SageTV talk on GreenButton

[Brent]

I've been following (and participating a little) an interesting thread over at the GreenButton Forums titled "Why not SageTV".

Much of the talk is centered around the things that keep VMC and MCE folks from switching such as:

• "ugly" UI
• difficult to set up
• person already owns a VMC extender & doesn't want it to go to waste
• person already owns a CableCard PC & doesn't want it to go to waste
• doesn't have a particular feature (most of these are untrue so I try to point out any myths).

There was some bickering back and forth in there too which I'm not so interested in, but I did think the SageTV talk was interesting and thought my fellow SageTV forum folks might be interested in the subject as well.

[bialio]

Hey Brent - what do you use to create your screen-cast?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by bialio

Hey Brent - what do you use to create your screen-cast?

Camtasia Studio 5. I have it for work purposes and am in the process of "learning it". I have a ways to go on making a more "professional" screen-cast, but I'm getting there.

[stanger89]

Those sound like about the issues I'd expect. The UI thing is really a taste issue though. VMC is definitely more flashy, though I haven't played with it enough to really know if it's that much better "in use".

The rest, there's really nothing you can do, Sage can't really do anything about people's investments in other solutions.

And as for setup, well, that's basically a side effect of Sage being more extensibile, there's more stuff it can do, so there's more to setup, simple as that.

[Brent]

I agree that the UI thing is a taste issue. I've seen screen-casts of it & vistaMC's UI is quite nice looking and functional.

I wish SageTV would spruce up the default STV a bit so the first impression would be a little better. But then again that would probably tick off several who like and use the default STV. Thats why its so nice to have choices all within SageTV - it's just difficult to get the message through to those who don't know that much about SageTV other than what they read or hear.

[pjpjpjpj]

I would not be surprised if those who preferred other UI looks - SageMC for example - were a more technophilish demographic... those who are using an HTPC as their main hub of their life, and have been watching TV on their PC for years. They are most likely on the young end of the Sage "age spectrum" (or if not, they have some technical background or programming job or such). Those people are likely much more accustomed to more "tech-ish" UIs, or even other PC MCs, as well as owning all the latest tech gadgets and therefore being accustomed to the look of iPhone/iPod -type stuff.

Just my guess.

I, for one, have no problem with the default STV. And if you are coming to Sage from Tivo (like me ), it's just fine, dare I say "similar".

It always amazes me about people's concern about the UI. As was said above, it's just "tastes".

Sage should just come with about 8 or 10 stock STVs to choose from. Just like all of the standard media player "skins". But just because it doesn't, shouldn't be a reason that people are avoiding it.

[Polypro]

Why I hate VMC's UI:

Sound - Who wants to hear a sound for every button press? UGHHH.

Horizontal Nav - Yeah, faded out options that dissappear as you scroll is exactly what I want <====sarcasm

P

[Khristopher]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

I, for one, have no problem with the default STV. And if you are coming to Sage from Tivo (like me ), it's just fine, dare I say "similar".

It always amazes me about people's concern about the UI. As was said above, it's just "tastes".

I quite like the default STV as well. It's functional, which is more important to me than "flashy". Yes I think it could use a refresh, however it shouldn't be at the expense of functionality.

[Ryokurin]

Originally Posted by Polypro

Why I hate VMC's UI:

Sound - Who wants to hear a sound for every button press? UGHHH.

Horizontal Nav - Yeah, faded out options that dissappear as you scroll is exactly what I want <====sarcasm

P

I didn't mind that, but it definitely is slower than MCE2005, and had weird little quirks like reporting it had zero shows until you exited and came back into the menu again and while its not their fault, I thought it was kind of difficult to add specific rss feeds to tvtonic. (but I freely admit, I don't like Sage's method either) I rather just have a spot to type in the rss feed address, and it figures out the rest, kind of like mediamonkey.

[xred]

Originally Posted by Brent

Much of the talk is centered around the things that keep VMC and MCE folks from switching such as:[LIST][*]"ugly" UI

/ rant mode: ON

This has literally been coming up for *years* here in the forums. While day to day Sage users in this forums are just about split on whether Sage is ugly or not, I don't believe most HTPC or "general public" users out there would reflect anywhere near a 50 / 50 split on the subject. The success of the iPod and Apple in general is a testament to the power of a "shiny" candy coating on any product.

In my opinion (and apparently many MCE users looking for a new option judging by TGB forums....) Sage's UI is BADLY in need of a redesign. The additions to UI over time have continued to add great functionality but have made the flow and sex appeal of the UI even worse. Different navigation schemes are used in different places and its continued to become less eye candy and more like an appliance console then a slick "10 foot" UI. Its also one of the most reading intensive UI's around as it doesn't shoot you visual clues as to where to go or what does what.

I have actually done SageTV installs for friends and family members who have REFUSED to use the app because its "ugly". Its especially hard to get users of MCE or XBMC to give up their flashy, swishy UI's to look more than skin deep at Sage (which is where all the real beauty lies).

In the end I don't think the UI redesign is about making Sage better for us existing users. Most of us know enough to mod or update Sage to suit our needs. The real goal of the UI redesign should be to entice a whole new set of Sage users to buy the app, expand the user base and guarantee that Sage is profitable and around for the long term.

My .02

/ rant mode OFF

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by xred

...The success of the iPod and Apple in general is a testament to the power of a "shiny" candy coating on any product....

Sadly, very true. Kinda says something about our "A.D.D." society, doesn't it? "Oooh! Shiny!" It just about kills me when products expend all of their "uniqueness" factors, and resort to just "New this year! Colors!".... and people jump all over it! Like the new HDTVs from Samsung, "Touch of Color".... Hmmm... we ran out of technological ideas that we can put in our TVs to make them stand out from the competition, what can we do now? I know! Colored edges on the frame!

Originally Posted by xred

...The additions to UI over time have continued to add great functionality but have made the flow and sex appeal of the UI even worse....

...I have actually done SageTV installs for friends and family members who have REFUSED to use the app because its "ugly"....

Just curious - and purely curious for my own sake, not trying to make any points or get anyone riled up - what age were those people who refused to use it?

My guess is that they are under 30? Perhaps under 25?

Again, just curious.

As I said above, anyone who is coming from Tivo - and who has not spent the last 5-10 years wrapped up in iPods, iPhones, Media Center PCs, and other "technophile gear" - probably has no problem with Sage's UI. Or, at worst, "really doesn't care how it looks as long as it is simple to navigate and it works".

Disclaimer: As you might have guessed, I fall in the latter category. I even turned off the graphics on the Dynamic Custom Menus plug-in because I hate having pictures on the screen; I just want labels/names. Yes, I know I am in the LARGE minority.

[tmiranda]

I completely agree with xred. I personally like the Sage interface but if Sage wants to be more accepted by the general public they need an eye-candy interface. Greater acceptance = more users = better product (and probably a lot more money for Narflex and friends.)

I often have asked myself why Sage has not done this already? IMHO the following are most likely:

1. They do not think the interface needs to be redesigned.
2. They think it should be redesigned but don't know what it should look like.
3. They think it should be redesigned but do not have the money to develop and support it.
4. They are arguing amongst themselves about the issue.
5. They are working on it as we speak.

Let's hope it is option 5 and not option 1.

I have long been an advocate of having multiple interfaces to choose from during installation. Offer "classic" (i.e. the current STV), standard (eye-candy), and "simple" (a stripped down interface for beginners.)

[QueOnda]

My mother-in-law got A&T universe. Hard to explain but it has transitions and both PIP and overlay (where you see the channel you watching on the corner, while the guide is up you also see a moving translucent image behind the guide) at the same time. It was smooth and thought it looked nice. I saw this about 2 months ago and only once so my memory may not be correct.

I always thought, sage has very nice functionality, and could easily do that, including with the computers the way they are today.

[xred]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Just curious - and purely curious for my own sake, not trying to make any points or get anyone riled up - what age were those people who refused to use it?

My guess is that they are under 30? Perhaps under 25?

Actually no. One was my older brother (mid 40's) who was using MCE 2005. The machine had all sorts of problems so I convinced him to try a SageTV. It worked for him but coming from the MCE UI both he and his wife thought the Sage looked "not as advanced" as MCE and was much harder to use. This is of course hialrious to anyone who understands the functionality of the two apps as Sage _completely_ smokes MCE in terms of functionality, but the non technical users "perception" that MCE looks slicker is very real.

The other was a friend of mine who was the same age as me (mid 30's) using XBMC but wanted a way to get TV out of it too. I again suggested SageTV but between losing the slick XBMC UI and media playback features (built in support for playing files directly from ISO / BIN CUE or even from from within the RAR files was a big deal for him). He's worked in multimedia software for years like me and he fullly understands the power and extensibility of Sage, but the lack of "bling" in the UI just turns him off to the point where form does not overcome function.

I have had success in getting some of my friends to use Sage, mostly due to the great DVB plugin support, but even in those cases it has been despite the UI and never because of it.

[Brent]

I know this is a somewhat controversial subject, but thought I'd add my opinion fwiw. And I'm not under 30 either

I love SageTV, but must say that I would never have converted over to SageTV without the excellent SageMC STV. Here's why:

1. While I know many SageTV users like the default STV, I think it is a bit to ugly - and an overly technical UI. Not sure how to properly explain it but it just wouldn't work for me. When testing I sometimes switch to the default STV and my wife yells at me saying she hates it (and who am I to disagree with that
2. SageMC has many of the plugins built in. Easier setup = faster acceptance by me
3. SageMC has things in it I had to have - #1 on that list was integration of DVDs and videos and the organization of those movies by genre.

I think it would be a good move to improve the look of the default UI. First impressions are often the only thing a person trialling the software sees. I think Media Portal, Meedio and VMC have the best look. SageMC is very nice and I like the looks of it - especially with all of the customization I can do, but there's always room for improvement.

[pjpjpjpj]

Again, I'm just curious...

What do you guys (who think default STV is ugly) think of Tivo?

Because to me, the Tivo interface - at least the v.1 that I owned for 5 years - is nearly identical to Sage. Main menu is a list on an "ethereal" blue background, each menu item takes you to a similar-looking submenu, etc.... In fact, with a few minor moves using Dynamic Custom Menus, it practically is the same (though it obviously has way more choices within menus, from online stuff to music and pictures to my dvd collection to weather to.....).

Do you think many people avoid Tivo because they think it's "ugly"?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Again, I'm just curious...

What do you guys (who think default STV is ugly) think of Tivo?.........
Do you think many people avoid Tivo because they think it's "ugly"?

well, I've never used TIVO. From what I've seen though, I'm not all that impressed with its looks. It's a matter of opinion though & I totally understand that not everyone agrees on this subject.

I should throw in that I don't think SageTV really competes with the average TIVO user though because of the complexity of HTPC's in general - it's really more of an enthusiast crowd imho.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by Brent

I should throw in that I don't think SageTV really competes with the average TIVO user though because of the complexity of HTPC's in general - it's really more of an enthusiast crowd imho.

In general, you are absolutely right.

That's why I'm in the small, looked-down-upon minority around here (being NOT a technophile-gadgetfreak-computer-guru).

[stanger89]

Hey, we could still have this:





FWIW, while I greatly admire SageMC, and the work everyone has done on it, I actually find it harder to use than the stock UI

[mikehaney]

Let's see, we went from UltimateTV to DirecTivo to DirecTV DVR (gag) to HTPCs for our DVR functions, so Sage isn't too much of a stretch as far as the UI goes. Now compared to MCE, which we used to run for media only, not TV, it looks pretty plain, but compared to the settop box DVRs we've always had, it's about the same, probably even nicer.

But what really counts is the functionality and reliability. We had been running Media Portal for the last month or two, and when I told the family we were switching to Sage, I got a lot of groans and complaining. I can understand why - I don't think anyone would argue that Sage has a slicker UI than Media Portal (at least with the default STV). But I was getting tired of the regular crashes, getting calls at work about the TV not working, etc. Heck, once I even had to walk my wife through RDPing into the server and restarting the TV service - over the phone! Not pretty.

But since we switched, no complaints at all. And no crashes either. Yeah, my wife groaned a bit about how much this is all going to cost, but she's even been quiet about that for the last few days.