TIVOizing SageTV - Making SageTV more Plug n Play

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by stuckless

Their next hurdle is marketing.... I've been a pvr users since they first came out.... I've bought a pvr every 2 years, and I've paid over 500 for each of them.... I find it amazing when I talk to people about a PVR, that they see no "value" in it. I've spent years talking to family and friends about how great it is to have a PVR.... and no-one gets excited about it. Even my tech friends were/are hold outs. Now eventually when they do get a pvr because of some "special" or "deal", they immediately become evangelist

While I agree that Sage could put some effort into making the UI more user-friendly, I think that their target market isn't "joe blow", but you and I. It's a smaller market than the "joe blow" market, but it's an easier market to enter, and easier to support.

Originally Posted by othy

I think this hits the nail on the head. I sure most of us have had the experience of having friends admire our SageTV setup and ask what it would take to set one up. If they aren't tech-savvy, the answer is usually something along the lines of "get a tivo." As great as SageTV is and as generous as I try to be with my time, I'm not willing to be 24-hour tech support for a bunch of friends everytime a quirk comes up in Sage or any of the other apps we use on our set ups. I'll put my server/Extender combo up against a Tivo in terms of stability and reliability now, but that came after a LOT of time spend with setup and tweaking.

Tim

These two posts brings up an important point, that the PVR market is still a small market. As popular as Tivo is in the tech-savvy crowd, Tivo isn't doing that great in terms of profits. They had to change their business strategy just to stay alive. I remember reading something about adding advertisements during skip forwards on the Tivo. And I think they also increased their subscription fees over the years.

So even if SageTV becomes as good as Tivo in terms of user-friendliness, and at a reasonable cost, there's no guarantee that they can appeal to the bigger market. The average Joe "Blow" might still rather get the DVR provided by the cable/satellite company. He still gets all his channels in HD and he can record all of them without caring about QAM/DRM/etc. And he doesn't care all that much about accessing photos, music, and videos on his computer. Unlike the SageTV users here, he doesn't have a large music, video, DVD collection ripped on his PC. He probably doesn't even have the 2 terabytes it takes to store all those things. That's the average Joe, and he doesn't need SageTV.

I like that SageTV is for guys like us, not Joe Blow. So why should they dumb it down for the Joes when they don't even want or need or all the features that SageTV has to offer. That's what the DVRs from their providers are for.

[nick_l]

1) While my post history might indicate that I like to bitch about Sage, I have to say that no other software purchase/hobby I have made has given me more satisfaction and enjoyment (Homeseer is number two on my list, for those that might care). Sage is a great product. With that out of the way: PLEASE PLEASE clean up and unify the gui and menu structure!

2) The market for stand-alone set top pvrs is dead. TiVo knows it, that is why they are focusing their energies on developing software and licensing for the content providers. An average user doesn't want to deal with renting a stb from the cable/sat. company then purchasing another box and cobbling together some way to change channels and get the video into the box. For the most part it means loosing additional services like on demand as well. TiVo has decided that the best way to capitalize on their brand and UI is to license their software to the cable/sat companies and get their money that way. I would be suprised if TiVo actually releases another hardware box. The only way that would change is if all of the content providers would cave in and develop some universal standard (and not the joke that is the incestuous Cable Card).

Im OK with the fact that Sage will never be everywhere because that means that Sage has more time to focus on us and our needs. And with products like the HD-PVR coming out we can still have our content and not be dictated to by the content providers as to how and when we can consume our media.

Choice is good!!

Nick

[mistergq]

Unfortunately, with HD becoming prevalent, and cable companies eliminating analog signals, while I think this is a good idea, I don't see it happening. The cost, just not start up but the monthly costs, to record HD cable/satellite/fios is cost prohibitive for this market to ever take off. Even if you could build a box for under $500, to record anything HD that is not OTA or Clear QAM, it would require a monthly subscription for HD boxes. In fact, I think you need the default box to be able to record two HD channels at once. We know why you would want to pay not only the start up costs, but also monthly costs. But for the average user, they think its a waste of money, even though they probably blow more money on much more frivolous purchases such as starbucks, that does not mean they would place value on making such a sacrifice.

I will say I have been also thinking about this. Beginning in November '07, I replaced my server, then switched from BTV to Sage, then purchased an HD tv and got the bug to move to the next level, purchased 2 HD 100s, purchased a HDHomerun, purchased an antenna, and then purchased a HD-PVR. I still want to get another HDHomerun so I can record 4 OTA channels. I also want to purchase another HD-PVR, and eventually another 2 HD 100s. The HD-100s are low priority. I want to get an HD Homerun before the start of the fall season. I think I am going to ask for another HD-PVR for christmas - have my relatives go in on one. Needless to say that I spent a lot of money in the past year. In fact, I think I have spent more money in the past year on this hobby then I did in 5 years before that. However, once I am done, I think this set up will last for at least 5 years. The only thing I will be concerned with is storage!

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

The average Joe "Blow" ... doesn't care all that much about accessing photos, music, and videos on his computer. Unlike the SageTV users here, he doesn't have a large music, video, DVD collection ripped on his PC. He probably doesn't even have the 2 terabytes it takes to store all those things. That's the average Joe, and he doesn't need SageTV.

While I agree with most of the other stuff you said, MM, the things you mention above - accessing photos, DVDs, music, videos (online content specifically), plus the plug-ins I have added like MovieTimes, IMDB search, Weather report suite, etc. - are the very things that have blown away friends who have visited and seen my Sage set-up. "Whoa! You can do that from your TV???"

None of them are very tech-savvy, but most of them (even my mom) can rip a CD/DVD. And they all indicated they would love the ability to have all of their DVDs available on the TV. I can't tell you how many copies of Disney/Pixar DVDs our neighbors have bought because their kids just destroy the discs (picture dropping a DVD on concrete, stepping on it, and dragging it across the concrete with your foot…. yeah, one of their kids did that…. ). If they had all of the movies available on the “TV menu”, there would be no more “destruction of hardware”

But the thing that has gotten the most “wow” factor is neilm’s webserver plug-in… when I was at a friend’s house, logged on, and started playing my MP3s and watching my DVDs on his laptop.

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

But the thing that has gotten the most “wow” factor is neilm’s webserver plug-in… when I was at a friend’s house, logged on, and started playing my MP3s and watching my DVDs on his laptop.

Remote access has become one of my favorites too.

[gblinckmann]

I keep looking at these solutions as the "one way" that SageTV should go to become big. With all these answers, it really looks like there is no one answer to how to do this.

I'd love to have a pre-built Windows Home Server with Sage on it and pre-configured to pretty much just works when you turn it on. Does that mean that it's the only answer and that the Windows, Mac, and Linux versions aren't important? I don't think so. One of the reasons I stick with Sage is that they support all these platforms and that I'm not really tied to any one platform. I like that all the extenders that I've bought will work on all the platforms.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Brent

Obviously as has been mentioned, SageTV could use some work on making setup easier in the first place though.

I haven't given up on the original concept of this thread, but for now does anyone have any suggestions/ideas of ways to make the current SageTV easier for new users to get started? I have some ideas but curious on what you guys think. My initial thoughts:

• Basic guides on how to convert from BeyondTV, MCE, VMC, MythTV and other popular HTPC software programs
• Make it easier to convert already recorded programs into the TV's section of SageTV (BTV now has a way, but how about others?)
• Clean up the default UI, easier to make easy to read for instance
• Make it easier to add/remove menu items without a plugin
• Add a way to turn on/off the log for SageTV and SageTV Client from the 10-foot interface
• Ability to RSS subscribe to the log file?

Your thoughts?

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

These two posts brings up an important point, that the PVR market is still a small market. As popular as Tivo is in the tech-savvy crowd, Tivo isn't doing that great in terms of profits. They had to change their business strategy just to stay alive. I remember reading something about adding advertisements during skip forwards on the Tivo. And I think they also increased their subscription fees over the years.

So even if SageTV becomes as good as Tivo in terms of user-friendliness, and at a reasonable cost, there's no guarantee that they can appeal to the bigger market. The average Joe "Blow" might still rather get the DVR provided by the cable/satellite company. He still gets all his channels in HD and he can record all of them without caring about QAM/DRM/etc. And he doesn't care all that much about accessing photos, music, and videos on his computer. Unlike the SageTV users here, he doesn't have a large music, video, DVD collection ripped on his PC. He probably doesn't even have the 2 terabytes it takes to store all those things. That's the average Joe, and he doesn't need SageTV.

I like that SageTV is for guys like us, not Joe Blow. So why should they dumb it down for the Joes when they don't even want or need or all the features that SageTV has to offer. That's what the DVRs from their providers are for.

Having gotten a Tivo about 5+ years ago (free with my switch to DirecTV at the time, I didn't necessarily want it), and recalling how my wife and I used to rave about it to friends ("OMG, you HAVE to get one, it will change the way you watch TV!!")... and realizing how limited, in so many ways, a VCR is in comparison... and how I can't believe I used to live by the Sunday paper's TV Guide or the cable co.'s onscreen guide.... it still amazes me how many people use VCRs and have no interest in switching to DVRs (because they've always used the VCR, know how it works, and don't know how much better the DVR is).

And then I think about the future, both next February (OTA) and whenever the heck cable companies finally switch to digital, and how the millions of VCRs in the US are all going to become basically useless (actually, just more difficult to record with, since you will either need a converter box or digital cable box and will need to have that STB set ahead of time to the station you want to record from).

Basically, it's going to force people to make the switch (unless, for some reason, companies choose to begin making VCRs with ATSC tuners, which I highly doubt!). And, now that I think about it, I have not seen one mention of this aspect of the digital switchover. This is one that's going to cause a lot of heartburn... until they all get their DVR/Tivo's and realize what they were missing.

If Sage has any aims to try to grab some of that market, they better do it before the cable companies start handing out digital boxes to every subscriber, and switch that signal in the line to a digital one... because at that point, every cable user's likely to just buy the one that the cable company is selling. And I have to imagine that the cable company will be cutting huge deals, price-wise, to make sure people buy theirs.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by Brent

I haven't given up on the original concept of this thread, but for now does anyone have any suggestions/ideas of ways to make the current SageTV easier for new users to get started? I have some ideas but curious on what you guys think. My initial thoughts:

• Basic guides on how to convert from BeyondTV, MCE, VMC, MythTV and other popular HTPC software programs
• Make it easier to convert already recorded programs into the TV's section of SageTV (BTV now has a way, but how about others?)
• Clean up the default UI, easier to make easy to read for instance
• Make it easier to add/remove menu items without a plugin
• Add a way to turn on/off the log for SageTV and SageTV Client from the 10-foot interface
• Ability to RSS subscribe to the log file?

Your thoughts?

Sage should certify certain people as "Certified Sage Installers". Allow these people to act as consultants (collecting a fee) to work with clients to determine their needs and then either build and install the systems or guide the more advanced users through the process of doing it themselves.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by Brent

I haven't given up on the original concept of this thread, but for now does anyone have any suggestions/ideas of ways to make the current SageTV easier for new users to get started? I have some ideas but curious on what you guys think. My initial thoughts:

• Basic guides on how to convert from BeyondTV, MCE, VMC, MythTV and other popular HTPC software programs
• Make it easier to convert already recorded programs into the TV's section of SageTV (BTV now has a way, but how about others?)
• Clean up the default UI, easier to make easy to read for instance
• Make it easier to add/remove menu items without a plugin
• Add a way to turn on/off the log for SageTV and SageTV Client from the 10-foot interface
• Ability to RSS subscribe to the log file?

Your thoughts?

Brent, in getting new users to try SageTV, the difficult part is getting them to decide if they want it in the first place. Without understanding the benefit of SageTV, they might not want to invest their time and money into it.

So they need to get to know SageTV before they make the investment. The one thing that I always thought was missing and REALLY needed are video demos of what SageTV is all about. Throughout the years, no one has done this. We have screenshots and videos of the interface, but that's about it.

I think SageTV should put out video demos that show all the features and how to set them up. I think that will give the consumer a good overall idea of the product. The videos should cover things like:

• Overview of SageTV Core features: TV Recordings/Scheduling, Music, Photos, Videos/DVD, Online Services.
• Roles of Server, Clients, and Extenders: SageTV Server, SageTV Client, Placeshifter, MVP Extender, HD Extender.
• Hardware Support and Configurations: OS Support (Windows/Mac/Linux), Tuners (PCI/USB/Network), Tuner Sources (OTA/Cable/Satellite/DVB/etc), Channel Changing (IR Blasters/Serial/Firewire), Remote Controls, etc.
• Interface: Navigation, Walk-throughs, Adjust Settings, etc.
• Customizations: Overview of Themes/Plugins/Add-ons. Show samples of popular ones like Webserver and SageMC.

Even if they download the trial and install it, but without spending hours of configuring and investing in tuners/extenders/etc., they won't see the full potential of the product. Written guides/turotials are good but I think videos are needed to let the consumer visualize exactly what they are getting with SageTV. Imagine how hard it would be to explain to your friends what SageTV is all about without showing it to them; I'm sure it is quite difficult. But if they see your setup in person, they would have a much better idea of what's going on. I think video demos are the next best thing.

[ChePazzo]

To be honest, the linux server has almost been like a plug-n-play for me.

I installed the OS cleanly according to the instructions and once it was setup, everything worked great! I never have any maintenance to do.

Sage could surely market this as a media server that is pre-installed with sagetv and linux, etc.

The only things that sage would need to add would be
- the ability for the software to upgrade itself. Kind of like my PS3 upgrades itself pretty seemlessly. no .tar or .deb files to worry about for the user.
- the ability to browse the stv/stvis/plugins/etc from the software through either a placeshifter or extender and download and install those as well.

Other than those, the thing really just runs. The entire server (at least the relevant parts) can be configured from the SageTV interface.

[nebulink]

The USB-UIRT should be configurable when setting up the tuners. Right now you have to modify yet another .config file.

Tivo and MCE handle IR blaster setup very nicely.

[Djc208]

You basically have two plans of attack here then. Sage sells pre-configured hardware with the software (ala HD100s) that the end user just sets up, or they work on "dumbing down" the install/setup for a less experienced user on their hardware.

While I think Sage already does a decent job of setup, but it's impossible for any manufacturer to make every possible hardware/software combo work and they're going to only have more problems trying to make it easier for the average user to run the software on their home PC.

The only truly Tivo-esque way of doing this would be a hardware/software package like TiVo. But TiVo's having a hard enough time on their own right now, I'm not sure how a second competitor would fare.

The biggest advantage of Sage, it's flexibility would have to be limited for the TiVo crowd to prevent messes with verious add-ons and plug-ins from causing problems. Which would remove a lot of it's benefit over competitors.

[jamesdisco]

Originally Posted by gblinckmann

I'd love to have a pre-built Windows Home Server with Sage on it and pre-configured to pretty much just works when you turn it on.

Home Media Servers

These guys have been doing exectly that for a couple of months now. Admittedly they are for the UK market only but it is being done.

[Fuzzy]

Hardware wise, I'd imagine they might be able to develop an embedded box that could sit below the STX-HD100, and provide a tuner or two, a blaster, and a hard drive (Call it the STS-HD200 or something). Default sage server duties are not CPU intensive, and could be done on a very inexpensive embedded platform. The most intensive default activity is transcoding HD down for the MVP, which is still not that hard, if the source is MPEG2.

The advantage of this system over the TiVo is still the expandability of the system. Want more tuners? Add another of the STS-HD200's and you get the extra tuners, as well as more storage space. Sage Servers already have the ability to work in slave mode so distributed storage/tuning would not be difficult. Just need more storage? Add a USB HDD.

I'm not sure what kind of horsepower is in the STX-HD100, but it may actually have enough to fulfill most the duties by just adding the HDD and the Tuner. If that's the case, then the solution gets even cheaper.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by jamesdisco

Home Media Servers

These guys have been doing exectly that for a couple of months now. Admittedly they are for the UK market only but it is being done.

They should definitely come into this forum and let people know the product is out there. This is the first time I heard of them.

As expected, the price is on the premium side and it's for the UK only. The unit looks good. CPU is questionable with an intel atom 1.6ghz, not sure if its sufficient for transcoding to the placeshifter.

They could go with Linux instead of WHS and trim the price down a bit.

[ChePazzo]

hmmm... My point was that the extenders are already plug-n-play and sage could offer a server out-of-the-box that "just works." They won't have to worry about working with every possible component because they would choose the components that they have tested and are known to work. This would be for server only. Instruct people to:
1. plug server into home network and cable source and power on
2. place extender on every tv you want to SageTV-ize and plug into home network.

That simple. All configuration can be done either through the extender or through a workstation running placeshifter.

If SageTV goes down the "TIVOize" route, they should not make it work just like Tivo because it is not Tivo; it is better than Tivo and much more modular.

Originally Posted by Djc208

You basically have two plans of attack here then. Sage sells pre-configured hardware with the software (ala HD100s) that the end user just sets up, or they work on "dumbing down" the install/setup for a less experienced user on their hardware.

While I think Sage already does a decent job of setup, but it's impossible for any manufacturer to make every possible hardware/software combo work and they're going to only have more problems trying to make it easier for the average user to run the software on their home PC.

The only truly Tivo-esque way of doing this would be a hardware/software package like TiVo. But TiVo's having a hard enough time on their own right now, I'm not sure how a second competitor would fare.

The biggest advantage of Sage, it's flexibility would have to be limited for the TiVo crowd to prevent messes with verious add-ons and plug-ins from causing problems. Which would remove a lot of it's benefit over competitors.

[Brent]

I wonder if SageTV could re-work the HD100 box (or something similar) to have the linux server software on it, put in a few tuners, a decent sized hard drive and live, dual USB. Wouldn't that go a long way towards easier (and possibly cheaper setup than diy - especially if it was all pre-configured to just work when you turned it on?

[mistergq]

Some great suggestions in here. I have another recommendations: an http page that you can control all the settings and set up sage from. Nielm's web server is excellent for controlling the recording information. But it would be great if we can control the settings from there.

[Fuzzy]

I think for the consumer hardware route, the configuration should instead be done all from within the sage interface (which, for the most part, it currently is). You can configure tuners and everything from within the interface, adn from any client, so other than geek factor, I'm not sure an HTTP interface is really necessary for configuration. it IS nice used as is for information on server status and for remote management, but for system configuration, the standard interface works great.