TIVOizing SageTV - Making SageTV more Plug n Play

[Brent]

An article I read on MSNBC saying that the MS Media Center was a "miss" for Microsoft got me thinking. Actually I was tipped off about this article by Chris Lanier. I then read a comment from a HTPC software leader who said this:

"I agree that it's been a miss. The TIVO model is the right one IMO -- a standalone box, no PC required, but interfaces to the PC."

That comment struck me as this came from a person very "into" the HTPC world.

With Media Center weakened somewhat with the Vista backlash and Snapstream somewhat distracted by it's enterprise software venture I think the time is ripe for SageTV to actually compete with TIVO for a more general audience - a TIVO-type audience. I've been thinking about this for a while and wondered what others thought of this. Should SageTV work towards a plug-n-play type server box? A TIVO-esque pre-configured/built server box. One that is fairly simple plug & play type device with server capability.

Add this along with the extender and you have a device that will be more attractive to the Tivo, turn-it-on-and-it-works crowd. Yes, many people (myself included) would prefer to build their own server PC, but I think this would appeal to more of the masses. Make them forget it's a PC running things and make it simple as possible. Even if it costs quite a bit I think it would do well.
Things it should include:

• Ability to change out hard drive
• Active USB2 ports for expansion
• Powerful enough to transcode decently
• Powerful enough to handle HD-PVR output
• Little setup required
• Lots of outputs for compatability with TVs, AV equip etc.
• Ethernet

I have no idea if SageTV would ever go down this route, but I think it might be a good idea. What do you think?

[Apap]

It's an interesting concept, but................................

What I like about Sage is the flexibility and configurability. To keep with the plugnplay concept, Sagetv or whatever supplier tried this would have to pretty much lock down many of the configuration options. Could you imagine Joe sixpack trying to install comskip and/or SageMC simply and easily?

I am sure this marketing model could work but reasonable restrictions would be required on just how and what you could do to expand or change things.

Just my 2c.
Apap

[jrog]

I've been thinking about this very thing a lot lately, as I have several family members that wanted me to set them up with a Sage System, but they all wanted the same things, and they all wanted it to be simple. In my opinion, I think the "server" box should be a reliable, small, simple system that can be located in a wiring closet, or basement, or garage, where ever the home owner has their cable and internet feeds coming in from the street. The box doesn't need to be ultra high end or anything, and should be basically ready to go out of the box. Put in one of the new Dual Hybrid tuners, and you'll satisfy a TON of the marketplace. No settop box fees, no cable cable card rentals, no monthly service fees.

Then, make it so that devices like the HD-PVR are just plug and play, and configured from the Extender, and I believe you'd cover just about everything for a new, basic customer. In my family, I'm the only one that cares about all the aspects of the system to the point that I had to build my own, but they like the features to be simple, and to work properly.

For those that wish to expand on the box, load customizations, etc, it should be easy to let them do that, but for the people that just want something to work, and download major updates when they are through the beta process automatically, well, that would be great.

I think the biggest thing is that Sage is different from Tivo in that it's built as a multi-room DVR system, Tivo is not. Focus on a solution that appeals to users who want a multi-room system, and then make it rock solid and dirt simple.

[bcjenkins]

No poll? Could SageTV do it? Yes, I think so.

Focus on the UI needs to be applied though.
I find I need to wear glasses to read the screen. Some of the menus don't make sense.
Why have live tv?

It should dump you into the program guide or into recordings. If you are dumped into a parental controlled channel, it doesn't go well for the end user.

Too much troubleshooting happens in the properties file.

How come there isn't a debug enabler in the STV?
What about a send log feature?

Those are just a few off the top.

B

[Brent]

Originally Posted by bcjenkins

No poll? Could SageTV do it? Yes, I think so.

I agree there needs to be some work to make the first-impression and setup of SageTV better and easier for the new user. This was one of the main reasons I took so long to go to SageTV over BeyondTV in the past.

Focus on the UI needs to be applied though.
I find I need to wear glasses to read the screen. Some of the menus don't make sense.
Why have live tv?

Agreed. I remove live TV from my menu screen as it really doesn't make sense.

It should dump you into the program guide or into recordings. If you are dumped into a parental controlled channel, it doesn't go well for the end user.

I think there should be a setting (maybe there is one) that allows you to choose where you are "dumped" when you start SageTV. A few obvious options: LiveTV, Guide, RecordedTV, Main Menu

Too much troubleshooting happens in the properties file.

I agree I guess, but not sure what to do different to make things better.

How come there isn't a debug enabler in the STV?

Do you mean a "turn on debug" menu option? I think that would be nice.

What about a send log feature?

I'd like this for sure. In BeyondTV the log is viewable in the webadmin over the net. Would be nice to have settings and the log accessible on the web. Would also be nice to have optional RSS feed or e-mail option for error messages etc.

[flavius]

I don't think Sage wants to grow that much. I'd think they'd rather be rich.

[Taddeusz]

I believe in order to make it easy enough for Joe Blow to use it they'll have to create some kind of embedded version which is capable of running on a much slimmer OS. Something that can withstand being shut off out of nowhere. Nobody expects to need to "shutdown" their VCR.

To make it more compelling than Tivo they also need to move to a multi-user system of some kind. That way it's able to track more than one person effortlessly without people needing to work around the limitations of the current system. As it stands a recording could accidentally get deleted if one person watches it and neglects to make sure nobody else has watched it and leaves the "watched" flag set.

It should also include the ability to at least play store-bought DVD's at each viewing location. The ability to rip DVD's might also be considered since the legality of that has recently been decided by Kaleidescape recently winning their case against the DVD-CCA.

The music library's usability should also be improved as well as adding the ability to rip music.

This would all turn SageTV into a true media center that would be accessible by the masses. Not just geeks.

[Addict]

I've definitely thought of this, and mentioned it on a few posts in the past.

I think the easiest road to implementation of something like this is to simply build a piece of hardware that can handle basic server functionality, and use an HD-PVR to feed it and an Extender to view it.

So yeah, you end up with three pieces of hardware...but no subscription fees, much more flexibility, ability for multi-room, etc.

Setup:
* SageTV Server ($200-$300 range?)
* SageTV Extender ($200)
* HD-PVR ($250)

So, you're looking at $650-$750. A TiVo Series3 HD costs $600 plus subscription fees... and yuck. Oh yeah, TiVo Series3 and HD don't work with Satellite. Sorry.

The beauty of this configuration is the following:

1) Those that want to build their own still can.

2) You don't lose flexibility in being able to connect to a network-connected NAS or other storage devices (and thus, ComSkip could be run on them directly).

3) Sage could ultimately start consolidating devices (maybe imbed an HD-PVR into the SageTV Server, maybe imbed all three at one point in time)

I can't imagine why Sage wouldn't consider something like this. Throw in the Netflix Watch-It-Now functionality into your Extender and voila...instant everything for almost everyone.

[Djc208]

If they wanted to go down this path I'd think a partnership with someone like HP or Dell (smaller maybe to start but ultimately get to this level).

Start with an WHS box that has the plug-in HDDs, dedicate one to Sage and one to everything else. Throw in a Hybrid tuner and let Sage supply the software. Throw in an HD extender as part of the package and you'd have a turn key server/extender option and people can add clients/placeshifters later if they wish.

The biggest problems still comes back to moving the content around and getting all of it, most houses don't have Cat5e/Cat6 for extenders and wireless just won't cut it. And while the HD-PVR may work it's far from plug-and-play yet. If someone drops $800~1000 or more on this setup (turn key) then you're going to have to provide better automation for setup or people will just send it back and buy a DVR from their Cable/sat company, which just works.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Djc208

The biggest problems still comes back to moving the content around and getting all of it, most houses don't have Cat5e/Cat6 for extenders and wireless just won't cut it. And while the HD-PVR may work it's far from plug-and-play yet. If someone drops $800~1000 or more on this setup (turn key) then you're going to have to provide better automation for setup or people will just send it back and buy a DVR from their Cable/sat company, which just works.

For it to be at all attractive to the average Joe on it's own it needs to BE a set top box. I believe the reason that neither Media Center nor as an extension WHS have really taken off is because an average Joe doesn't want to have something stuck in a closet somewhere. They just want to plug it in like their cable box and have it work.

Until that is possible SageTV will mainly penetrate into the geek market.

[bastafidli]

I think what Sage needs is to make the HD extender the Internet media player without the need of software. That means very thin software layer running directly on HD Media Extender that allows
1. play Netflix Watch Now
2. Listen to Internet Radio
3. Play other internet media (YouTube, etc.)

Once user has this in house plugged in and working, then he might be tempted to extendeng and get a "home server" that will store all their media (cd, dvd, images and act as and DVR). This box would need to be marketed similar to how NAS are currently. That is headless box, plug and forget and work very autonomously
- insert disc (CD, DVD), it is automatically ripped and available to extender or can be played without being ripped
- confiurable via extender, client software of browser

[mayamaniac]

Isn't that what the Nextcom R5000 HD Mod is for? And the reason all of us don't run out and buy it becuse it cost too much. We rather spend less and build it ourselves and have the flexibility to use the PC for other things beside for SageTV.

So the problem is it costs too much, so how do you bring the price down? Tivo does it by charging a subscription fee, which means they can price the device for less and make up for the cost later. This isn't the answer for SageTV as I can assure you the users here will be leaving SageTV the day they start charging a subscription fee.

Another option is something that is already in place, SageTV for Linux OEM. Building a SageTV server with Linux will definitely bring the cost down. I'm surprised since the release that no OEM companies has jumped in to make a SageTV hardware server product.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Another option is something that is already in place, SageTV for Linux OEM. Building a SageTV server with Linux will definitely bring the cost down. I'm surprised since the release that no OEM companies has jumped in to make a SageTV hardware server product.

Support. If you've ever worked for an IT helpdesk you'd understand. Dealing with the clueless masses is oh so fun.

[pjpjpjpj]

I love this topic, but I think quite a few of the comments above are from people who are too tech-savvy (or haven’t been around enough people who aren’t?)… so I’m going to try to bring this down to the basest, most computer-unsavvy level possible (I’m good at that since I’m not the technophile most of you are ) since that’s the crowd that this gadget would be for.

Let’s face it, the public has been very slow to show interest (and may never) in doing their home computing on their TV set. It’s hard to read, you sit too far away, many people have bad eyesight, etc. You don’t want a clunky keyboard and mouse to store (and not lose) in your living room/family room/bedroom (even if they are wireless). If people were truly okay with this, the “Media Center” PC idea would have taken off a lot faster.

The general public is loathe to the suggestion that they have to get a new PC. The idea of moving data over, getting it set up, plus the expense, scares off a large amount of the public (in direct contrast to most here, who rejoice in every opportunity to buy more gear). And the public doesn’t want to pay the price of a gadget that is effectively an amped-up Tivo, especially not for each TV they own. That’s why I don’t think you can make SageTV into a packaged STB.

There are three items that make SageTV worth leaving the “trusted comfort” of Tivo.
1. The access to all of your other media, as well as internet content like youtube and podcasts.
2. The ability to access all of this centrally-stored media from any TV on the system.
3. The ability to add, expand, change, tweak, and improve.

#1 and #2 are the keys to the mass market, and what puts SageTV ahead of a simple Tivo. #3 would only target a certain portion, but simply having the ability (even if it goes unused) would entice some people.

Making SageTV into a STB won’t allow it to keep these three “unique” items, unless you effectively make it into “computing on your TV”, which, as mentioned above, the public does not want. And if you make it a STB, then presumably you are intending that there will be one at each TV set. This effectively negates #2 (even if they talk to each other).

People would love having function #1 on their Tivo – especially older folks, being able to show pictures of the grandkids, being able to check the weather, being able to easily watch something funny on youtube that they heard Ellen Degeneres or Regis Philbin mention. But they’re not going to buy a separate STB gadget where they would have to move all of their media to it. My parents don’t even know where their pics are stored on their PC, they just open some photo software and it finds the pics for them.

I think SageTV would have to remain as software that goes on their existing PC – and perhaps tweaked such that the hardware requirements are even less than now, so older machines will work (obviously, it would be “hardware encoding only”, or “watch on the TV through an extender only”, and no watching on the PC). Most folks, no matter how unsavvy, can install new software, especially if it’s “put in the disk, click OK several times and let it install per defaults”. Most people could buy a USB hard drive and plug it in. That’s all they need. The setup wizard in SageTV right now is simple enough. And believe it or not, if you don’t mess with anything (like we all do ), you don’t even need debugging logs, or any kind of messing with the properties file (I’ve never had to do either of these).

To me, there is one big stumbling block - the issue of tuners and distribution. The average public isn’t going to be able to put a tuner card in their computer, and many are even too scared to plug a network device (like a HDHomerun) in with a CAT5/6 cable. And many of the various cards have issues with configuration, not to mention performance glitches. Plus, people aren’t going to fish network cable around the house. The solution would be a gadget that had multiple tuners (say, four minimum) AND a distribution amp with coax in and out, all in one. Most people with cable/satellite already have coax fished, so it would have to work through that. Basically, you need to create a single gadget that would take your “cable in” or “satellite in” (and it would need to act as the cable/sat STB, requiring no UIRT stuff, so there would need to be licensing deals cut there), it would have a single cable connection to your PC (CAT5/6, maybe USB), and then a bunch of amplified coax “cable out” jacks. The gadget would have to be small and convenient enough to go in the basement or attic or wherever people have their TV service entry into their house, and it would replace the cable splitter(s) there. Then all people would have to do is get that CAT6/USB/whatever wire to their PC.

I envision this package:
1.Software
2.Distribution amp/tuner box
3.HD Extender

Gadget #2 would come with a 50’ CAT6 cable and a “RJ45 to USB” adaptor (you could connect to the PC either way). It would take your sat/cable coax in, have four internal tuners, and have 4 coax outs, plus the RJ45 jack for the connection to the PC. It would be PNP – when you plugged in the USB or network cable, the PC would recognize all four tuners and Sage would pick them up automatically. There would be no UIRT issues since all cable/sat boxes were replaced with this packaged gadget, and changing a channel in SageTV would change the tuner (similar to OTA/QAM).

The Extenders would be the same as now, except with coax in instead of network cable.

Base package for all of this would have to be $350-$400. You could get an “advanced” package that comes with a 500Gb USB hard drive and a second Extender for $550-$600.

Is this possible (and for this price)? I have no idea.

Just my $.02.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Making SageTV into a STB won’t allow it to keep these three “unique” items, unless you effectively make it into “computing on your TV”, which, as mentioned above, the public does not want. And if you make it a STB, then presumably you are intending that there will be one at each TV set. This effectively negates #2 (even if they talk to each other).

My thought is that you have a "main box" which would serve as the server. Probably hooked to your main TV like current Tivos. Nothing that you'd shove in a closet. Depending on the situation you could either be wired or wireless (802.11n of course) to a network. Most people who have broadband most likely have a wireless router of some sort. Wireless certainly isn't the most reliable thing but could be "good enough" for most. You could even make it so that the main box can act as a wireless AP if there is not an existing wireless network.

Then for additional TV's you'd simply have extenders that pull everything from the main box that could connect wired or wirelessly (either through an existing network or directly to main box). They would need to be made simple enough that an average Joe could get it working without too much fuss.

At the worst they might need to call in that family member or friend that knows everything to help get it set up. These are the people whose VCR perpetually blinks 12:00 because they can't figure out how to set it.

I believe a system could be made well enough and simple enough to attract non-geeks. But I'm not sure that SageTV is anywhere near the position to do so. If they were I would think that they'd partner with someone else to make, market and sell the hardware while Sage provides the software.

Of course this would also require that the main box be CableCard compliant so that it could integrate seamlessly into cable service. The average Joe is not going to want the mess of having the multitude of devices just so he can record TV. This is the reason Tivo and by an extension cable company provided DVR's are so popular. It's just an all in one box.

But the desire is there among average people to be able to record stuff and have it be viewable on any TV. We have the technology. It just needs to be made simple enough to be useful.

[Brent]

Wow, lots of good responses here. The issue isn't nearly as simple as one would think.

Let me ask you this. Would it make sense to have a lower-end simple box that was pre-configured, only expandable by one or two hard drives that you could switch out as well as expandable via USB ports, not silent, not small, runs on Linux and updatable with firmware updates only?

You could still update themes, add-ons and such but wouldn't have to worry about installing, setup etc since it was all there. Only updates would be firmware and hard drives. Would that work for those that just wanted to Plug In?

Obviously as has been mentioned, SageTV could use some work on making setup easier in the first place though.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Brent

Let me ask you this. Would it make sense to have a lower-end simple box that was pre-configured, only expandable by one or two hard drives that you could switch out as well as expandable via USB ports, not silent, not small, runs on Linux and updatable with firmware updates only?

But to be accepted by the every day Joe it would need to be quiet and small. No larger than many of the cable TV DVR's or the larger Tivos. Something that the average wife would approve of.

[stevech]

The Sage user interface, esp. viewed via the MVP, was written by engineers, FOR engineers.

My wife complains every day: TOO MANY CHOICES, TOO MANY BUTTON PUSHES FOR COMMON/SIMPLE THINGS; TOO MANY USELESS GOODIES IN THE MARGINS, and so on. FONTS TOO SMALL (at 800 x 600). "Why don't we just get a TiVO she says"

[stuckless]

I think the biggest stumbling block to building an stand-alone sage is cost.... (as others have noted as well). The HD extender is a good starting place, they would have to add in 500gig drive mimimum, and optionally a dvd player (and license dvd playback), and support for digital cable/sat (since all cable is going that way). Next would be the cost of production.... Sage can't afford to commission 1000 units at a time, some they'll do smaller batches, which will reduce their margin even more. If they get thier costs somewhere around $500, then it's still outside of what the average user will pay.

I also would wonder how many cable/sat providers would want to partnership, since now they all selling their own STB PVR.

Their next hurdle is marketing.... I've been a pvr users since they first came out.... I've bought a pvr every 2 years, and I've paid over 500 for each of them.... I find it amazing when I talk to people about a PVR, that they see no "value" in it. I've spent years talking to family and friends about how great it is to have a PVR.... and no-one gets excited about it. Even my tech friends were/are hold outs. Now eventually when they do get a pvr because of some "special" or "deal", they immediately become evangelist

While I agree that Sage could put some effort into making the UI more user-friendly, I think that their target market isn't "joe blow", but you and I. It's a smaller market than the "joe blow" market, but it's an easier market to enter, and easier to support.

[othy]

Originally Posted by stuckless

While I agree that Sage could put some effort into making the UI more user-friendly, I think that their target market isn't "joe blow", but you and I. It's a smaller market than the "joe blow" market, but it's an easier market to enter, and easier to support.

I think this hits the nail on the head. I sure most of us have had the experience of having friends admire our SageTV setup and ask what it would take to set one up. If they aren't tech-savvy, the answer is usually something along the lines of "get a tivo." As great as SageTV is and as generous as I try to be with my time, I'm not willing to be 24-hour tech support for a bunch of friends everytime a quirk comes up in Sage or any of the other apps we use on our set ups. I'll put my server/Extender combo up against a Tivo in terms of stability and reliability now, but that came after a LOT of time spend with setup and tweaking.

Tim