Giggling to myself....

[ghostlobster]

OK, so I'm not the most mature person on the planet, a fact that Mrs. Lobster reminds me of at least 3 times per day. I just experienced another example of my undying adolescence when I went over to The Green Button today and saw the number of postings related to finding some way to hack/alter/beg/coerce/or otherwise get the HD-PVR to work in VMC. I sat here and giggled. Up until 6 months ago, I would have been one of them, looking for some work-around. However, thanks to Brent's help, I count myself among the fortunate who are able to actually watch ESPNHD in HD without suffering through CableCARD restrictions.
The thing I don't get, though, is why? If digital cable or satellite support is that important to people, as it was to me, why are they unwilling to switch front ends in order to get the functionality they want? It's certainly not ignorance, as nearly everyone on that forum has heard of the HD-PVR and they know that Sage and BeyondTV support it. Why do they remain stuck with a front end that provides about 75% of their required functionality? I know the interface issue will certainly come up. However, Sage's interface with SageMC is not all that bad. After months of tweaking and whining I've finally gotten it to the point where I actually like it!

That aside, say you have a car that performs exceptionally, handles like a dream, tops out at over 150MPH, comfortably seats your entire family, does not require anything but routine maintrenence, but, unfortunately, it is encased in the body of a '79 Ford Pinto. Wouldn't you prefer this car over a car that only gets you 3/4 of the way to your destination, only carries 3 of your 4 family members, has a maximum speed of 45MPH, however, is encased in a Ferrari body?
Am I missing something?

[Apap]

I checked out VMC this year when I got a laptop with Vista home premium on it. Yeah the GUI was slick and all but I really didnt like navigating in it. I handed the laptop to my wife and asked her if she liked it better than what we had on our TV(Sagetv stock UI). She absolutely hated it and forbade me from even trying to switch.

I would choose function over form any day.
Apap

[Brent]

Originally Posted by ghostlobster

...when I went over to The Green Button today and saw the number of postings related to finding some way to hack/alter/beg/coerce/or otherwise get the HD-PVR to work in VMC.

I saw that thread - there's several more like it and it just amazes me how so many people fight switching to software that actually suits their needs/requirements and instead would subject themselves to finding "workarounds" or hacks etc that don't exist.

However, thanks to Brent's help, I count myself among the fortunate who are able to actually watch ESPNHD in HD without suffering through CableCARD restrictions.

Glad to help I'd push harder for HD-PVR acceptance, but its still pretty "young" so-to-speak. I'm working on a more detailed review of the HD-PVR now that the new drivers are out and working for me (not for everyone I hear).

I know the interface issue will certainly come up. However, Sage's interface with SageMC is not all that bad. After months of tweaking and whining I've finally gotten it to the point where I actually like it!

I'm interested in the things you've done to make it the way you like it. I know you use SageMC, but what else? Also, regarding the UI, is there anything you wish your setup had that you miss from VMC? Always looking for ideas to push for to improve the SageTV & SageMC UI to make it better without taking away the flexibility.

[cncb]

I laugh every time I revisit the Snapstream forums because the same people are still saying "all" they have to do is add Linux support, extenders, and non-PVR (music, etc.) functionality to Beyond TV and they would be "unbeatable" . I keep telling them that they are describing SageTV in its current form but I guess they want to just keep hoping and waiting for a few more years...

[ghostlobster]

Originally Posted by Brent

I saw that thread -

It was not just the thread we both responded to over there. There are a whole bunch of them, and they seem to pop up in waves. It'll go about a week or so with nothing posted about it, and then, wham...15 different threads pop up regarding it. It's kinda like playing Whack-a-Mole! But, I digress...

Originally Posted by Brent

Glad to help I'd push harder for HD-PVR acceptance, but its still pretty "young" so-to-speak. I'm working on a more detailed review of the HD-PVR now that the new drivers are out and working for me (not for everyone I hear).

The drivers still have the 1. labels on them, so yeah...definitely technological infancy! Also, the DD5.1 capable drivers are beta...which by definition=broken. Anyone expecting flawless performance out of a beta driver is certainly in for a rude awakening. My stance on that is "Ok, I'll slap them in place, report any anomolies I see then make the decision as to whether or not I'll keep them in place or fall back to stable ones"...but, that's just me.

Originally Posted by Brent

I'm interested in the things you've done to make it the way you like it. I know you use SageMC, but what else? Also, regarding the UI, is there anything you wish your setup had that you miss from VMC? Always looking for ideas to push for to improve the SageTV & SageMC UI to make it better without taking away the flexibility.

Actually, all I really did was quit whining and rolled up my sleeves and went to work on customizing. Ensuring all my ripped DVDs retrieved the proper metadata, catagorized them correctly, changed the SageMC UI to use the horizontal scrolling and went through my ripped CDs and organized them a little better. All in all, it was just a little bit of work each night for a short time, but it was well worth it.
Oh, and moving to a 100% client/server architecture was a key move! Much more stable!

[Brent]

Originally Posted by cncb

I laugh every time I revisit the Snapstream forums because the same people are still saying "all" they have to do is add Linux support, extenders, and non-PVR (music, etc.) functionality to Beyond TV and they would be "unbeatable" . I keep telling them that they are describing SageTV in its current form but I guess they want to just keep hoping and waiting for a few more years...

Craig,
I think that has to do with a few things:
First, you like what you are familiar with - especially with something like your TV "device". If the family is happy using it then you're happier. Changing something like that requires you to deal with the complaints that "it doesn't do this the way I'm used to" or worse because you're still trying to figure things out (sage takes longer to do this by the way) then you have to hear the "this doesn't work as well" stuff from the family.

Second, when they do try SageTV the first experience they might have is not always as good as what they have right now. That's just because they haven't gotten to know the things that need to be set up (customize the UI and skin, add comskip, add compression etc) so they think it isn't as good.

Lastly, they've already invested money and time into BTV and don't want to switch because they wouldn't have done that if it wasn't the best thing out there.

Why do I say this? I was once one of those people. I totally understand where they are coming from. I think snapstream has a few things that are advantages that they could have used to their advantage against the competition but didn't:

• Built in commercial detection
• Built in compression
• Built in web server/admin/guide
• Easier setup (obvioulsy this has a lot to do with the more simple UI and design, but also has to do with the attention to "easy setup" focused on by the development)

Still, all of those things can be had here at SageTV and you can add so many more features, the extenders, more peers/forum members for help, faster development and a focus only on the core product that I care about.

But I digress....

[wayner]

I actually started that thread back in January on TGB when the HD-PVR was announced. You will notice that in one of the first posts I say that if MS doesn't support the HD-PVR then I am leaving. Chris Lanier, one of the moderators of TGB, said "Get ready to leave then, I highly doubt Microsoft will add support for this." Which is why I am now here in the happy world of Sage. (But I still do use MCE for now)

But there can be a big switcing cost and not just the UI. I have five V1 MCE extenders as you can buy refurbed units on eBay for about $70. So pretty much every TV in my house has an extender, two of them using wireless. Sure I can buy Sage extenders but to replace what I have would cost $1000 plus I have to either run CAT-6 to a few more rooms or try to get wireless working with bridges, 802.11n service, etc.

You'll also notice in one of the last posts I mention why Sage is superior to MCE/VMC!

[Brent]

Originally Posted by wayner

Chris Lanier, one of the moderators of TGB, said "Get ready to leave then, I highly doubt Microsoft will add support for this." Which is why I am now here in the happy world of Sage. (But I still do use MCE for now)

I really respect Chris. I think he's pretty frustrated with MS right now and wonder if he'll ever switch.... That would be a major blow to MS wouldn't it?

[wayner]

I am happier that Babgvant has switched as he has written several useful apps. Now we just need Binnerkup (I think that's his name) who wrote MyMovies to switch, or at least port MyMovies for Sage.

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by wayner

...snip...
But there can be a big switcing cost and not just the UI. I have five V1 MCE extenders as you can buy refurbed units on eBay for about $70. ...snip...

Aren't those V1 extenders standard def? Why not use MVPs? Cheaper than the HD100 and there are even wireless versions.

You could sell all your extenders and buy MVPs and only be out $30/room.

[wayner]

Yes - V1 extenders are SD only.

That is an idea - as long as I can get around $50-$75 for them. The other thing I may use in some rooms is SageClient since I already have PCs in some of those rooms.

[ghostlobster]

Originally Posted by wayner

Yes - V1 extenders are SD only.

That is an idea - as long as I can get around $50-$75 for them. The other thing I may use in some rooms is SageClient since I already have PCs in some of those rooms.

For one of our SD TVs I'm seriously considering an MVP. I've seen them on Ebay for the $50-$70 range.

Regarding the clients, man, I can not recommend that strongly enough. The clients just plain WORK! In our bedroom I tossed together a bunch of components I had kicking around and ended up with a pretty nice rig. AMD 4000+ x2 processor, ATI HD2600 Pro vid card ($50) and 1GB of RAM. It was OK, until I found an nMedia PC HTPC 180 for $50 on clearance at a local computer store. Then it became SWEET! That little case is good looking, quiet and very functional. I tore apart an MCE IR receiver and planted it in that case and the whole setup is working perfectly as a client, running over 802.11, delivering HD perfectly! My main rig is hard wired and has a little more muscle behind it... 2GB, 4600+ X2, HD2600XT. That guy is driving the family room TV and pretty much all our digital entertainment. My SageTV server is running XP (for now) and is just a single processor 3000+, crappy integrated video, 1GB of RAM. However, all it has to do is serve files, tune TV and just be there. All my picture, music and ripped DVDs live on on my WHS rig...hmmm, on second though, maybe Mrs. Lobster is right....we have way too many things that "plug in" around this house!

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Brent

Lastly, they've already invested money and time into BTV and don't want to switch because they wouldn't have done that if it wasn't the best thing out there.

Yes, you know that I went through all of this too. But after a couple of years of broken promises you have to come to terms with the fact that it is not going to happen. It is funny in a sad way when I see the same people saying the exact same things they were saying 2 years ago...

[mistergq]

Craig and Brent:

I was thinking the same thing that Craig posted when I started reading this thread. I agree with both of you. It took me a year to get the guts to switch from BTV to STV. I wish I switched now early.

Its hard to switch because of brand loyalty. You become accustomed to what you have. I was accustomed to the BTV, web admin, and snapstream.net. But I wanted more. I wanted integration. And that is why I switched.

Now I don't want to be one of those people that say, mine is better than yours because that is what these conversations turn into. But I used both and am very happy with STV. And despite what has been posted over on snapstream forums, if BTV suddenly put a priority to add music, photos, dvd, etc., and an extender, I would still stay with STV.

STV has the customizations that a program needs to remain advancing. STV had the extender first and had HD PVR working well before BTV did. At this point, there is no way I could switch back.

[mickp]

Originally Posted by Brent

• Easier setup (obvioulsy this has a lot to do with the more simple UI and design, but also has to do with the attention to "easy setup" focused on by the development)

I keep seeing this one bandied about but I don't recall BTV being easier to setup.

• I had problems with getting btv to work correctly with my USB-UIRT for blasting to stb
• I had to configure girder to support the uirt + remote (which sage supports natively)
• BTV didn't correctly support one of my tuners (PAL)
• BTV absolutely required me to use the NVidia decoder to get a smooth picture
• The NVid decoder had to be hacked into a file somewhere
• I had to go to a separate web interface to configure paths etc

What in particular are the things that make btv easier to setup? Because SS said so?

Mick.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Brent

Easier setup (obvioulsy this has a lot to do with the more simple UI and design, but also has to do with the attention to "easy setup" focused on by the development)

Originally Posted by mickp

I keep seeing this one bandied about but I don't recall BTV being easier to setup.

• I had problems with getting btv to work correctly with my USB-UIRT for blasting to stb
• I had to configure girder to support the uirt + remote (which sage supports natively)
• BTV didn't correctly support one of my tuners (PAL)
• BTV absolutely required me to use the NVidia decoder to get a smooth picture
• The NVid decoder had to be hacked into a file somewhere
• I had to go to a separate web interface to configure paths etc

What in particular are the things that make btv easier to setup? Because SS said so?

Mick.

Mick,
I say that because I really believe BTV is easier to set up - not because SS says so. You're right that USBUIRT support is built in which is a plus for SageTV. I'll also add that the SageTV extender adds to the ease of setup for SageTV - something BTV doesn't have. Beyond that though here are the reasons (stated again) I think BTV is easier to set up:

• Built in commercial detection
• Built in compression
• Built in web server/admin/guide
• No configuration or setup needed
• More simple and easy to learn UI
• No plugins to install
• No services to worry about

My point is yes, I think BTV is easier to set up. However, part of the reason for that is that there isn't any customization, plugins etc that can be done to BTV. That is an advantage in a way for those who don't want to mess with the other stuff. But for most of us and the majority of the target HTPC market its also a major dissadvantage.

Obviously peoples setup experiences vary and opinions on the easier setup can differ, but mine was and is that BTV's setup is easier, but that ease of setup isn't worth giving up the many things you can do with SageTV.

[SWKerr]

I am with Brent on this. I made the switch from BeyondTV not that long ago and it was only because of the combined interface for TV, Music and DVDs. With Girder I could actually switch back and forth from BeyondTV to Beyond Media fairly easily but the experience was not the same and the Music part just stinks. I was actually spoiled by my experience with XBMC with a modified XBOX that I still think is the best interface I have ever used. The problem is that XBMC does not do HD and does not do TV.

There are definitely a few things in BeyondTV that are better than Sage. One of them is the out of the box configuration is just easier. They include more features that just work straight out of the box than what you get with Sage. The real reason that Sage is a better is because of the openness of the system and the support of the user community. I probably would not have made the switch without SageMC. (SageMC is also a collection of other plugins so I have to give credit to them as well) I really dislike the standard GUI and layout but with SageMC you can set it up just about any way you like. Without SageMC it would be very time consuming to setup a lot of the functionality that just comes with BeyondTV. Even with SageMC setting up the bells and whistles is still beyond the skills of your average user. Sage is not that difficult to setup and use if you are happy with the standard package but the real power comes with all the user created goodies.

SageTV’s major advantage over BeyondTV/Beyond Media out of the box is really just the online content and the combined user interface. That could easily be offset by the missing commercial skip and compression options. Even the online piece does not currently support the most desirable online content such as Hulu and NetFlix. (Although NetFilx is support within SageMC and another great plug-in.)

The other advantage for SageTV is the Extender. I don’t have one since I already have several working HTPCs but it is definitely a more cost effect solution for anyone that does not already have a setup and does not care about surfing the web from the couch. I do have to point out that if you are actually satisfied with MCE\VMC then you can get and Xbox360 now for just $200 and have the same basic functionality. (Of course if Windows Media Center did not suck then none of use would be using Sage or BeyondTV.)

As I have been using SageTV for awhile there are a few things that I really miss about BeyondTV:
1. The Web Admin tool in BeyondTV is great. You can do a lot of things with it and the Sage equivalent is not even close in ease of use and functionality.
2. The ability to pick the tuner to associate with a particular recording. Fact is I never really know what tuner will be used to record what. I have an HD-PVR with DirecTV HD, ATSC OTA with occasional multi-path problems and a second DirecTV HD receiver hooked up to a legacy analog card via sVHS. I would like to micro manage what device to used based on my personal preference for the show. (Ex. I like the Daily Show but it is not and does not need to be in HD. If it has something in the same time slot I may rather have it recorded in analog.) I have assigned tuner priorities to everything and it generally records as desired but it is very hard to figure out what is going to record on what device.
3. Library Management. The whole wiz.bin thing makes it difficult to move stuff around or make major changes to your system. It also seems to be and accident waiting to happen. The way that BeyondTV does this is just better. (Now they don’t have a nice plug-in that automatically downloads descriptions and icons to your system but I expect that is in spite of the wiz.bin not because of it.)

Really both BeyondTV and SageTV are great tools but Sage is much more of a hacker’s tool and you can certainly get more from it if you are willing to put in the effort. BeyondTV is probably a better selection for people with a limited computer skills.

Now VMC just sucks but I would love for someone to list its advantages over Sage. I am sure there are some I just don’t know what they are.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

I do have to point out that if you are actually satisfied with MCE\VMC then you can get and Xbox360 now for just $200 and have the same basic functionality. (Of course if Windows Media Center did not suck then none of use would be using Sage or BeyondTV.)

Except for the fact that you can't hear the TV over the screaming noise of the Xbox360 fan. MCE extenders have been on sale for $100 recently at Amazon and elsewhere which makes one think that they are being discontinued or revamped - but they are a better option than the Xbox if your main goal is to watch media content rather than game.

I really don't understand why MS would design the Xbox in such a way that it required a screaming fan - I have an Elite which is supposed to be the quietest Xbox and it is still way too loud. Why not make the Xbox a bit bigger that allows a larger diameter fan and more space for air movement.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

There are definitely a few things in BeyondTV that are better than Sage. One of them is the out of the box configuration is just easier. They include more features that just work straight out of the box than what you get with Sage.

I agree that it is nice that BTV has compression & commercial skipping built-in to the interface. But I think we have to concede here that it only takes a few minutes (30 max) to add these things. It makes the setup more difficult, but not a huge deal. Then add the fact that SageTV has way more capability and features overall (I know you pointed this out as well) built in and that argument is lost (even for me) except for the most computer-unsavvy users out there.

As I have been using SageTV for awhile there are a few things that I really miss about BeyondTV:
1. The Web Admin tool in BeyondTV is great. You can do a lot of things with it and the Sage equivalent is not even close in ease of use and functionality.

I dissagree with this one entirely. The only thing Nielm's Sage Web Admin doesn't do that BTV's does is integrate settings into the web interface. And many SS users have asked to have those settings integrated into the main BTV UI like SageTV already has. I think it would be nice to have this in SageTV's web interface, but its not a big deal for me.

And you can do way more with SageTV's web interface then you can with BTV's. I won't go into all of those things here, but suffice to say - SageTV's web interface is a little geekier, but it is definitely better and lets you do more.

2. The ability to pick the tuner to associate with a particular recording. Fact is I never really know what tuner will be used to record what.

You can do this with SageTV. Just go into advanced recording settings and set your particular show up for a specific channel (in this case the SD channel). You can also see which tuners will be recording what within the built-in EPG guide as well as with the SageTV Web Interface.

3. Library Management. The whole wiz.bin thing makes it difficult to move stuff around or make major changes to your system. It also seems to be and accident waiting to happen. The way that BeyondTV does this is just better. (Now they don’t have a nice plug-in that automatically downloads descriptions and icons to your system but I expect that is in spite of the wiz.bin not because of it.)

I agree that the way the wiz.bin works sucks in comparison to the way BTV handles that data. I've learned to deal with it and rarely ever notice anymore. Still - I agree it's a disadvantage for SageTV.

BeyondTV is probably a better selection for people with a limited computer skills.

I agree with that to an extent. I think this is changing though. I worry that BTV is on the decline. There seem to be more spammers on the forums these days than any powerusers. I typically see two or three hard-core (and also helpful) BTV users on their forums on good days. I also am seeing a big slowdown in the beta cycles which include fewer new features and slower rollouts of those features. QAM and HD-PVR support come to mind. I hope to see them continue a balanced focus on the consumer product versus their entrprise product - they say there is, but time will tell.

I'm probably a contrarion regarding this topic at the SageTV forums, but I want to see lots of competition in the HTPC software niche. It's mostly good for all of us when there are healthy competitors to keep everyone on their toes

[SWKerr]

2. The ability to pick the tuner to associate with a particular recording. Fact is I never really know what tuner will be used to record what. You can do this with SageTV. Just go into advanced recording settings and set your particular show up for a specific channel (in this case the SD channel). You can also see which tuners will be recording what within the built-in EPG guide as well as with the SageTV Web Interface.

I think I see where you are going with this:Is this what you meant?

I know I can pick the particular channel but in my case I have two DirecTV recievers and they share the same channel listing. I do actully record a lot of OTA stuff that way since they have thier own channel numbers but to be able to do the same thing on DirecTV I am guessing I would need to create a new guide for each reciever. (I guess it is possible) I don't think I would really want to do that since everything would be in there twice. (Not sure how the channel numbers would look.)