What's so bad about SageTV's UI?

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by jominor

Especially if you have more than one tuner. Which one should you start watching?

It should view them all, PIP style! That would be a feature!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Opus4

Someone mentioned the pop-up options dialogs having icons next to some commands... those icons usually indicate that there is a direct command to access that option w/o having to first use Select to see the dialog. Examples: use Play to watch the highlighted show, or use Info to jump to the detailed info for a show or view the sublist, etc. You can also use those direct commands while the dialog is open.

- Andy

I'm going to assume the manual says that, but I must say, I think the Sage devs (and those who read the manual) are the only ones who knew that, I had no idea thats what they meant, but then again, I generally focus on words (I don't like icons without words, except for "standard" icons, like play, pause, etc).

Originally Posted by Halstead

Sorry to be so quiet- I'm currently talking to the client that I did the usability study with about releasing some of the results here. If they say no, I'm afraid I won't be able to answer Stanger's (very reasonable) questions to me.

Completely understandable.

I will mention (after getting the OK from my client) one thing that came up over and over again with Sage- the ''back/last' functionality. CE interfaces with 'exit' or 'back' functionality generally have that function take the user 'up' a level in the UI. Alternatively but much less common is to have the function take the user to the most recent UI screen/activity. In our testing with novice PVR users (we tested no current MCE or BTV users) there was a tremendous frustration with the behavior of the back button as well as the left/right arrows of the remote (an MCE remote was used for all PVR software tests, and a series 2 TiVo remote was used for the TiVo tests)

This is exactly the kind of comment that is greatly needed but generally lacking from these threads. Concrete things that are truly usability issues.

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Still working on my list (not really; actually lurking at lunch), but some of the topics here intrigued me enough to post (again). As I think through some of my major concerns about the default UI, some basic precepts come to mind:

Ah! More good comments.

1. I bought Sage because it had a media center app built into it; it managed not only television but also music & photos. However, the interface is still very tv-centric. The media center app, while a great selling point, is still buried a couple clicks down.

OK, but should all the items in Media Center be items in the Main Menu? Is a single, larger scrolling menu better than a smaller non-scrolling menu with submenues?

2. The new features don't look or feel like the old features. IF you go into the media center, you introduce several new navigational elements that you don't have when watching TV. Go into the Google Video or YouTube, and the navigational structure changes again.

Guess I haven't really payed attention, but I do know that, especially the Video Library has a different navigation "theory" than the recordings menus. I don't really know which one is better, I'm not sure either are ideal.

3. Most actions seem to be organized around the source of media you are interacting with, rather than what you want to do. For example, Archived Videos and Imported Videos are in the Media Center, Online videos are under the Online Services menu, and Live TV and Recorded Shows are at the home page; I just want to WATCH something. It would seem to me that there must be a better way to organize the information rather than on the origin of that information.

This one I'm curious about and really want to question it. How better can they be organized, especially because each is really a different thing? I treat each of the items you list differently, so the segregation seems natural to me.

My knee-jerk reaction is to infer that you'd like them all in one list, and all I can think of is my 500GB of recordings, 2TB of DVDs, and numerous other video in one list would be a disaster. And I don't really like filtering, I like being able to filter, to par down what I'm looking at, but I don't like the idea of filtering as basic functionality (ie one list where you have to select a "Recordings" filter to view recordings.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by stanger89

OK, but should all the items in Media Center be items in the Main Menu? Is a single, larger scrolling menu better than a smaller non-scrolling menu with submenues?

Guess I haven't really payed attention, but I do know that, especially the Video Library has a different navigation "theory" than the recordings menus. I don't really know which one is better, I'm not sure either are ideal.

This one I'm curious about and really want to question it. How better can they be organized, especially because each is really a different thing? I treat each of the items you list differently, so the segregation seems natural to me.

My knee-jerk reaction is to infer that you'd like them all in one list, and all I can think of is my 500GB of recordings, 2TB of DVDs, and numerous other video in one list would be a disaster. And I don't really like filtering, I like being able to filter, to par down what I'm looking at, but I don't like the idea of filtering as basic functionality (ie one list where you have to select a "Recordings" filter to view recordings.

I'm a much more visual person than I am good with words, but unfortunatey I don't have access to a scanner right now. I could photoshop it, but I'm faster with a pen.

What I'm envisioning (and there may be other ideas to work through) is a very simple main screen, with basically two buttons "Watch" and "Listen". Each of these buttons would be smart, so if you click on them it does one thing, but if you right arrow them (or right-click), other options would appear (more on that later).

I would organize all of the videos under a single subcategory with multiple views, kind of like the video center is now. Each of the views would represent the source of the videos you want to watch (e.g, Live TV, Recorded TV, Imported, Archived, DVD, Google, YouTube). A search option would also be available, but it would search across all videos (or you could restrict it to certain types).

Back to the Watch smart button on the main screen; right clicking it would bring up all of the views in the video section. When you selected a particular view, it would take you to that corresponding view in the Video Section. A Left click would take you to the last used view (thereby providing a single click option to get to LiveTV or Recorded Shows or whatever). I would probably also have the title of the last used view appear on the button as well (so you know where you're going).

The Listen button would perform in much the same way, but your music would be sliced into genres, artists, playlists, etc. I would also include an all music playlist, so you could conceivably be listening to a random playlist of music in two clicks after starting up Sage.

This is just the beginning of an idea, and of course, it's all theoretical at this point, but I think it would be something different than what is currently available, and could be a very powerful, yet simple interface.

I'll try to sketch it out, once I get my scanner up and running

Stu

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Halstead

Wow, great post. #s 1-3 are just soooo on the money (particularly #3). I can't tell you how many times my fiancee has asked me 'where is xxxxxx video? I can't find it!' and it's because she was looking in Recoded TV for something in Imported Videos or vice versa. I think recorded vs. imported should be filters, not different parts of the UI.

Here is the problem. That's your fiance'. My wife had not problem with Sage's layout. I don't think it can be more obvious than "Recorded", especially considering it is at the top of the list. You are more likely to lose people at "filter", IMO.

For every story about someone being unable to use use Sage, there is one about someone understand the layout out of the box.

There are people who can't understand even the layout of the iPod.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by jominor

Here is the problem. That's your fiance'. My wife had not problem with Sage's layout. I don't think it can be more obvious than "Recorded", especially considering it is at the top of the list. You are more likely to lose people at "filter", IMO.

For every story about someone being unable to use use Sage, there is one about someone understand the layout out of the box.

There are people who can't understand even the layout of the iPod.

Take a closer look at his post;if his fiancee knew it was a recorded video, then of course she would look under recorded videos. What he's saying is that she's looking for a video, and she can't remember if they recorded it using SageTV, or if they imported it from another source (or after a rebuild of Sage where the wiz.bin was lost). She then has to check Recorded Videos, and then move on to Imported Videos. Or, if he archived it, she has to leave the Recording menu, and then move to the Media Center (where it's not patently obvious that Archived Videos go) to play the video.

It's not an issue of taste at that point; it's an issue of simplifying the design.

[Goodspike]

Was the right click issue part of this thread? I can't seem to find it.

Anyway, last night I realized the main place you right click--while watching a video. That brings up the choices to go to other areas. If you left click you can FF/REW. Other than that, you almost never want to right click.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

Anyway, last night I realized the main place you right click--while watching a video. That brings up the choices to go to other areas. If you left click you can FF/REW. Other than that, you almost never want to right click.

The Malore menus have a lot of right-click options.

[seanonymous]

Perhaps MythTV's solution should be looked into. While they have the same problem with imported video being stored in a different location than recorded video (and this is a huge problem - I don't care if a video was recorded, ripped from a DVD, downloaded as a podcast, or imported from a camcorder - video is video and there should be a 'watch stuff' area where all the video can be browsed together), MythTv's menu structure is defined by very easy-to-edit XML files. So if you don't like the way stuff is organized, you can rearrange it yourself. You can even rename buttons or delete items that you never use.

Sage could one-up this by using a nice little drag-and-drop tree view to create the XML (or whatever) file that defines the menu structure.

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by seanonymous

Perhaps MythTV's solution should be looked into. While they have the same problem with imported video being stored in a different location than recorded video (and this is a huge problem - I don't care if a video was recorded, ripped from a DVD, downloaded as a podcast, or imported from a camcorder - video is video and there should be a 'watch stuff' area where all the video can be browsed together), MythTv's menu structure is defined by very easy-to-edit XML files. So if you don't like the way stuff is organized, you can rearrange it yourself. You can even rename buttons or delete items that you never use.

Sage could one-up this by using a nice little drag-and-drop tree view to create the XML (or whatever) file that defines the menu structure.

Check out Nielm's Dynamic Menus. Allows you to modify the menu structure to your heart's content.

B

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by seanonymous

MythTv's menu structure is defined by very easy-to-edit XML files. So if you don't like the way stuff is organized, you can rearrange it yourself. You can even rename buttons or delete items that you never use.

Sage could one-up this by using a nice little drag-and-drop tree view to create the XML (or whatever) file that defines the menu structure.

Since you are new, check out Studio or perhaps nielm's Dynamic Customisable Menus.

You can modify the entire UI (Studio), or just the menus -- both while SageTV is running.

- Andy

[roxy99]

The UI seems fine to me and if anyone wants to overhaul it then its silly if just for eye-candy. I don't no how integral the Sage UI is with it core but changing the UI may cause other problems and new bugs to crop up.

There needs to be a very good reason to overhaul the UI unless the UI operates independently of the core sage program. But then again thats why there are customizations as Andy points out.

[Mark SS]

Anyone mention this one yet?

http://forum.team-mediaportal.com/3d...pf-t16100.html

Personally, I think the Meekell STV has the most potential. I frequently check the customisations forum in the hope that Crashless has found time to update it.

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by Mark SS

Anyone mention this one yet?

http://forum.team-mediaportal.com/3d...pf-t16100.html

Just walk away. Don't look back.

Trust me on this.

[Halstead]

Originally Posted by Mark SS

Anyone mention this one yet?

http://forum.team-mediaportal.com/3d...pf-t16100.html

Personally, I think the Meekell STV has the most potential. I frequently check the customizations forum in the hope that Crashless has found time to update it.

Agreed. Meekell isn't very pretty to my eyes. but I think it does very well on the usability scale.

BTW, I think I must be the only one who doesn't dig the Front row UI- it's very sexy, but I don't like the fact that the whole interface changes navigation metaphors after the top level, and I fear that it won't handle additional elements (IPTV, whatever) very elegantly.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by seanonymous

Perhaps MythTV's solution should be looked into. While they have the same problem with imported video being stored in a different location than recorded video (and this is a huge problem - I don't care if a video was recorded, ripped from a DVD, downloaded as a podcast, or imported from a camcorder - video is video and there should be a 'watch stuff' area where all the video can be browsed together),

I think we may have to let this be a "stylistic" issue. I would absolutely hate having all my media glommed together, I don't want my recordings "cluttered" with 300 DVDs when I want to watch a recording, nor do I want to have my DVD's cluttered with numerous recordings when I want to watch a movie. And I really don't want to have to change filters to see one vs the other (you can already search across all media).

MythTv's menu structure is defined by very easy-to-edit XML files. So if you don't like the way stuff is organized, you can rearrange it yourself. You can even rename buttons or delete items that you never use.

Sage could one-up this by using a nice little drag-and-drop tree view to create the XML (or whatever) file that defines the menu structure.

Studio is exactly that, and a whole lot more.

Originally Posted by roxy99

The UI seems fine to me and if anyone wants to overhaul it then its silly if just for eye-candy. I don't no how integral the Sage UI is with it core but changing the UI may cause other problems and new bugs to crop up.

There needs to be a very good reason to overhaul the UI unless the UI operates independently of the core sage program. But then again thats why there are customizations as Andy points out.

Well Sage uses image files for a lot of things (highlight bars), and it could stand to have a bit more refined images for those. Such a change is essentially without risk.

I think there have been some good suggestions in this thread about things that could be changed in the default STV that would improve navigation, but I do agree that a complete overhaul is unnecessary, and probably undesirable (break imports, etc).

Originally Posted by Mark SS

Anyone mention this one yet?

http://forum.team-mediaportal.com/3d...pf-t16100.html

Personally, I think the Meekell STV has the most potential. I frequently check the customisations forum in the hope that Crashless has found time to update it.

You mean like this:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/downloa...?do=file&id=25
or this:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/downloa...?do=file&id=65
Neither are finished STVs.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Take a closer look at his post;if his fiancee knew it was a recorded video, then of course she would look under recorded videos. What he's saying is that she's looking for a video, and she can't remember if they recorded it using SageTV, or if they imported it from another source (or after a rebuild of Sage where the wiz.bin was lost). She then has to check Recorded Videos, and then move on to Imported Videos. Or, if he archived it, she has to leave the Recording menu, and then move to the Media Center (where it's not patently obvious that Archived Videos go) to play the video.

It's not an issue of taste at that point; it's an issue of simplifying the design.

I think it is exactly taste. My wife has no problems with this stuff. This, to me, is no different than the guy who wanted weather and photos as top level items. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that default setup is fine. I also think that third-party options to modify Sage are fine.

So the question is, who is more representative of the user base? And my wife is no pc expert by any definition.

[Halstead]

Originally Posted by jominor

I think it is exactly taste. My wife has no problems with this stuff. This, to me, is no different than the guy who wanted weather and photos as top level items. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that default setup is fine. I also think that third-party options to modify Sage are fine.

Opinion = "I like this"
Usability = "X% number of current users/qualified potential users like this"

So the question is, who is more representative of the user base? And my wife is no pc expert by any definition.

That is, in fact, the heart of the matter. What are the defining characteristics of a current/potential Sage user? How well does the current interface meet their needs?

It seems to me that most of the SageTV users I interact with are somewhat like me- HTPC power users that value configurability, extensibility, and control over out-of-the-box usability. We are then able two mold the UI into something with a reasonably high WAF factor for our home (as needed). Is this the market SageTV is aiming for? It's always possible that the users I interact with are not indicative of the user base as a whole, of course, but it's an important thing to know.

[Mark SS]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Just walk away. Don't look back.

Trust me on this.

Not looking to switch to MP, all to well aware of its short comings. Link was to highlight what can be done with a UI, albeit that being a prototype.

That said, given time MP will come good and be a serious contender. It already supports all the things many of us wish sage would (DVB-S/S2, CI/CAM, h.264, MDAPI filter), its just not ready for my living room yet

[Mark SS]

Originally Posted by stanger89

You mean like this:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/downloa...?do=file&id=25
or this:
http://forums.sage.tv/forums/downloa...?do=file&id=65
Neither are finished STVs.

Exactly like that. If the capability is there, why don't we have a finished STV exploiting the potential.

[pawn]

Originally Posted by Mark SS

Exactly like that. If the capability is there, why don't we have a finished STV exploiting the potential.

Sounds great. When do you get started?