Building a house system. Suggestions?

[ToonGal]

The more I read about Sage and its user base (the general happiness), the more I really want to get going on this. I'm interested in understanding if I can really achieve everything I want with today's (and v2.0 soon to be released) tech. I really prefer the 'hands on' approach I see available here, as opposed to continuing w/ regular Tivo or some MSFT solution. The most important factor is this all seems more "real" instead of the virtualware I see/saw elsewhere.

Current facts/situation:
- 5000+ sq ft house, 2 levels
- DSL ISP 1500/128 connection, terminating in office (2nd floor)
- 802.11b wireless config (wired NOT an option unfortunately, no access). can upgrade to 802.11g easily enough if helpful / necessary
- 2 tuner SageTV server desired in office. No computer can support this yet, but plan on buying new / dedicated machine for 24/7 usage.
- 3 active televisions minimum; 1 in office, 1 in bedroom (2nd fl), and 1 in family room (1st fl, long distance from office, but laptop works wirelessly)
- Digital cable box in family room, but will move to office if/when Sage server live / distributable to all TVs. (One tuner digital cable, one analog?)
- Would like Server to be accessible to all TVs (probably by IP wirelessly) via remote. Spouse NOT technically oriented, and wants "Tivo feel"; personally, I want low level control, as I see available via Sage.

Desired information:
1) What type of computer would be minimally required? What speed is recommended if I plan on using this as my new desktop machine? The highest CPU function running 24/7 on this new machine are p2p's (such as eMule, mIRC), but light processing outside of that (such as IE, office, etc.)
2) What TV tuner(s) are recommended? I'm thinking two Haup 350's for the tuners, but will obviously go w/ 250's if the majority don't see the need for the higher end tuners. Or maybe one of each? Diff vendor? (I figure Haup is the way to go given Sage demo'd in their CES booth.)
3) What h/w is required for the (wireless?) redistribution? People mentioned the MediaMVP in my other thread, but this seems to be a wired-only solution. Not possible.
4) What h/w is required for local/wireless access to the office-located cable tuner and tv tuners, including the IR functionality?
5) What s/w is required from SageTV? I'm still confused exactly what SageTV/client/recorder s/w differentiations are, and which I'd need to implement.
6) Will the quality of the cable signal degrade with all the splits I envision in my office? Wall split for dig cable tuner 1, analog cable tuner 2, and VCR/TV? Still not sure the best way to config this.
7) What size HD is generally recommended? I want a few 'season pass' things for PBS kids for my son to have a library of shows. Can it span more than one HD for recording?

Add'l questions, outside of the config scope:
a) Can the Haup (or recommended) TV card(s) support DivX (and other fmt) video files, if the codecs are installed on the machine and play w/ WMP?
b) Can Sage support externally recorded / downloaded audio/video files, when WMP can play them?

I'm sure there are other things I can/will think of, but wanted to get some initial feedback, given this is a very intruiging project. Excited about the prospect, from what I saw at CES.

Thanks for the help, and all the great feedback in the other thread.

[ErsatzTom]

You won't get off the ground with 802.11b. Wired is the way to go. If you absolutely can't go wired, you need at least 802.11a or 802.11g. Typical throughput on 802.11b wouldn't even get you playback to a single client, so 3 is out of the question.

t

[fidget]

Here is my $0.02.

1) If you are only going to be using two tuners, any PC should do. If you want to go beyond two, you will probably want one with an Intel chipset (my VIA based motherboard couldn't handle three tuners).

2) I would recommend getting PVR-250s. The hardware decoder won't buy you anything on your server PC and there are some issues with having two PVR-350s installed (or so I've read).

3) I believe that your 802.11b wireless network won't be able to support an MPEG stream. Although it is rated at 11Mbps, you should expect to see about 2. The lowest quality DVD compatible MPEG stream is 1.8 GB/hr, or about 4 Mbps. A high-quality MPEG stream is 3.25GB/hr, or around 7.5 Mbps. If you upgrade to 802.11g (or a), you can expect to see about 11 Mbps. Since you have 3 TVs, you won't be able to keep more than one going at any given time.

4) I can't help you with that one (from your wording, I'm not sure what you are asking).

5) In your setup, you will need SageTV on your main recorder PC. You will need the SageTV client only on those PCs from which you want to watch recorded programming (my set top box has a copy of the client). If you want to use the MediaMVP, you won't need a copy of the client software.

6) I run my analog signal through a video amp (I only have analog cable). The resulting signal is very strong and clean.

7) I would recommend getting a dedicated drive for the recorded programs (120 GB or larger), formatted for 64K blocks. You can span more than one drive, you just add the path to each additional drive to the list of available storage locations.

[ErsatzTom]

Originally posted by fidget
If you want to use the MediaMVP, you won't need a copy of the client software.

Until they get the sage MVP client out.

[ToonGal]

Originally posted by fidget
4) I can't help you with that one (from your wording, I'm not sure what you are asking).

No way to wire the cable or RJ45 on any floor or between them. The remote TV's have to watch the media server through the 802.11g (which was my assumed upgrade) network.

I guess what I'm asking is if there is a wireless way to do MediaMVP wirelessly. I don't have/want add'l computers in the equation for television, outside of the Sage media server. And even IF MediaMVP were wireless, what add'l things do/would I need to make all the infrared parts (sage, cable box) work remotely?

Thanks for such quick feedback all! This is exactly the reason the Sage environment is so enticing to me.

[ErsatzTom]

Well, it wouldn't be as cheap as most would like but you could certainly hook up the MediaMVP to your wireless network. The easiest way is with one of the console game adapters which basically bridges between a wired and a wireless network. They can be had at amazon for ~$90-$100. You might be able to get an access point for less that is capable of bridging. This would require more initial setup headaches but you would be buying something that has more potential uses. However, you have to make sure that you get an access point that a) has bridging and b) can bridge with your main access point (using the same mfg for both is the safest bet). Either way, I hope you like tinkering.

Another possible option might be powerline networking. That gets you 14Mbs. I don't have any experience with these products but I think that someone on this board mentioned them earlier. Basically, they let you run ethernet over you houses 110v power lines. Not sure what the issues are or the real world throughput as compared to 802.11g.

t

[dgage]

I just ran wire in my APARTMENT this weekend from upstairs to downstairs so wiring is always an option. I ran it under the carpet and baseboards so that it is virtually invisible and it goes between floors through the pantry and linen closet. In my opinion you could do this without it even being noticeable.

NOTE: Be careful when drilling through walls near kitchens and bathrooms as there very well could be drain pipes. I actually had to cut a little hole in the wall to make sure there weren't any pipes where I was about to drill. However, this hole is easily patchable.

To go between floors, I had to go to the home center and buy a 54" screw-drill flexible drill bit that electricians use. I am so glad I bought that as it was a lifesaver and made it very easily to drill holes between walls just under the edge of the baseboards. I used a wire snake (also available at any home center in the electrical section) to help feed the wire under the carpet pad so you don't even feel the wire underneath your feet.

My honest opinion is that you will be unhappy if you try to go with 802.11g and then expect to play 3 streams of decent quality. You really should try to go wired if you can. If not, you need to look at putting PCs with each of the other TVs and plan on copying the video to the local PC before playing it. You should be able to start watching the video while it is still transferring but you should probably give it a 15 minute head start for an hour long show. Also, think if you will actually be streaming 3 shows at the same time. We have 3 TVs but we are only ever using two at the same time. Just a thought.

Good luck.

David

[ErsatzTom]

If you could get even one or two of the systems wired together it would reduce the required bandwidth on your wireless network.

t

[SHS]

As retired a Plumber 2 story are just as eazy 1 floor house but the key thing is find wall that run all way to roof but this can be major problem if you have concrete floor unlike claw space.
As for walls near kitchens and bathrooms well that eazy being the drain pipe the comin g out the wall is usely 36" or less to left or rigth of wall and depead on weather or not there windows and as for DBL bathrooms sink it usely in midd of wall with cross with drian going both way unless it more then 36" then it may have DBL vertical stack in same wall.

[IKK]

I own a 2 story house. I am also running a client upstairs with my main pvr server down stairs. My main computer server is upstairs in one of the bedrooms that is converted to an office. My setup was as followed. I ran all the bedrooms which are upstairs with cat6 cable and used a wireless 802.11g hub in the office. The main PVR server located downstairs has a wireless g card connected to it. The card sends the info to the hub and directs it to the bedrooms. I also use this setup to do any editing. I copy the file to the main server in the office and do my editing there which in turn I can burn it to a cd or dvd rom. That way I can keep as few programs on my PVR Server as possible. I have yet run into any problems with this setup.

[stanger89]

I'll give it a shot.

1) Just about anything will do, recording takes squat for CPU power. Anything new you get will have more than enough power. Stuff in the 2.4-2.6GHz range seems to be a sweetspot now in price/performance.

2) Just get 250s, 350s aren't any better, they just have hardware decoders and FM tuners neither of which will do you any good in a network setup like you describe.

3) The MediaMVP will be the best choice once SageClient is released for them, but we don't know when that will be. Until then, an MVP will let you browse/play anything recorded in Sage, but no control. If you want a full-up client, right now the best way is probably a Mini-ITX system based on the EPIA platform.
As Tom said, you can always use an bridge to go from ethernet to wireless.

4) I'll state what was stated above, go for wired to anywhere you can, you'll be much happier in the long run. But for wireless hardware, go Orinoco. It's more expensive but I've given up on wireless until I can get that, plus it's what ISU uses on campus. I'd recommend 802.11a, and make sure everything is from the same manufacturer. If you get all Orinoco stuff you can use Turbo mode to get 108Mbps (theoretical). Just be aware that the faster wireless modes (g/a) fall off quicker that b over long distances so even if you get a g/a setup it may not work any better than b at the other end of the house (what's your signal strength in the client locations?)

5)SageTV - the brains, it does all the scheduling/recording/PVR stuff, it's what you saw at CES (I'd guess).
You'll run this on your server.

SageClient - A remote interface to SageTV, it allows a remote computer (Client) to access another running SageTV (server). From SC you can do just about anything you can in SageTV (except for tuner/channel setup/etc.). It's independent you can watch something different on SC and SageTV at the same time.
You'll run this on your clients.

SageRecorder 1 - Digital VCR (not PVR) works like a VCR no EPG no intelligence.
SageRecorder 2 - Network encoder for SageTV, SageTV can use a networked computer with SageRecorder and a tuner just like a local tuner.
You probably won't need this.

6) One or two splits isn't a big deal, it's when you start getting up towards 6 that you might want an amp. I'll mention that the tuner in the 250 is very good, it works better than the one in my TV.

7) Recommended? I'd say 200Gb, they seem to be a sweetspot right now (price/Gb). You can get a nice one for about $150-170.

a) I don't know of anything that records to DivX other than software encoders, but you'd need some massive hardware (3.2GHz+, maybe P4 w/ Hyperthreading or Athlon 64) to record/playback more than 1 stream.

b) Sage can play back just about anything but windows media (ie divx/xvid/mpg).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on your goals and what you like (multi-client, home media, like lowlevel, etc) here is a proposed setup that should do everything you want, right now, and pretty well.

Setup 1

SageTV server
Average new computer - 2.4-2.6G P4 with 865 chipset (semi overkill, but a good desktop PC)
1 - PVR 250
1 - 200Gb HD 8Mb cache, 10-20Gb partition for OS/apps, rest for SageTV 64k clusters.
1 - Copy SageTV

SageClient clients
Mini-ITX EPIA based computer with small/cheap drive for OS and stuff.
1 - PVR 350 - for hardware decoding of recorded shows.
1 - Copy SageClient - for access to SageTV server
1 - Copy SageRecorder - to allow Sage to use 350 as network encoder.

Pros:
-350s will provide excellent PQ on clients (if using standard non HD TVs)
-Fully interactive clients
-3 tuners
-Don't need to move cable box

Cons:
-Having network encoders will at least double the bandwidth requirements at times (could use up to 48Mbps (12 * to/from each client) if recording/playing Max quality on both clients)
-350 can only decode MPEG, no divx or DVDs
-Need copys of SageRecorder


Setup 2

SageTV server
Average new computer - 2.4-2.6G P4 with 865 chipset (semi overkill, but a good desktop PC)
2 - PVR 250
1 - 200Gb HD 8Mb cache, 10-20Gb partition for OS/apps, rest for SageTV 64k clusters.
1 - Copy SageTV

SageClient clients
Mini-ITX EPIA based computer with small/cheap drive for OS and stuff.
1 - Copy SageClient - for access to SageTV server

Pros:
-Fully interactive clients
-No SageRecorder needed (cheaper)
-250s cheaper than 350s
-Less bandwidth (24Mbps at max quality)

Cons:
-EPIA PQ may not be as good as 350's

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll say again, if at all possible, go for a fully wired network, it will work better. If you can't, try to wire at least one of the clients, that would cut your wireless bandwidth requirements in half. The best way to do a mixed wired/wireless would probably be to go Orinoco 802.11a in Turbo mode (108Mbps) to the second floor, and wired to the first.

You should be able to do everything you want to, buy you might have to make a tradeoff here or there (wired network, EPIA clients). This is basically what I'm planning to do after I graduate, so you aren't alone in this goal.

Good luck.

[ToonGal]

@stanger89:
Fantastic! This is exactly what I was hoping for. This gives me a clear line of site as to where I could/should think of heading. In both cases, the common server unit configuration looks the same, and I might want to just start with that SageTV server to get things started and add on from there.

People were mentioning the MediaMVP configuration in previous posts. Were I to FIND a way to wire up a remote TV, could/would that change the configuration? That looks like a much more useful component, and obviate the need for add'l comptuers around the house. My guess is that this WILL have some future implementation, from what I can glean, but just not yet w/ Sage.

The growth path could be just the server installed in the main viewing room, and use it like Tivo, with future parts added as created.

Thanks again for the help stanger/all! Future follow-ups / questions after processing all this data, I'm sure.

[ErsatzTom]

I started with the server too. Currently I just watch on my computer monitor (on a different computer) but over the next month or so I will be putting a STB together. I think I finally have my server stable and I'm very excited about it.

As for the MediaMVP, you certainly could do it wireless, it would just cost a bit more. The cost of the wireless components aren't much when taken in the context of putting a pc together but when added on to a client that only costs $100 itself, it seems more onerous. Wired or wireless, it sounds like the MVP might be a good solution for you. As matters stand now, with the MediaMVP you can already watch all of your recorded shows. You just can't do all of the other stuff you would do with a sage client (delete them, move them to the libraries, add favorites, schedule recordings, etc). However, even if Sage doesn't release a client for the MVP, I'd put money that some clever soul will make at least some of that functionality available on it. Personally, I'd love to play with one of these but I am also planing on using my client to watch dvd's and play pc games so I need to build a STB. You can bet, though, that the when I want to put another tv on my network it will have one of these (or something like it).

t

[sixdoubleo]

Originally posted by ToonGal
@stanger89:
People were mentioning the MediaMVP configuration in previous posts. Were I to FIND a way to wire up a remote TV, could/would that change the configuration? That looks like a much more useful component, and obviate the need for add'l comptuers around the house. My guess is that this WILL have some future implementation, from what I can glean, but just not yet w/ Sage.

I currently use a SageTV Server in the back room. It's a Duron 1.3Ghz w/256MB RAM and 2 PVR-250 cards. While I have 2 Sage TV Clients in other areas of the house, I just couldn't see putting a PC in my master bedroom or my garage, where I have TV's installed and would like to take advantage of watching Sage-recorded material. So in that case I chose a MediaMVP. As long as you don't care about scheduling recordings and managing/deleting recordings, the MediaMVP will work very nicely right now. Think of it as a "read-only" client for viewing recordings. The interface is VERY easy to use, and can be customized quite a bit. Picture quality on the MVP connected to a Cheapie Costco 27" Sharp TV is excellent. Even if they didn't come out with a Sage Client for the MVP, it would still be a very useful product as is. There were/are some initial bugs in the unit, which Hauppauge has been pretty quick to fix. I'm quite happy with mine, and it has definitely allowed me to fully enjoy Sage recordings throughout the house.

I have a wired network though...you should try very hard to get as much of your network on copper as you can.

[pawn]

Setup 1

...

SageClient clients
...
1 - PVR 350 - for hardware decoding of recorded shows.
...
1 - Copy SageRecorder - to allow Sage to use 350 as network encoder.

...

Cons:




You forgot one con for this setup: each client used as a network encoder requires a cable or sat feed.