/service (to reset the licence mechanism), then powering on the MVP's one at a time...

Yup, that worked. Will be interesting to go back and read the new logs. Here's some of the bits that popped out at me when doing a quick browse thru text of the [very verbose] first four logs:

Sat 2/24 21:06:28.739 ERROR DBObject failed validation class sage.av id=3917639 str=Watched[id=3917639 Airing=3871538, WatchStart=Fri 2/23 23:57:44.589, WatchEnd=Fri 2/23 23:59:59.757, RealStart=Fri 2/23 23:57:47.288, RealEnd=Sat 2/24 0:00:02.645]

Sat 2/24 21:07:46.264 WIN32 FAILURE HR=0x88760091 FILE=.\CPlayerData.cpp LINE=742

Sat 2/24 21:08:57.729 WARNING - MissingResource: "Realtek AC97 Audio"

Sat 2/24 21:11:16.812 Sage.exit() called.
Sat 2/24 21:11:16.813 Cleaning up servers
Sat 2/24 21:11:16.815 Error w/SageTV client connection:java.net.SocketException: socket closed
java.net.SocketException: Socket closed
java.net.SocketException: Socket closed
java.net.SocketException: Socket closed

almost 300 of:
Sat 2/24 22:56:27.700 MiniUI client error:java.net.SocketException: Software caused connection abort: socket write error
then a few other lines followed by at least 200 more of same

Sat 2/24 23:32:46.233 Exception in the MiniUIClientReceiver of: java.io.EOFException

couple large groups of:
Sat 2/24 23:34:00.862 TFTP timeout

Can I confirm that an unattended inactive Sage is never expected to precipitate a spontaneous reboot? That that would only be a hardware failure?

TIA for all your on-going help,

- Don

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by deliberate

Only found the savetv_x.txt but not any for the client...

When running in service mode, the client UI has its own properties file called SageClient.properties. If you want to see client debug logs, you must enable debug logging separately in that file. (But given that your problems seem to be service related, this may not actually shed much light.)

For what it's worth, error 0x88760091 is DDERR_INVALIDPIXELFORMAT, which would seem to indicate some sort of decoder/renderer issue.

In case you haven't figured this out yet, sagetv_0.txt is the log from your most recent session (i.e. since you last restarted the service), sagetv_1.txt is from the session before that, etc. Every time you start the service it renames the old logs one number higher and starts a new sagetv_0.txt. So if you have a repeatable bug, the thing to do is restart the service, repro your bug, restart again, and then grab sagetv_1.txt for the log of the bug session.

[deliberate]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

When running in service mode, the client UI has its own properties file called SageClient.properties. If you want to see client debug logs, you must enable debug logging separately in that file.

Makes sense, thanks. Guess that would be where I set the times on the fast-forward etc? I note that the MVP only shows the server/client settings for those and the MVP doesn't follow my changes in those areas.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

For what it's worth, error 0x88760091 is DDERR_INVALIDPIXELFORMAT, which would seem to indicate some sort of decoder/renderer issue.

Thanks, interesting. I've got two Hauppage PCI PVR capture cards, one an old 250 and a newer 150. If I decide to get back into the box [groan], I'll do a card re-install on each just in case.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

In case you haven't figured this out yet, sagetv_0.txt is the log from your most recent session.

Yup, got that part OK. Does make keeping an archive a bit more challenging as the filenames shift each time. Oh well. Certainly does seem to capture quite a verbose line-by-line of what it's doing and thinking.

I've slowed down on my ideas of my great leap forward now that I read that the MVP "bleep" problems get worse for some with v6 and there seem to be other problems described with going up to v6 as well. Discussions of "gee, it didn;'t do it with .18 have you tried .19?" etc are not reassuring.

Thanks for your post,

- Don