HDhomerun, QAM, VLC, Media Player, PowerDVD = problems

[KryptoNyte]

About a week ago, I finally applied one of the latest updates to my HDhomerun device. Little did I know what kind of a ride I was in for. To make a long story short, I had to reinstall all new Sage software to the latest version, and re-enable the tuners and re-map all channels. Everything seemed to go quite well actually, just took some time.

A little background, I have Sage installed on one machine at my home. I only use Sage to record TV to the hard disk, but never use that machine to watch them or for anything else, the programs are all watched on various hardware around the house.

The problem that I am now seeing is this. These are new problems that just began with the latest software updates.

1) HDhomerun digital QAM recordings now have an extraordinary video stutter, about every 6 to 18 seconds (Media Player and PowerDVD only). A couple of recordings even bring both of these programs to their knees (dead stop) at times.

2) Playing these same files with VLC yields absolutely perfectly smooth video, but completely absent of any audio. VLC indicates that all sound buffer packets are lost (when watching the recorded file across the network, or locally).

I've spent about 8 hours or so researching and I have absolutely no solutions. The only thing that I can tell you is that all of my desktop machines are dual core, and run a high power nVidia video card, no changes since everything had been working fine.

My 3 year old laptop, running old cruddy ATI on-board video with a single core Turion, runs all things crystal clear, except that VLC still yields no sound with these problem files.

Is it true that Sage is truly doing nothing more than scheduling, and moving packets coming in from Time Warner straight to the hard disk with no processing whatsoever?

Any ideas? Anything?

[benjatelcom]

As for the stuttering video, you should temporarily defeat any firewall software running on your box, ZA causes stuttering...

Not sure what to tell you regarding audio...

[curtvm]

Playing these same files with VLC yields absolutely perfectly smooth video, but completely absent of any audio

I have had trouble lately with VLC which I use for laptop viewing (both latest .9 version or earlier .8 version), and had the same problem. I think on one recording I had to select another audio track (only one recording that happened- so is not normal). But I found something that seems to get the audio going for some reason- use the advanced open file option, then show more options, then change the caching from 300ms to something like 1000ms. That has worked on at least several recordings when I couldn't get audio in VLC.

[KryptoNyte]

Well, here's the current config:

One machine in the living room. It runs SageTV service and records television programs from the HDhomerun to the computers striped raid array. About 4 other computers around the house access this one machine's shared directory with all the recorded TV programs in mpeg format. At this point, I now see that not one machine (no changes on these machines over the past few months) can properly play these recorded files using PowerDVD (vid/audio problems), Win Media Player (vid/audio problems), or VLC (audio problems). Upgraded to new HDHR software and latest Sage about 30 days ago. Had zero problems with the older Sage/HDHR software, new software = problems.

So here's what I've done so far.

1) Upgraded my entire home network to gigabit, new router, new switch, all new Cat6 ethernet cable. Tests are solid, gigabit is a good thing.
2) Checked the Sage computer ethernet device, tested, no problems.
3) Reinstalled all the HDhomerun software. Then reinstalled all the Sage software.
4) Checked the HDHR unit, seems as though there isn't a problem with the power adapter as some folks have experienced. I also closely monitored the connection quality, and not one meter is dropping below 93% on either tuner.
5) Applied the fix to only tune and pull across one stream per channel on the HDHR device to minimize network traffic.
6) In complete frustration, I've installed the SageTV trial on a high performance machine in my bedroom. I experience exactly the same problems with these HD recordings.

Now, here's the strange part. Using the HDHomerun setup software, I can watch the live streaming feeds directly from the HDHR using VLC (Sage isn't involved), and this works perfectly on any machine, no problems at all, just smooth. So, contrary to my prior understanding that Sage Service is simply there to move packets from the HDHR to the hard disk, there is apparently some work that Sage is doing (although it can't be much, the CPU never sees even 5%), and maybe it's screwing up the video and audio in the mpeg files somehow? And now I see that I get the same bad results on two different machines running two different operating systems.

I tried bumping up the audio caching as Curt had mentioned and finally got sound out of VLC on a couple of the problem files, but I'll be darned if I can figure out how to open a file like this across the network in the VLC "advanced open file" dialog. Technically, the problem that wasn't there a month ago, is now so prevalent that I can't make this work anymore, the files aren't even playable in PowerDVD and media player.

At this point, I believe I've far exceeded my troubleshooting ability, and with how much cash and time I've spent by now, I could have easily rented 3 or 4 HD DVR boxes from Time Warner for a few years and said to hell with all this. I'm about there guys, I don't know what to do anymore.

[Opus4]

What SageTV version did you upgrade from? When you tried reinstalling, did you also try removing sage.properties and reconfiguring everything?

Did you exactly follow the instructions I posted for the HDHR? If not, remove the HDHR tuners from SageTV and reconfigure them.
HDHR setup for Windows

You could also contact SageTV support to see what they suggest.

- Andy

[curtvm]

but I'll be darned if I can figure out how to open a file like this across the network in the VLC "advanced open file" dialog.

I changed a line in my vlcrc file so I always get 1000ms caching (file-caching=1000). You could also map a network drive so it shows up in the advanced open (seems to be design flaw in new interface).

5) Applied the fix to only tune and pull across one stream per channel on the HDHR device to minimize network traffic.

If anyone can point to that 'fix', I would appreciate that (I can't seem to find it in my searches here).

I have seen the audio 'problem' only for a few weeks now (only when playing on laptop with vlc- and the caching 'fix' always works), and nothing has changed with my setup (I use hd100 for tv playback, which does not have a problem). Maybe the networks are changing something in the streams which effects playback for different software in different ways. I should also mention that my qam mpeg2 recordings now seem to have major video stutter when playing back on some codecs (arcsoft and nvidia did, I don't think WinDVD(hp) did). I now use vlc with cache increased to 1000ms for all mpeg2 playback, and arcsoft+windows media player for my h264 recordings (r5000hd)- when playing recordings on the laptop.

My STX-HD100 never has a problem, and is the only reason I use SageTV.

[KryptoNyte]

Okay, we're in hardware support.

Andy, I believe that I was upgrading from one of the first releases of version 6. When I uninstalled the old Sage, and then the new Sage for the reinstall, I also deleted all affiliated Sage directories completely. I have followed the HDHR latest installs and instructions on both machines, to a "t" (I followed the instruction at the HDHR website for SageTV application).

Curt, I'll see if I can find and set that audio cache permanently. I had considered the idea that the media stream had changed, which is very possible. However, the fact that I can play any HDHR media stream with VLC (in the complete absence of Sage) with zero problems on any computer in my home, one conclusion is that Sage is the only common factor in the failure to play these streamed/recorded video files. I've tried to crop one of these mpegs down to just a few megabytes to post a part of a file here, but I have yet to find a piece of software that recognizes the HD mpeg that's coming down from Time Warner. VLC claims the video type is "mpegv", and the audio is "a52" which appears to just be AC3.

I did attempt to play these files using the Sage player, which I pretty much never do, and they do play okay, with sound and video. I don't want to pay for/install Sage on every machine in my home, all Sage does for me is schedules, tunes, and moves HD video to a shared hard disk. I have no idea why PowerDVD and media player (and VLC to some extent) are having so many problems with these files. Especially when it seems that VLC can play the HDHR streamed content perfectly.

I do sympathize with the Sage tech support folks, there is an extraordinary amount of hardware configs out there, not to mention the varying media types coming down now, and the results will surely vary for reasons outside their control many times. That said, I want to make sure that I've exhausted all options here, tapping folks in the forum, before I put in a ticket to the Sage support.

I did read one thread regarding how far Sage has come in a couple years, seeming to indicate, not far. Well, with the constantly changing hardware and incoming media, I have to believe they will always be far too busy just keeping what they have going to try and really develop the software to do more. Computer related video can really be a frustrating endeavor in this day and age. We need some kind of unification.

[KryptoNyte]

Curt, here's that thread with the necessary files for isolating streams inside a channel to mimize network traffic. It worked well for me.

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36360

As a sidenote, this did not resolve any of the above issues, but I could detect a significant change in incoming/outgoing network traffic.

[KryptoNyte]

Just thinking out loud, I wonder if it would be a good test to hook one of the two HDHR tuners up to an OTA antenna and set up that tuner for that application, then start comparing cable TV vs. OTA files.

At the moment, I'm only interested in recording the main network channels in HD.

[Opus4]

OK, I'm a little lost following this... do the HDHR recordings fail to play in SageTV? Or, do you mean the recordings play fine in SageTV, but not in some other media player app(s)?

If they don't play in SageTV, then it could still be a tuner setup issue. If you have followed the instructions I posted and still have problems, contact tech support so they can look into a possible tuning issue.

If the recordings just don't play in another app... then I'm not sure what to suggest, but you could still contact SageTV to see if they know what is happening with the files.

Also, there is a debug mode in the HDHR software that allows SiliconDust to see what is happening, so you may want to contact them, too.

- Andy

[curtvm]

Curt, here's that thread

thanks.

[KryptoNyte]

Andy,

The Sage recordings:

Play in SageTV = yes, with some occasional, *very minor* stutter
Play in PowerDVD = massive video stutter, almost crashes
Play in Win Media Player = massive video stutter, locks up
Play in VLC = yes, but no sound by default. Using Curt's tip, sound works, however, I can't lock down the cache, I have to set it every time I start VLC in advance file open mode. I tried to set it to 1000ms in the VLCrc file, but every time I launch VLC after, it just changes the VLCrc file value back to 300ms.

A few additional notes:

1) I never actually use the SageTV GUI, this is the first time I've tried to use the player in long time. The only time I typically enter the GUI is to fix/maintain something in the GUI setup screens. I use the web server interface add-on to schedule TV show back to the one Sage machine from any computer in the house (or public for that matter).
2) Although the sound is a52, use of the AC3 codec (from K-lite codec pack for vista/XP) results in no sound in any of the 4 applications mentioned above. I verified this by choosing the AC3 codec in the SageTV setup menus, then switched it back to mpeg to keep SageTV player working. I tried to find caching settings in the AC3 codec setup itself, but there are none - I'm guessing caching settings would have to be part of the player application itself, to control both video and audio simultaneously.
3) My goal has never been to use SageTV to play files, it's just too expensive to install it on 5 or 6 home PC's (not necessarily the initial cost, but rather the time involved in maintaining/upgrading 5 or 6 installations). The idea is to get Sage to save my TV programs to one shared folder, and watch them all from there on any network computer.
4) Lastly, and most important, it's my understanding that today's HDTV signal from the cable company is actually just unencrypted QAM packets of data that are streamed via the HDHR box. So, with consideration to two options, I can either have SageTV software tune the device and save data to disk, or I can leave Sage completely out of it and watch live TV using VLC streamed directly from the HDHR. So the million dollar question is, why do the two techniques mentioned here give different results if they are both just playing/saving the same packets of data, one of them doing it live, and the other is saving them to disk? Additionally, why can Win Media Player and PowerDVD no longer play the recorded files since I installed the latest version of SageTV?

... I put a ticket in to both Sage and Silicondust. If either of them has any solutions, I'll post them back here for any interested parties.

Originally Posted by Opus4

OK, I'm a little lost following this... do the HDHR recordings fail to play in SageTV? Or, do you mean the recordings play fine in SageTV, but not in some other media player app(s)?

If they don't play in SageTV, then it could still be a tuner setup issue. If you have followed the instructions I posted and still have problems, contact tech support so they can look into a possible tuning issue.

If the recordings just don't play in another app... then I'm not sure what to suggest, but you could still contact SageTV to see if they know what is happening with the files.

Also, there is a debug mode in the HDHR software that allows SiliconDust to see what is happening, so you may want to contact them, too.

- Andy

[KryptoNyte]

Update:

The immediate response from HDHR tech was helpful and thorough, clearly indicating no problems with the HDHR unit.

9 days and no response from Sage crew.

[Opus4]

Check your spam folders to see if that's where SageTV's response went.

And/or send me a PM with your email address that you used when contacting SageTV -- they don't have anything with the email address you used when registering on this forum.

- Andy

[benjatelcom]

I discovered that the problem with skipping was a result of zone alarm (free) version 7. If I stop ZA service it plays smooth, if I start the service it stutters.

Just tested this in XP and vista, and it is reliable. This was following advice from silicon dust!