Goodbye Sage

[AngelofDeth]

True, but java 1.4.2_11 is DST compliant if you are in the US, so all you had to do was make sure your Windows was patched if you were running a "current" version of Sage. (5.x or later, not sure what java comes with older ones)

[Fuzzy]

Though I hate to take this more off-topic than it already is, Has anyone thought to complain to their congressman about the DST change? Why on earth we even HAVE daylight savings time is beyond me. Instead of congress just getting rid of it (like they SHOULd have), they actually found a way to make it a bigger, more complicated issue. Enough to make you want to move to Arizona....

[mayamaniac]

To be honest, I don't know why there are no emails from SageTV. I think I only receive emails when they had a special discount for the holidays. It was useful to get that notice because I wouldn't have known if there was no email. I visit this forum several times a week, and I never saw or noticed the DST thread that was "stickied". Although I didn't need to do anything to fix the DST problem since I kept windows and java updated, but I can see how it can be a headache for other users who didn't update their softwares. Although quit using SageTV over something fixable is just being too sensitive. But back to the emailing thing, its not like its a lot of work to send out emails to everyone. After the all, the computer is doing the work.

[roxy99]

Originally Posted by AngelofDeth

True, but java 1.4.2_11 is DST compliant if you are in the US, so all you had to do was make sure your Windows was patched if you were running a "current" version of Sage. (5.x or later, not sure what java comes with older ones)

I'm not trying to make you look bad but that is exactly the kind of misinformation that is misleading and is the reason why a forum is no replacement for official support. As you eluded to 1.4.2_11 Java is not DST compliant for some countries- eg Canada. Sage has an excellent forum for sure but official support is another thing.

So poor Joe smo is looking through the pages of the forum and reads it quickly and figures he's ok with 1.4.2_11 only to discover later that actually Canada is an exception and he needs to update his Java.

A simple patch could have been issued by Sage that would update the time database in Java regardless of the Java version. There is a command line tz Jar updater on the Java website that does this. A simple utility could have been made by Sage to do that.

I was forced to update my Java and I did'nt want to except for this stupid new DST.

BTW, I haven't lost faith and very much enjoy the stability of SageTV and the forum and its members are top notch for sure.

[avonnied]

[ranton]
i have to agree, the worst part about it, is its the usual pass the buck type of excuse..

"its not sage, its Java"...


there is nothing more irritating in customer service, as a customer, than the pass the buck mentality..

the same thing everyone is coming down on MS/Java can be same the said for SageTV..

they've had since 2005 to make sure Sage would work properly with the new DST,

Why was the 6.x sage not bundled with a proper Java? If java wasn't fixed then why did SageTV not take extra measures to ensure a their software was ready. After all we did pay for the 6.x upgrade.. wasn't this for "better support"?

[/rantoff]

[AngelofDeth]

I think the bundled Java was initially said to be compliant by Sun, but it was later changed that it was only compliant in the US. (I could be wrong, or maybe Sun just took a long time before releasing this info) So if your in the US, you only had to update Windows. Another thing about email, is not everyone reads them. I know I would be more likely to see a notice that was posted on the forums than if they had emailed me. You could argue that they should do both, but since they have never sent out email notices(since ive been using sage anyway), if you don't like it, you could either move on or just live with it.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by AngelofDeth

I think the bundled Java was initially said to be compliant by Sun, but it was later changed that it was only compliant in the US. (I could be wrong, or maybe Sun just took a long time before releasing this info) So if your in the US, you only had to update Windows. Another thing about email, is not everyone reads them. I know I would be more likely to see a notice that was posted on the forums than if they had emailed me. You could argue that they should do both, but since they have never sent out email notices(since ive been using sage anyway), if you don't like it, you could either move on or just live with it.

I agree that as customers, we should move on; however, I hope that Sage is taking notice of this and learn from it. I'm not sure an email would have worked, but I don't think the user-supported forum is the best place for it either. I realize there is an announcement for this issue on the support page, but it just links you to a forum post, which links you to a forum topic.

If you're trying to market SageTV to anyone other than computer-literate users, you need to be very explicit about how to fix stuff like this. I'm sure my Mom (or my babysitter, to steal from another thread topic) wouldn't have been able to update her system.

I'm not pointing fingers; I work for a network services provider, and we spend a lot of time relying on other people's technology. When stuff goes wrong, however, we have to grin and bear it, because we can't control our vendors, but we can manage the relationship with the customer.

[JohnPRFL]

Originally Posted by bcjenkins

If you don't go above and beyond expectations, you can't win. While it wasn't SageTV's problem to fix, it sure affected their product negatively. I think what they did was likely thought of as enough. Perhaps looking back, something else should have been done because all of their users do not frequent the forums for support.

I would like to see some sort of system messaging feature added, which could be opted out of, for them to post messages right to the TV.

EXACTLY, it's not about whose fault it is. I work in IT and particiapted in the "patching" of over 650 clients and servers last weekend. The fact is there should of been a special, temporary, change made to the "Support Site" with a brief explanation and then at the very least a link to a locked sticky on the forum with links to all of the update options. As there were a couple for each OS as well as Java.

If SageTV wants to be "user friendly" so that anyone off the street can Install and Go, then they need to start thier level of support with them. The experienced users know to pass the "Support" page stuff and go straight to the Forum. The off the street user goes to the Support page, expecting to find all the answers quickly.

Oh Well, Live and Learn.

[autoboy]

Sorry, i didn't read this entire thread but I wanted to post my opinion here. I am now an expert in finding fixes for sage. This is required if you want any sort of quality and usability from the sage software. I understand that the coding is difficult and there is only limited time, but customer support should not be from the forums. I have been a sage customer since V2.2. I got so frustrated initially with all the instablility problems, the runarounds in the forums, the wrong answers to my problems that i switched to MCE. Well, my girlfriend loved it because it always worked. I hated it because it could not do clients and network storage. I switched back to sage and was happy that the reliablity had improved. However, i still get problems here and there and I have to search the forums for hours to find the right answers. Please fix the bugs before you start to add a whole bunch of new features. I know they are cool, and I know they are fun to add, but us users are not having fun with the problems. Sage is great software but it really takes a certain person to be able to use it.

While I am at it i'll tell you what feature I want, I want the best possible picture out of my system, and I want the system to be able to handle most codecs. A codec management tool would do wonders for helping us get stutter free and AC3 sound from any codec we install. Playback should be flawless. That is what you are selling afterall. I know I can use thrid party tools, but that is cumbersome and takes time to research. Maybe a codec pack should come with Sage. I don't know, you are the experts. Please fix playback. Oh, and that extender is awesome, hurry up, I want two. Just make sure playback is flawless and the output is not fixed but variable so I can use a better video processor. And why can't my system play a damn CD? I look like an idiot when I'm trying to show my friend my system and it won't even play his CD!?

[astribli]

Amen

[jominor]

Originally Posted by chrispy

I consider myself an pretty advanced computer user who just spent 55 minutes trying to update Sage to display the time correctly.

I am amazed that the best Sage can do is mark a post "sticky" at the top of this forum for something as major as this. One would think that after seeing this error, all I would do is simply go to the support page of sage.tv to find notice of the update or fix. Nothing. You are forced to read through 4 pages of "this will work" and "this will not work", trying to guess what path I need to take to resolve the issue.

I have been running Sage for about three years, with no new features really being added or bugs being fixed and find the latest pay for update laughable, but I have remained true until today. In total I spent about 55 minutes trying to resolve this time issue, when it could of been a single email from Sage and a few clicks. I paid Sage not Sun.

Goodbye Sage! Hello Vista!

Don't let the door hit ya. What if you boss tells you that you were paid last year, so why do you keep asking for a paycheck?

Or tell that car dealer that you had an '05 so why do you have to pay for an '06. Software developement is the ONLY business where people think(foolishly and unrealistically) that they are entitled to unlimited support and upgrades.

Guess how much the people who wanted a color iPod paid if they had the original. The same price as the people who NEVER OWN ONE!!

I'll love to see your reaction of your boss said you already had one raise. That's it for life.

[PhillJones]

Originally Posted by jominor

Or tell that car dealer that you had an '05 so why do you have to pay for an '06. Software developement is the ONLY business where people think(foolishly and unrealistically) that they are entitled to unlimited support and upgrades.

I'm not talking specifically about Sage here, just the general argument, so let's not personalize this.

Generally speaking, software is the only field where a company will sell a consumer a broken or faulty product and then charge that consumer to fix it. If you bought a car that suddenly konked out every time you did something innocuous like make a left turn and you had to open all the windows, close them all again and wiggle the steering wheel a bit before you could restart it, you'd expect them to fix it for free.

As I said, that isn't about sage per se but the whole computer software support industry attitude.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by PhillJones

I'm not talking specifically about Sage here, just the general argument, so let's not personalize this.

Generally speaking, software is the only field where a company will sell a consumer a broken or faulty product and then charge that consumer to fix it. If you bought a car that suddenly konked out every time you did something innocuous like make a left turn and you had to open all the windows, close them all again and wiggle the steering wheel a bit before you could restart it, you'd expect them to fix it for free.

As I said, that isn't about sage per se but the whole computer software support industry attitude.

That's sometimes true, sometimes not. In the case of Sage I did upgrade, hoping my stuttering problem would disappear. It didn't. And I don't use any of the new features. Still there's hope for the future!

One upgrade that really is an improvement is Office 2007. I've never liked Word in the past, but I love the new Word.

[Trepidati0n]

I believe adding an announcment feature on critical updates or even update announcements to Sage would be an excellent feature that would keep the users off the forums but still "in the know" to changes in their software.

As for a lot of the goodbye threads...I think some people are missing the point. When quite a few people make a goodbye thread, it is basically hoping that the person they are saying goodbye to will make a gesture to remedy the issue. In short, a last chance to "make it right".

Anybody here who thinks Sage is flawless....needs to take off the rose colored glasses. I still use Sage because I feel that the "+" column is still bigger than the "-" column.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by Trepidati0n

I believe adding an announcment feature on critical updates or even update announcements to Sage would be an excellent feature that would keep the users off the forums but still "in the know" to changes in their software.

I think this is a good idea. Like so many softwares, there's a always an "Automatically Check for Updates" check box in one of its options or settings windows. I don't know if SageTV is designed to be updated or patched by this method, but I assume it can like most softwares. So a "Check For Updates" option when you go to the Settings > Help > System Information menu would be great. And maybe have a icon appear on the upper right corner whenever there's a new update.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by PhillJones

Generally speaking, software is the only field where a company will sell a consumer a broken or faulty product and then charge that consumer to fix it. If you bought a car that suddenly konked out every time you did something innocuous like make a left turn and you had to open all the windows, close them all again and wiggle the steering wheel a bit before you could restart it, you'd expect them to fix it for free.

As I said, that isn't about sage per se but the whole computer software support industry attitude.

I think its hard to make a good analogy when it comes to computer softwares. And its not the same as buying a broken car because SageTV relies on the computer hardware to function properly. So your experience vary so much depending on your hardware. If anything, its more like buying a car stereo system and expect it to work with every type of cars in the world. And even that is not an accurate analogy.

This is the same issue that plagued Windows and its softwares since the beginning, which is trying to make the software run on almost an unlimited combination of hardware. And the more the software has to depend on the hardware, in the case of SageTV, the harder it is to make it compatible. In general, I'm surprised Windows XP works as well as it does on most generic computer hardware.

Still, a good company who wants to stay in good terms with its customers should try to do everything they can to help users make the products work for them. And this includes emailing or have the software check for update notices to known problems.

[Trepidati0n]

may, you quoted the wrong person on your previous post

[mayamaniac]

not sure how that happened, but fixed. Thanks.

[PhillJones]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

I think its hard to make a good analogy when it comes to computer softwares. And its not the same as buying a broken car because SageTV relies on the computer hardware to function properly. So your experience vary so much depending on your hardware. If anything, its more like buying a car stereo system and expect it to work with every type of cars in the world. And even that is not an accurate analogy.

Like I say, I wasn't really talking about sage, more the general point. I don't actually think sage are particularly bad offenders in this regard. I have a couple of issues with HD but when I bought sage, it clearly said on the sage website that it didn't do HD cable. There are a couple of bugs in v5 that never got fixed like the FSE problem which they ought to fix for free IMHO, but it's not like it plain old doesn't work like some products I could mention if I wanted to derail the thread.

*cough*Endnote*cough*

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by PhillJones

Like I say, I wasn't really talking about sage, more the general point. I don't actually think sage are particularly bad offenders in this regard. I have a couple of issues with HD but when I bought sage, it clearly said on the sage website that it didn't do HD cable. There are a couple of bugs in v5 that never got fixed like the FSE problem which they ought to fix for free IMHO, but it's not like it plain old doesn't work like some products I could mention if I wanted to derail the thread.

*cough*Endnote*cough*

Most computer softwares in general, including Microsoft Windows, for the PC have the same problem when they are trying to work with all the combinations of hardware available. It's almost an impossible task.

SageTV is an example of software that rely heavily on hardware to function, so your mileage may vary. For example, FSE works on some machine I have, and doesn't work well on another machine with different hardware. Maybe SageTV should tell us what hardware to buy to guarantee that it will work perfectly, like what MS did with the MCE certified boxes. But then thats a tough one to do as there are too many factors involved.