What features are important, or "make" a Movie Library?

[stanger89]

Title really says it all, what really "makes" a Movie Library? What is it that makes, for example "My Movies" so coveted?

[95TBird]

Well, Iv'e never used "My Movies" But I think I can sum it up for me.

1. Cover Art (front & back)

2. Searchability

3. Ease of use (Translation WAF)

- Bruce

[PGPfan]

I think it's the ease of use that has My Movies high on everyone's list to have. Granted DVDProfiler 'is' powerful, but it lacks elegance from a users prospective. If we had an import that could recognize any new files imported to 'Videos', and then automatically looked up the relevant metadata from DVDProfiler (or whoever the souce was) and merged all that data into the wiz.bin that would answer all the short comings.

As for what the interface should look like, well the 'MovieNight' and 'TVNight' add-ons for Meedio look pretty sexy to me, but that'd be the easier part to re-create with Studio if I'm understanding it correctly.

-PGPfan

[CollinR]

Like you have mentioned before this should be split frontend/backend.


I think also a consideration of an additional private database might be a decent idea.

[ecoolman]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Title really says it all, what really "makes" a Movie Library? What is it that makes, for example "My Movies" so coveted?

I used to use My Movies with MCE2005. There were a number of things I liked about that software, which I think the previous two posts summed up pretty well. The UI is very intuitive on the 10ft interface. The three notable features I liked about My Movies:

Stacking - if you have a movie that is broken into several files (which is fairly common for downloadable content), when you click on the movie folder/icon, it knows to play each file in the folder (alphabetically) automatically with no noticable pauses when it switches between files. It also supports auto mounting and playing DVD ISO files, which is typically how I store my DVDs if I want to keep the menus. I believe SageTV supports this as well, but I haven't tried it.

Metadata Browsing and Searching - when you are browsing your movie collection, you can index by name, genre, etc. the info page contains every detail of the movie, coverart, producer, actors, movies trailers, etc. From this screen, you can browse through each of the actors in the movie to view the actor profile, which lists all the movies they appear in. The movie database is also searchable by all the metadata fields.

Content Sources - the My Movies database manager was not part of the 10ft interface, but instead a thick client app that you ran on your PC. It allowed you to quickly import and edit the movie data, trailers, pictures, etc from several sources, like IMDB or Amazon, and about 10 other sources.

What I didn't care for:

Data Storage - it stored the movies coverart in one central directory, actors pictures in another, and the metadata in a Microsoft access database. Personally, I didn't care for this at all. I'd prefer to see metadata in XML files, and kept in the directory with the movie files along with the coverart, etc. This way I could keep my movies on removable storage, then when I plug in that storage, the media center 'discovers' it, and displays it in the movie browser GUI. When the media is detached, it doesn't show in the interface.

[Crashless]

For my useage, the major two factors are:

1. Easy to Maintain
2. Easy to Use

If it's a pain to enter in my DVD data, I won't add DVDs, and if it takes too long to figure out what to watch, I'll just turn it off.

It would be great to be able to simply put in a DVD, have it ripped, have the metadata entered and be done in 1 step. At the end of the day, I really don't care where the data comes from, if it's internal or external, just that it's there and I can view it easily.

I also think the current SageMC movie screen is close, but I think it could be slicker, and cleaner. UFGreyMatter's MovieNight is a great example of a clean-slick interface.

[vvulture]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Title really says it all, what really "makes" a Movie Library? What is it that makes, for example "My Movies" so coveted?

- Ease of use
- Ability to catalog box sets ie: series --> season --> episode
- Uses it own database ( no DVD Profiler crap )
- Nice interface
- Cover Art
- Can use VOB files

Should i go on ?

Thing is, i have been down this track before but nothing ever happens..

See http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25152

[Addict]

I'd love to see AUTO-imports of IMDB data and images. Sucks to have to re-import this manually. Also, if you change the directory structure of your DVD's, the IMDB data is lost and you need to manually re-import them all. I'd like an option to have it do this for me in the background.

I'd also love to see a nicer interface, or at least more display options. Something a little more "flashy". Then again, this applies across the board for the Sage interface. There's a lot of new stuff out there that's really killing it from a UI perspective... Sure, it requires more client horsepower, but some folks are building some beefy systems these days.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

I think it's the ease of use that has My Movies high on everyone's list to have. Granted DVDProfiler 'is' powerful, but it lacks elegance from a users prospective. If we had an import that could recognize any new files imported to 'Videos', and then automatically looked up the relevant metadata from DVDProfiler (or whoever the souce was) and merged all that data into the wiz.bin that would answer all the short comings.

That's kind of a problem, because from what I've seen, DVD Profiler has by far the best (most complete, most data) library of any "end user" database, it and MyMovies are really the only ones that don't rely on web-scraping, and last time I looked at the MM database (when DVD Profiler's future was in question), seems like it couldn't find a lot of my DVDs.

As for what the interface should look like, well the 'MovieNight' and 'TVNight' add-ons for Meedio look pretty sexy to me, but that'd be the easier part to re-create with Studio if I'm understanding it correctly.

-PGPfan

I'll just say this now, if I do anything, it will be made to mesh with the stock STV, so it can be imported into the stock STV.

Originally Posted by CollinR

Like you have mentioned before this should be split frontend/backend.

Ideally (from my POV) the backend should be Sage, it's got a lot of media management features built in. Obviously the data source can't be Sage, so there needs to be a data retrieval layer and then the UI.

I think also a consideration of an additional private database might be a decent idea.

The only thing private databases have going for them is they're cheap. I use DVD Profiler, and I "advocate" it, but even so, I'm not entirely happy with it due to it's "user" nature. If we could use AMG or Gracenote, I'd much rather use one of them.

Originally Posted by ecoolman

I used to use My Movies with MCE2005. There were a number of things I liked about that software, which I think the previous two posts summed up pretty well. The UI is very intuitive on the 10ft interface. The three notable features I liked about My Movies:

Stacking - if you have a movie that is broken into several files (which is fairly common for downloadable content), when you click on the movie folder/icon, it knows to play each file in the folder (alphabetically) automatically with no noticable pauses when it switches between files.

I'll get this out of the way too, I'm not going to make any effort to support downloaded content.

That said, I'm not sure if there's a way to convince Sage a media file is multipart (like it does with recordings)...

It also supports auto mounting and playing DVD ISO files, which is typically how I store my DVDs if I want to keep the menus. I believe SageTV supports this as well, but I haven't tried it.

I think anyone who reads AVS knows what I think of ISOs They really don't work well with Sage, lots of kludging needed to get them to work and it seems pointless when Sage fully support DVDs as file/folders.

Metadata Browsing and Searching - when you are browsing your movie collection, you can index by name, genre, etc. the info page contains every detail of the movie, coverart, producer, actors, movies trailers, etc. From this screen, you can browse through each of the actors in the movie to view the actor profile, which lists all the movies they appear in. The movie database is also searchable by all the metadata fields.

OK, this is the kind of stuff I was really looking for, features. (FYI, Sage has a lot of this already ).

Content Sources - the My Movies database manager was not part of the 10ft interface, but instead a thick client app that you ran on your PC. It allowed you to quickly import and edit the movie data, trailers, pictures, etc from several sources, like IMDB or Amazon, and about 10 other sources.

DVD Profiler

What I didn't care for:

Data Storage - it stored the movies coverart in one central directory, actors pictures in another, and the metadata in a Microsoft access database. Personally, I didn't care for this at all. I'd prefer to see metadata in XML files, and kept in the directory with the movie files along with the coverart, etc. This way I could keep my movies on removable storage, then when I plug in that storage, the media center 'discovers' it, and displays it in the movie browser GUI. When the media is detached, it doesn't show in the interface.

Originally Posted by Crashless

For my useage, the major two factors are:

1. Easy to Maintain
2. Easy to Use

If it's a pain to enter in my DVD data, I won't add DVDs, and if it takes too long to figure out what to watch, I'll just turn it off.

But what would make it easier to find something?

It would be great to be able to simply put in a DVD, have it ripped, have the metadata entered and be done in 1 step. At the end of the day, I really don't care where the data comes from, if it's internal or external, just that it's there and I can view it easily.

Here's probably the biggest thing (ok two things) that stop me from even investigating ripping:

1) Nothing command line will rip just the main movie, and that's how I rip all my movies.
2) I've never used my HTPC to rip things, to me that's a maintenance thing that I do on my desktop.

Originally Posted by vvulture

- Ease of use
- Ability to catalog box sets ie: series --> season --> episode

I've got ideas how to do box sets (especially now with DVD Profiler 3).

- Uses it own database ( no DVD Profiler crap )

Sorry, I'm not going to try and learn another app. That said, if anybody's got some motivation, I'm sure we (Crashless, I and unknown person with motivation) could figure out how to make the STV part generic to use DVD Profiler or another library to pull data.

- Nice interface

I don't think I have any artistic taste

- Cover Art
- Can use VOB files

My plan is to use Sage's built-in media player, I didn't see a need to use another one before, and especially now with the HD100 out, any solution really needs to use the built-in media player or it will be useless to people with extenders.

Originally Posted by Addict

I'd love to see AUTO-imports of IMDB data and images. Sucks to have to re-import this manually. Also, if you change the directory structure of your DVD's, the IMDB data is lost and you need to manually re-import them all. I'd like an option to have it do this for me in the background.

As far as auto-importing goes, that's rather tricky on a couple levels. First one being there's a MediaFileImported hook, but I think it only works on the server, and only if you're not running the service. If you're using the service, I don't think there's any way for the STV to know a file was imported.

The other one is matching names, but I guess that's tricky either way.


And I'm not trying to shoot down anybody's ideas, I'm really just trying to manage expectations. Many here probably know this has been a long running, no-results thing for me. I really want Sage to have a better movie library, but I really just get stuck whenever I sit down to work on it. What Sage has today is 90-95% of what I want/need.

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by stanger89

But what would make it easier to find something?

Sorry, I should have been more specific. By easier to find, I meant "Easier to make my wife and I agree on a movie to watch". As ecoolman said, sorting by actor, year released, etc. would be really nice.

That plus better/easier metadata retrieval would get me to about 95%.

An old feature that I enjoyed with Meedio was trailers. It was cool to say, "Come on, let's watch that one" and hit watch the trailer, which is usually a better sell than a synopsis.

As I write this, I have absolutely no idea how something like that could work, as I don't know if you can associate one media file with another. There may be a way to filter out and find collisions based on name though. IE: "Gladiator-trailer.mov" could be ignored in all the listings except in the details of "Gladiator" if a file called "Gladiator-trailer" was found it could display a button.

Of course that opens the can of how to get said trailers, but that said - it would be nice.

[mikesm]

I used to be a big MyMovies user on MCE. here's why I thought (and still think) it's so great:

1) Ease of install - you run the installer, spec a few directories, and boom, everything shows up in MCE.

2) Separate PC based client program to manage the library. A common metadata database stored out on one directory for all the MCE clients to read, but with one point of common control. Update it from the management utility, and every client is updated automatically - no running updaters on clients, etc...

3) Great metadata without hassle. I dunno, but the mymovies database has lots of kids DVD's that dvdprofiler's don't. I really don't know why it's so good, but it's accurate and works well.

4) The management application is very well done. I was correcting a directory path when I moved some titles around. I did it for 3 titles, and then it asked me if I wanted to do it to all of them, even though mass replacement of directory info wasn't an option. It never surprised me. Things just seemed to work.

5) Great disc detection from the rip. I didn't need to have the DVD in the drive to have it select the proper disc, scan a bar code, etc... It picked all it needed up from the rip.

6) Low hassle. It's very well integrated into MCE. No converting of files, or having to manually add info. It took the location of the rips and the metadata and they all appeared in MCE without problem.

7) It handles box sets and series well too, so I don't have to create subdirectories.

8) It's pretty too. :-) Looks matter in terms of usuability, but I have to say, this isn't the main reason I like it so much.

thx
mike

[ecoolman]

Originally Posted by stanger89

whenever I sit down to work on it. What Sage has today is 90-95% of what I want/need.

Reading over this thread, it looks more to me like this should read DVD Profiler is handling most of what you need.

The beauty of SageTV is it runs on multi platform, that's largely why I dumped MCE/My Movies for SageTV, they've done an excellent job with the Linux product. DVD Profiler looks a windows only product, that we'd have to shell out an extra $30 for, to boot. Have you considered any existing Java based dvd collection managers?

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by ecoolman

Reading over this thread, it looks more to me like this should read DVD Profiler is handling most of what you need.

The beauty of SageTV is it runs on multi platform, that's largely why I dumped MCE/My Movies for SageTV, they've done an excellent job with the Linux product. DVD Profiler looks a windows only product, that we'd have to shell out an extra $30 for, to boot. Have you considered any existing Java based dvd collection managers?

DVDprofiler and it's interface to Sage leave much to be desired as compared with Mymovies and MCE. After all, that functionality is available today in SageMC, yet tons of people want mymovies. There are good reasons for this.

[Crashless]

Has anyone taken a look at Griffith?

http://griffith.berlios.de/

It seems to be an interesting Open Source DVD database manager. I find it interesting because it supports exporting to XML, which could mean easily porting the current DVD Profiler plugin to read it's output.

It is also interesting because it supports a very large range of sites to scrape data from. Don't like the synopsis from IMDB? Try DVD Empire, or one of a HUGE list of other options. It is multi-platform to, so it would be an alternative for our Linux brothern.

The problem is, I can't find any documentation on any sort of API to use it externally from Sage, meaning there is no simple way to add new DVDs to the database or leverage it's scrapers to pull data.

This could at least be an alternative for those who don't want to buy DVD Profiler. At best, since it's open source, it seems to have a lot of potential in that we might be able to persuade the lead developers to open it up an API to us.

Thoughts?

[vvulture]

Hey Stanger,
if this comes to fruition, i will drop Media Portal in a heartbeat and come back to Sage.
The lack of a decent DVD library is the only thing holding me back from using Sage.

cheers

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by ecoolman

Reading over this thread, it looks more to me like this should read DVD Profiler is handling most of what you need.

Nope, it means that out of the box Sage will display all my ripped DVDs, and I can select and play them. That 90-95% of what I want, what I use, and why it's so hard for me to ever get anywhere on a project for Sage, I'd just be adding the "coolness", the icing.

DVD Profiler looks a windows only product, that we'd have to shell out an extra $30 for, to boot. Have you considered any existing Java based dvd collection managers?

The $30 fee is unfortunate, and the best reason for there to be an alternative, I can completely understand the problem with requiring the use of a "non-free" data source.

Unfortunately, I've looked at DVD managers, and IMO, nothing even comes close to DVD Profiler, OK, MyMovies (the backend) is close, but I was not happy with the completeness of their database vs DVD Profiler.

Originally Posted by Crashless

Has anyone taken a look at Griffith?

http://griffith.berlios.de/

It seems to be an interesting Open Source DVD database manager. I find it interesting because it supports exporting to XML, which could mean easily porting the current DVD Profiler plugin to read it's output.

It is also interesting because it supports a very large range of sites to scrape data from. Don't like the synopsis from IMDB? Try DVD Empire, or one of a HUGE list of other options. It is multi-platform to, so it would be an alternative for our Linux brothern.

Ah, I couldn't find any info on the data source. Honestly, I don't think highly of the web-scraper managers.

The problem is, I can't find any documentation on any sort of API to use it externally from Sage, meaning there is no simple way to add new DVDs to the database or leverage it's scrapers to pull data.

This could at least be an alternative for those who don't want to buy DVD Profiler. At best, since it's open source, it seems to have a lot of potential in that we might be able to persuade the lead developers to open it up an API to us.

Thoughts?

I really think the way to go is to help/support someone who wants to integrate a different data source.

Originally Posted by vvulture

Hey Stanger,
if this comes to fruition, i will drop Media Portal in a heartbeat and come back to Sage.
The lack of a decent DVD library is the only thing holding me back from using Sage.

But what's missing? That's what keeps stopping me from making any progress.

[vvulture]

Originally Posted by stanger89

But what's missing? That's what keeps stopping me from making any progress.

So why even bring this thread up again ??? We have gone thru this before.. we get it dude.. you don't want to make any progress. Fine.


Anyone out there interested in making progress ??

But seriously, to answer your question, me personally, i need a simple , easy , wife proof way to catalog DVD Box sets as well as normal dvd's, all with pretty pictures and stuff for the kids and the wife... thats it !! I don't understand what kind of an answer you are after..

Stanger, go to http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25152 and see that we have gone over this before.. It's an endless loop.

The current solution isn't up to the task. period.

If you don't see the need for progress, please stop bringing this up and stop teasing people. It's bad enough i don't have the brain power or time ( because of married life ) to learn how to program myself. If i could i would, but unfortunately like many others, i sit on the side line and wait patiently.

regards,

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by vvulture

So why even bring this thread up again ??? We have gone thru this before.. we get it dude.. you don't want to make any progress. Fine.

You're missinterpreting my posts. I started this thread because I've got a week off and I was thinking about spending part of that week getting around to my (long-standing) project to build a better UI for the movie library.

But seriously, to answer your question, me personally, i need a simple , easy , wife proof way to catalog DVD Box sets as well as normal dvd's, all with pretty pictures and stuff for the kids and the wife... thats it !! I don't understand what kind of an answer you are after..

OK, here's my situation:

I don't have MCE, I don't have Vista, I don't run MCE, thus I can't play with MyMovies. I did try to get MM to work when I was running the Vista RC, but I couldn't get it to work so I've really got no idea how the UI functions.

For me, the primary (90%) function of a DVD library is to allow you to browse (with cover art) and play DVDs. Sage does that out of the box, so I was soliciting opinions on what, above and beyond that, make a DVD Library app/system great.

From reading the forums, I'd think there was something fundamental missing from Sage's native library.

Stanger, go to http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25152 and see that we have gone over this before.. It's an endless loop.

I zipped through that again, and most of the actual discussion was about the MyMovies database, there was very little about what makes the GUI so good.

The current solution isn't up to the task. period.

Browse by Genre? Filtering? What are the biggest things that are missing? Maybe I'm thick, maybe I've got different priorities.

If you don't see the need for progress, please stop bringing this up and stop teasing people.

Not trying to tease people, see above, I was hoping to work on it this next week while I'm off, but without getting some concrete features that people want to see, I'll find myself in the same old situation, unable to get past my "writers block".

[vvulture]

Originally Posted by stanger89

OK, here's my situation:

I don't have MCE, I don't have Vista, I don't run MCE, thus I can't play with MyMovies. I did try to get MM to work when I was running the Vista RC, but I couldn't get it to work so I've really got no idea how the UI functions.

Ok.
Here's a thought... Install MCE2005 or Vista. You get 30 days without activation.
Try MyMovies and see for your self.

I'm not trying to be nasty Stanger, but i think that if someone in your position were truly serious about all this, you would try MM and finally get an idea of what people are looking for..
I know you said you have tried it before, but give it another go.. :-)
Many people here ( including my self ) would greatly appreciated your efforts.


cheers

[95TBird]

Stanger:

For what its worth.

I agree with your assessment that the current interface has 90 to 95% of what is needed.

I get the impression that there are folks who seem to want My Movies inside of Sage.

Lets be realistic, that simply is not going to happen, it would be a total rewrite of the interface & I suspect there are some things the Sage core simply would not support.

I'm also a DVD Profiler user & I look at it this way. I have over 500 DVDs in my collection. For the sake of argument, let’s say I got them all on sale for $10.00 each, that’s $5000.00 So I consider $30 for the convenience of the high resolution cover art, synopsis, etc. to be a Deal...

But if something that has cover that is just as good & a database that is just as robust can be found, for less, or for free, then I'm all for it!!

If I understand what Stanger is saying correctly, he is asking for realistic input, that he can actually implement to make the existing interface better.

SO, If I understand your request correctly Stanger, Here are my inputs...

(If I have misunderstood what you are asking for Stanger Please feel free to correct me !!!)

1. I'd like to see front & back covers (Perhaps front only Icons with selectable large front & back upon right click ?)

2. Faster loading Icons (not sure how you would manage this, cashing ??)

3. Easier organization of sets / series (some kind of virtual folders with assignable Icon ?)

4. More flexible screen layout (I'm a MC16X9 user & to be honest the new version has me wishing ALL screens could be arranged like this!)

By the way Stanger... Thanks for all your previous work !!

- Bruce