Sage6 GUI flaws in abundance

[Hector]

Of course by ‘many users’ still on v2 you really mean ‘vast minority’.

I’m no apologist for Sage but that has to be one of the most backward approaches to innovation I’ve ever read. Features are in part added due to customer demand, not in spite of it.

As for delete being at the top of the menu all it would take would be two errant sent selects in the BUFFER. Both of can be sent faster than you could react. Same reason Windows or any other program doesn’t have delete as first focus. And has been pointed out, its not the most used selection either. In short it makes no sense either from a usability or ‘protect the users data’ POV. Its just your personal preference which is far far different than ‘should be’.

But you do clearly define the problem, 1) you resist change (a flaw you erroneously attribute to everyone) and 2) as you say you’re ‘habit trained' to the point you can’t effectively learn new things. People are what people are but clearly a fast moving innovative platform is a little out of your comfort level. To that end why wait for 6.2? There will just be more innovation/new features in the next version and then you’ll get confused all over again. Personally I think Tivo and Cable co DVR’s should suit you perfectly. You won’t see many new features or innovation and keeping with your Flat Earth philosophy, very little will change.

Originally Posted by stevech

thanks for the point by point response

I'll wait for 6.2 final to come out. I took a big enough risk to the WAF by going from v4 to 6.x, and it suffered. I see why it's not uncommon to read that there are many users till on v2!

We all know that many people resist significant change to something they're satisfied with or accustomed to. It's human nature. So forcing major, not minor changes, is bound to raise ire. Such as no way to turn off the episode names and video preview window in 6.1. And the added options menus. And requiring use of the PLAY button instead of the habit-trained OK button to quickly start a playback.

As to the DELETE not being in the top of the menu - if you do click it, Yet Another Menu comes up for "are you sure?".

Be ever sensitive to how easily you can alienate users (User says: "Oh screw it: get TiVo, get TWC's DVR; I'm hooked on the concept, not the product") - honk up the UI and the superb underlying core product is overwhelmed by the user perception. We all know that.

Ease of use for the most common operations. That's what counts. More features are nice, if they're non-obtrusive to the main-line usage. Fewest button pushes. Always.

[tipstir]

Looks like you have some video graphic artifacts Have you tried shutting down the SAGETV.. Wait 3 mins then start it up again? This is one way too do it but too me it's kind of repeative. I know I've said this prior but creating a self running macro using task scheduler in XP or Vista will do the trick. Use the WebServer to add or change the scheduling for SAGETV server. I don't know about going back to V2, V3, V4.. But I can record and they come out perfect which is a big plus in my book. I don't use SAGETV MediaMVP GUI and decided to go with Hauppauge MediaMVP GUI. But that GUI is dull, so I've replace with a couple I've created for GUI replacements for HMVP.

[stevech]

v2: that was an off the wall comment, too sarcastic.

On the DELETE key: With the MVP's remote, I just counted 7 button pushes to delete a recording, starting with the screen list of recordings.

It was suggested that I can add a delete key if my remote doesn't have one. Well, the MVP I purchased from Sage has no Delete key.

Am I stuck with the 7 button pushes unless I customize the remote?

[stevech]

Originally Posted by Hector

But you do clearly define the problem, 1) you resist change (a flaw you erroneously attribute to everyone) and 2) as you say you’re ‘habit trained' to the point you can’t effectively learn new things..

The personal pronoun doesn't go to ME, but to the family members. How 'bout if YOU come over here and deal with the complaints about v6/MVP versus V4?

They'll take change, as long as you don't make it less convenient. Human Factors 101: Don't remove what people use frequently and are accustomed to. Add the changes on the tangent.

[mayamaniac]

Stevech,

I use the # key on the MVP remote as the delete key. You highlight the show you want to delete, you press the # key, a message pops up asking "are you sure?" You select "Yes" and thats it. In previous versions, the default selection is "No", so you have arrow up to select "Yes". In 6.2 the default is "Yes".

The font sizes are fine on the MVP, I have no problems reading any of the fonts. And my visions are no where near 20/20. And since most people are fine with it also, then this is just an isolated case where very few people find the fonts too small. If they make it bigger, there will be complaints from the majority here.

-Opus4,

As for the long file names being to small, I'm really surprised this hasn't changed since the beginning. As a UI designer, I don't know how you can look at a bunch of show titles, and there's one line with really small font and small icons, and not be bothered with it. I can understand if time is a factor where its just at the bottom of the priority list. But between version 1 to 6, I thought it should've been fixed a long time ago. Personally, I rather have it scrolled after a second or so pause than being truncated.

I understand you work on the UI and is a bit offended by Stevech's first post, but reading your posts, it does seem that you took it personally and should've reply with a little more professionalism, but that's just my opinion.

[stevech]

Thanks for the tip on the # key on the MVP.
NOTE: Page 245 of the USER MANUAL says that key is unused, so I guess you've mapped it.

Font size: Since it looks good to some people, and it's way too small for me, and I've posted JPG screen grabs showing impossibly small fonts, I must assume that my 6.1 version is misconfigured.

I just downloaded the 6.2 version and ran it on a spare laptop. They eliminated the silver background for highlighted things. That should help the MVP display - I'll get brave and try it tomorrow.

Not sure what to do about preserving the settings I have for clients and MVPs in 6.1 when moving to 6.2.

As tp constructive criticism, man, you should go to some of the design reviews I go to - my peers are merciless. I dog through it and wind up with a better proposal or implementation and later thank these folks.

[mayamaniac]

If you shutdown SageTV and delete or move the sage.properties or sageclient.properties files out of the SageTV folder, then start SageTV, it should create new properties files with all the default settings. Those properties files store all the configurations and settings such as themes, menus settings, EPG settings, tuner settings, etc. The wiz.bin file stores the recordings info, favorites, watch status, etc.

As for constructive criticism, what you posted in the first post is anything but constructive. Saying "The GUI designers need to go back to square one and 'eat their own dog food'" is an insult. So although I don't agree that Opus4 should tkae it personally, but you shouldn't be surprised that he did. Better to leave the insults out if you are looking for help.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

If you shutdown SageTV and delete or move the sage.properties or sageclient.properties files out of the SageTV folder, then start SageTV, it should create new properties files with all the default settings. Those properties files store all the configurations and settings such as themes, menus settings, EPG settings, tuner settings, etc. The wiz.bin file stores the recordings info, favorites, watch status, etc.

As for constructive criticism, what you posted in the first post is anything but constructive. Saying "The GUI designers need to go back to square one and 'eat their own dog food'" is an insult. So although I don't agree that Opus4 should tkae it personally, but you shouldn't be surprised that he did. Better to leave the insults out if you are looking for help.

thanks for the tip.

I am over the top on the "eat your own dogfood". I'm guilty of blowing off frustrations - because in the opinion of the family members here, not me, the ease of use is declining rapidly due to glitz and lack of attention to how things look on the MVPs, and so on. The frustration builds since the releases after v4, up to 6.1, are trending worse and worse. To the point where people in this house insist that I either revert to v4 or they go to TiVo or cable DVR. I see that v6.2 changed colors and fixed some of the tiny font stuff. I hope this will assuage most of the complaints about 6.1 in this house. Too many button pushes as compared to prior versions is the main compaint.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by stevech

The MVP makes this far harder to read, due to its raster size being small - and, not shown in this graphic, the too-high contrast between black-on-silver is beyond what the MVP's video bandwidth and pixels/inch can do. Nor the TV. The fonts look like they have white shadows on the silver backgrounds, but it's badly smeared. The UI designers need to look at their work via the MVP on a modest CRT-based TV.

I don't know what you consider a modest CRT TV. This smearing problem you describe sounds to me like the brightness, contrast and saturation controls need to be calibrated properly.

The video signals from digital devices such as the MVP are very pure. If your TV isn't calibrated properly for their output you can get smearing.

I have a large SD 32" CRT TV and don't get any kind of smearing as you seem to be describing it. I may get some ghosting but that's pretty much par for the course for SD signals.

[tipstir]

Originally Posted by stevech

thanks for the tip.

I am over the top on the "eat your own dogfood". I'm guilty of blowing off frustrations - because in the opinion of the family members here, not me, the ease of use is declining rapidly due to glitz and lack of attention to how things look on the MVPs, and so on. The frustration builds since the releases after v4, up to 6.1, are trending worse and worse. To the point where people in this house insist that I either revert to v4 or they go to TiVo or cable DVR. I see that v6.2 changed colors and fixed some of the tiny font stuff. I hope this will assuage most of the complaints about 6.1 in this house. Too many button pushes as compared to prior versions is the main compaint.

What happens if you use Hauppauge MediaMVP software with SAGETV how does the text look on your TV? If it lookes the same as SAGETV then there is a problem with your TV. I've compared the two SAGETV and Hauppauge pretty much the same, but I think SAGETV uses bett font smoothing.. I use both CRT and LCD sets.

Have you increased the fonts for the SAGETV? But I know if you do too much they you run into problems with the fonts. You can only go so much in size, otherwise it starts to bleed over.

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by stevech

another example.

I'd say that the most common thing in this menu is to delete recordings. The delete choice is not in the top of the menu's list where it belongs. (you would not access this menu to "play now", you'd push the play button).

If there's a quick (fewer button pushes) way to delete recording(s) in a folder, I haven't found it.

Not so true. I use a 12" Touchscreen, and not a remote control to select and play recordings. Using this method sometimes the corser will 'land' on the DELETE function when I select a recording. I've almost erased instead of playing a selection on severial occations. And IMHO the DELETE functions should NEVER be so available.

JMTCW

[stevech]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

I don't know what you consider a modest CRT TV. This smearing problem you describe sounds to me like the brightness, contrast and saturation controls need to be calibrated properly.

The video signals from digital devices such as the MVP are very pure. If your TV isn't calibrated properly for their output you can get smearing.

I have a large SD 32" CRT TV and don't get any kind of smearing as you seem to be describing it. I may get some ghosting but that's pretty much par for the course for SD signals.

Modest TV = mid-priced CRT. I have two. Both look fine for cable signals- no smearing. Both display the MVP's black on silver as smeared. I hope this is all moot with the elimination of that color scheme in Sage 6.2. I cannot calibrate the s-video input brightness/contrast independently of the TV's built-in tuner. I've tried, but there is no setting that works for both. Maybe newer TVs can do so independently. We of course use both the tuner and the MVP.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by Paul H

Not so true. I use a 12" Touchscreen, and not a remote control to select and play recordings.

JMTCW

Now how many user have touch screens!

If you do choose DELETE, there's one more "are you sure". After 7 (I counted) button pushes to get from a particular recording to the YES delete it.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by stevech

Now how many user have touch screens!

If you do choose DELETE, there's one more "are you sure". After 7 (I counted) button pushes to get from a particular recording to the YES delete it.

Can't believe I'm suggesting this (I guess I've finally drunk the customization Kool-Aid ), but have you tried nielm's multi-stop plugin? When I did run SageMC, the multi-stop behavior was one of the nice things I liked about it.

I do think that the Delete functionality should require a couple of different key presses as the default behavior (in other words, a button-click, down-press, and another button-click) to avoid accidental deletions, but I also delete a show after watching it. However, I mostly use Placeshifter without a remote, so mousing to delete is not a big deal.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by stevech

Now how many user have touch screens!

If you do choose DELETE, there's one more "are you sure". After 7 (I counted) button pushes to get from a particular recording to the YES delete it.

Thats why they give you the option to map the Delete command to a button as a direct command to delete, as I already mentioned in previous posts in this thread. As for the "Are You Sure?" pop up, it is necessary to prevent accidental deletions. They can remove the popup if they change the way deletions work in SageTV so that it actually moves the file to the Trash bin, which allows you to undelete if you accidently delete something. This is the way computer works where you actually have to empty the trash to permanently delete the files. This has been discussed before in other threads, but I don't think SageTV would change this deletion philosophy. Personally, I have no problems with the way things are concerning deletions.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by stevech

Modest TV = mid-priced CRT. I have two. Both look fine for cable signals- no smearing. Both display the MVP's black on silver as smeared. I hope this is all moot with the elimination of that color scheme in Sage 6.2. I cannot calibrate the s-video input brightness/contrast independently of the TV's built-in tuner. I've tried, but there is no setting that works for both. Maybe newer TVs can do so independently. We of course use both the tuner and the MVP.

I guess I'm confused about what you consider smearing. If you have an example of what you're talking about that would be great. But to me it sounds like you have the brightness ramped up too high which causes the lighter colors to over saturate and cause horizontal streaks across the screen.

My TV is probably considered by your definition to be modest. It's a Sharp that I paid about $250 for about 4 years ago. I've calibrated the picture with a DVD made for that purpose. I don't use my TV for anything but my DVD player and MVP. The picture as calibrated looks excellent on both. And being a "modest" TV it really has a great sharp picture. Since I've calibrated it the picture never over saturates and isn't overly bright or dark. It's just right.

Honestly, once you calibrate your TV (mine I actually use strictly as a video monitor, I have absolutely no need for the built-in tuner) you shouldn't have to change it for different sources.

[stevech]

Sage 6.2 is installed now.
Good news: The new color scheme for the selected item in a row solves that smearing problem.

There's one request I can't figure out how to satisfy:
In the list of shows in a folder of recordings, reduce this from 6 in the list to 5, so that the font is hopefully larger. Looks fine on a PC, but on the MVP, the font is too small.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by stevech

Sage 6.2 is installed now.
Good news: The new color scheme for the selected item in a row solves that smearing problem.

There's one request I can't figure out how to satisfy:
In the list of shows in a folder of recordings, reduce this from 6 in the list to 5, so that the font is hopefully larger. Looks fine on a PC, but on the MVP, the font is too small.

I'm not sure how you can do it through the GUI, but you can edit the proerties file for the MVP.

sagetv_recordings/num_rows=5

I actually had two of these in my properties file; not sure why. The first one affected all four of the views in the recording schedule.

[CollinR]

Any changes you make to the interface you need to redo for each MVP, so the font sizes can be completely independent. IIRC it is the yellow button on the MVP to get into the properties for adjusting the font. I just manually edit the client.properties file and bump all the fonts on the MVPs. I think once you have dynamic main menu installed the yellow button brings that up instead. I also do customize the MVP menus, remove the stuff thats basically pointless like Play DVD. You can also ax means of modifing the config.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

I'm not sure how you can do it through the GUI, but you can edit the proerties file for the MVP.

sagetv_recordings/num_rows=5

I actually had two of these in my properties file; not sure why. The first one affected all four of the views in the recording schedule.

Forum search told me that the properties for an MVP is in the "clients" folder. I have one, looks like MVP's MAC address.

I changed the only instance of
sagetv_recordings/num_rows=5
to =4
rebooted MVP. Did not stop/start sage service (should I?)
Still have 5 rows.

AH, but now the properties file seems to be back at 5, not 4. I did this twice, edit/close/reopen to make sure I did change it. Yes, I did.
Maybe I can change the font for the recordings menu to be larger via the properties? If so, I don't know which property to edit (there are lots of font size properties).