Why I don't like the default STV Part #1: The Main Menu

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

I wonder if that would be a good setup wizard question: "What types are media will you primarily be using Sage for?" Then customize the main menu based on their answer.

An even better option would be to install basic menu items for TV and Video only and then dynamically add main menu items for music and pictures based on the media you have imported. If you don't have pictures imported, pictures wont automatically show up but you could enable the menu item manually, even if empty or you could manually disable an item even if populated.

[stanger89]

I just want to say that agree or not with the content, this is exactly the type of post a lot of us who have "defended" the stock UI (against the "it sucks" brigade ) have been asking for. Clear, concise, and above all well explained description of what could be better and why. "It looks better," isn't very helpful, but your description below is actually quite helpful in explaining what is better (or what is lacking in Sage).

Originally Posted by wado1971

For me it’s less of a “what items should be on the main menu” question but more of the look & feel xbmc gives over sagetv. It’s not what’s on the screen but how your eye moves around it. So, I installed xbmc and stared at it for awhile – here’s my thoughts FWIW. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XBMC_Home_Screen.jpg ...link to xbmc default screen - seems to have been removed from OP)

What I like about xbmc’s main menu (default) – in comparison to sagetv (default):

1) The entire main menu has multiple sections that mesh very well together without looking cluttered. Compared that to a single solid background color with no distiction.

2) The heading bar (gray bar on top) is clearly layed out & nicely shadowed. Compared to sagetv’s heading bar…… oops, sagetv has no distinction. Also, the “xbmc media center” title pops out very well.

3) The menu navigation is well defined within it’s own gray box which stands out from the screen (shadowed) and is clearly distinguished as the navigation center. My grandmother would know where to focus her eyes & what to do with the remote.

See, normally I'd just say "there's nothing wrong with a solid background picture", but this is an excellent description of how the differentiation of the different sections is helpful.

4) The photos are pleasing. I’ve always thought that icons where the way to visually notify a selection choice but xbmc shows us a nice alternative to signal different selection choices and take up all that screen space at the same time (one BIG clear icon). The enourmous background space in sagetv has always bothered me and when I fill it with various functional items (weather, preview, etc) they simply look plopped onto a white board & cluttered. And OMG… that turns into the preview pane – looks fantastic.

I agree on the plopped/cluttered, I always turn off the disk space bar, and have never liked the other misc "plopped on" stuff that some like on the homepage. Though I'm not really a big fan of the huge pictures for "icons".

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

I wonder if that would be a good setup wizard question: "What types are media will you primarily be using Sage for?" Then customize the main menu based on their answer.

I'm not sure; I think it's a different object model. I'd like to see a Media Center that derives its menu choices from what you want to do, as opposed to where the content lives. I'd be concerned that if you focus on what type of media you want to consume, then the opportunity for cluttering up the decision tree increases (and continues to increase as you add content sources).

For example, if I were to answer your question with answers like "watch Live TV", "record TV", "Watch DVD's", "Play MP3's", "Internet Radio", "Imported Video Files", "Pictures", "Online sources", do we add menu items for each one of those? What happens if Sage works out a deal with NetFlix and officially supports them? Does that become a new menu option? At what point do we wind back up where we're at?

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I agree on the plopped/cluttered, I always turn off the disk space bar, and have never liked the other misc "plopped on" stuff that some like on the homepage.

This is an area where personal preference is big and you wouldn't want to force anything on by default. I think the best way to do it would be to have a section in the setup wizard that allows you to select the widgets you want and get a image preview of what it would look like on the main menu. That way it would allow users to tailor it to their own definition of "cluttered".

Speaking of widgets on the main menu, since its come up a few times in this thread,

* I really enjoy the SageMC weather widget. Since I'm usually watching TV just before I go out, the last thing I do before I shut down is go to the main menu and check out the temp. I'm fairly certain I wouldn't bother to do this if I had to go into the weather screen. At least to me, this is just as useful to know as the time. In fact, adding optionally adding the temp to the date/time wouldn't be the worst idea in the world.
* I don't think the "Recording Space" bar belongs on the main menu, but it should be always there by default when I'm viewing my recording list. Additionally, if my space is getting into the red, it could pop up in the main menu just as a warning to let me know to either delete stuff manually or Sage will do it on its own.
* I'm also not a fan of the Upcoming/Recent recordings widget on the main menu. If I'm interested enough in that information it'd take me less clicks to get to the actual recording menu which should feature this information prominently (more on this later).

Another element that I never even considered was the Text Scroller in XBMC. I'm torn on the usefulness of a strictly RSS scroller, but if you were to treat it like a news/sports channel where you intersperse other information with the RSS feeds it could be more useful. For instance, you could scroll the current weather, disk usage, the next/previous 5 recordings, new episodes of top 10 favorites, etc. It could be a nice way to pack in a lot of information in without overwhelming the main menu visually.

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

For example, if I were to answer your question with answers like "watch Live TV", "record TV", "Watch DVD's", "Play MP3's", "Internet Radio", "Imported Video Files", "Pictures", "Online sources", do we add menu items for each one of those? What happens if Sage works out a deal with NetFlix and officially supports them? Does that become a new menu option? At what point do we wind back up where we're at?

This is a good example of just doing something vs. doing it smartly.

Take into account that you only can show so many menu items per page, and then assign each menu item a importance rank. For instance...

Rank 1 - Sage Recordings, Imported Videos/Music/Photos
Rank 2 - Program Guide, Schedule Recordings, Online Services, Setup
Rank 3 - Live TV, ???

Then also, determine an alternate submenu path to place items under if there's no room left in the current menu.

Now, when you go to populate the menu, place the Rank #1 ones on the main menu first and then take do everything else on a case by case basis taking into account how much room is left.

Obviously, there are some holes in this implementation, but I've also only thought about it for about 1 minute. A much more robust/functional solution could be built upon this concept or one like it if the designer took some time and put some thought into it. If it were me, i'd use this concept combined with Greg's 2-pane main menu where more important items in the submenus could be promoted to the main menu if there was room.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

This is an area where personal preference is big and you wouldn't want to force anything on by default. I think the best way to do it would be to have a section in the setup wizard that allows you to select the widgets you want and get a image preview of what it would look like on the main menu. That way it would allow users to tailor it to their own definition of "cluttered".

Oh, I agree completely, and that's something I've been noticing throughout this whole thread. I'm not sure how best to phrase it so I guess I'll put it this way, I read many of the requests in this thread and think to myself "man I hope Sage doesn't do that" (not that they're wrong/bad ideas), and it just makes clear how there's no way Sage could hope to make even a lot of the community happy.

Another element that I never even considered was the Text Scroller in XBMC. I'm torn on the usefulness of a strictly RSS scroller, but if you were to treat it like a news/sports channel where you intersperse other information with the RSS feeds it could be more useful. For instance, you could scroll the current weather, disk usage, the next/previous 5 recordings, new episodes of top 10 favorites, etc. It could be a nice way to pack in a lot of information in without overwhelming the main menu visually.

I think such a scrollbar would be a very clean, simple, "neat" way of putting a lot of the "cluttered" info on the main screen without making it cluttered. Have is scroll next recording, disk space, current recordings, etc (obviously user configurable info would be ideal).

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Oh, I agree completely, and that's something I've been noticing throughout this whole thread. I'm not sure how best to phrase it so I guess I'll put it this way, I read many of the requests in this thread and think to myself "man I hope Sage doesn't do that" (not that they're wrong/bad ideas).

Yeah, "universal agreement" are not two words I expect to see much in these discussions

But, I also don't think (and I imagine you agree) that the lack of "universal agreement" should prevent/absolve Sage from continuing to explore ways to evolve their UI. As you said, there are *a lot* of interesting ideas presented in this thread and I think they all deserve a little consideration from on high.

Originally Posted by stanger89

...and it just makes clear how there's no way Sage could hope to make even a lot of the community happy.

IMHO, Mike/Dirk's insanely flexible dynamic Main Menu serves as a good example that with the right options, level of configuration, and ease of use you can please a very wide range of people without making rigid compromises that favor a specific visual preference. Honestly, I don't see any reason why Sage isn't adapting their implementation, applying a little corporate polish, and continuing to develop/improve/support it internally.

Heck, you can even remake the default STV *inside* their implementation and no one would be able to tell the difference.

[JREkiwi]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

Heck, you can even remake the default STV *inside* their implementation and no one would be able to tell the difference.

You may not be able to tell the difference on the Main Menu. But you'd still end up with all the other foibles of using SageMC.

John

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by JREkiwi

You may not be able to tell the difference on the Main Menu. But you'd still end up with all the other foibles of using SageMC.

John

I'm strickly talking about the dynamic main menus which could be lifted from SageMC and dropped into any STV. If done right it'd be completely transparent and would launch the same screens as before.

[JREkiwi]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

I'm strickly talking about the dynamic main menus which could be lifted from SageMC and dropped into any STV. If done right it'd be completely transparent and would launch the same screens as before.

I misread your previous post as saying that SageTV should adopt SageMC, (as has been mentioned far too many times before), and just using the dynamic main menus to make the Main Menu look like the current default STV.

I agree, that it would be good to get a structure like those incredibly customizable menus into the default STV and I thought of attempting a port of the SageMC code, but looking at the code for it made my eyes bleed.

John

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by JREkiwi

... I thought of attempting a port of the SageMC code, but looking at the code for it made my eyes bleed.

Yeah, mine too.

I think it would actually be a lot easier (and cleaner) to build customizable menus for the default STV from the ground up. Conceptually, the customizable menus are very simple. Unfortunately things quickly got very complex trying to shoe horn them into the existing SageMC code.

Aloha,
Mike

[JREkiwi]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

I think it would actually be a lot easier (and cleaner) to build customizable menus for the default STV from the ground up.

Mike, is that an offer?

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Conceptually, the customizable menus are very simple. Unfortunately things quickly got very complex trying to shoe horn them into the existing SageMC code.

I could never get passed the complexity of it to proceed any further.

John

[wado1971]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

IMHO, Mike/Dirk's insanely flexible dynamic Main Menu serves as a good example that with the right options, level of configuration, and ease of use you can please a very wide range of people without making rigid compromises that favor a specific visual preference. Honestly, I don't see any reason why Sage isn't adapting their implementation, applying a little corporate polish, and continuing to develop/improve/support it internally.

I just came off a few weeks living with SageMC and was impressed to say the least. The customization was cool and a couple of the canned themes were very nice (ie - centersage). But in the end, I'm back at the default, for among other things... the fact that I'm not a graphics designer. And I think, as it's previously been stated, the general purchasing public need to see a well laid-out presentable solution PRIOR to skinning (first 5). And then the skins need to retain a sense of continuity to the original product. I think the default UI needs to be updated at the core by SageTV. AFTER the UI update.... I'm all for dynamic menus (v7.1 )

Over the past 3+yrs usage, of by far my most used and beloved "gadget", I only recommended SageTV to two people. Both were colleges who I knew would appreciate what's under the hood so to speak. This year I seriously considered purchasing an HD200 for my father and using an old pc for his server. In the end I settled on the GPS for the sole reason that I thought he wouldn't get past SageTV's layout and get to the point of actually enjoying the product. In general... I want to recommend this product more often (out of the box!).

Sorry if the above is off course.

Back to the menu items....... Did you notice the two icons in the lower right corner of xbmc? One is for Power & Settings which pulls up a very nice option bar in the center of the screen (great place to stick 'Toggle Full Screen'/'Standby'/'Setup') getting them off the main menu list. The other button is titled 'favorites' which ..... well it looks like it could be used to hold additional menu items. Maybe user customizable at this 'hidden' level to satisfy the fanatics who need ever option conceivable while still retaining a clean user experience for everyone else in the home.

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by JREkiwi

Mike, is that an offer?

Not any time soon. I'm working on another project that will take up nearly all of my free time this year.

Aloha,
Mike

[gveres]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

* I really enjoy the SageMC weather widget.

I too find this extremely useful. I use it much more than I ever thought i would before I started using SageMC

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

* I don't think the "Recording Space" bar belongs on the main menu, but it should be always there by default when I'm viewing my recording list. Additionally, if my space is getting into the red, it could pop up in the main menu just as a warning to let me know to either delete stuff manually or Sage will do it on its own.

To me this goes into the "status snapshot". I like to know the health state of my system at a quick glance at the main screen. But that doesn't mean the health state needs to be visible if everything is a-ok.

But then again, there is something about knowing the amount of space I have. When I have 250 GB free, I don't care what is coming up, but when I have 30 GB free I start to worry about what will be deleted in the next 24 hours.

The diskbar of the default STV looks ugly because it uses no shading what so ever. And if I remember correctly it is really basic, pure colours. (I can't figure out how to turn it on at the moment to get a better look at it).

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

* I'm also not a fan of the Upcoming/Recent recordings widget on the main menu. If I'm interested enough in that information it'd take me less clicks to get to the actual recording menu which should feature this information prominently (more on this later).

You know, I tried enabling that last night when I found it for the first time. I like the upcoming and recent list in the Recorded TV section, but having it on the main screen just looked junky and clutered up the otherwise nice display of SageMC.

[sainswor99]

this seemed appropriate:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/05/m...-news-network/

Favorite quote? "Everything is just a few hundred clicks away."

[stanger89]

That's awesome!

[stevech]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

this seemed appropriate:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/05/m...-news-network/

Favorite quote? "Everything is just a few hundred clicks away."

The date for this should have been 2009/April/1

[tchapin]

In terms of the SageTV stock STV main menu, I find that it's not organized in a way that's logical to me. I admit that I had been a TiVo owner for 4 or 5 years prior to moving to SageTV. As the number of displays grew in my home, I really wanted a way to access my media in the same way from any of them. I already had a server set up for my music. TiVo's solution in that type of environment is suboptimal. Also, they share some of the same weaknesses as Sage in terms of robustness of accessing non-TV-recordings media. And a shout-out to Mike, if it weren't for SageMC, I would not have purchased SageTV. Overall, it fits my mental model of how this type of application works much better than the stock STV.

I don't really care about animations or splashy graphics. Don't get me wrong, I want it to look nice, but being really shiny doesn't matter to me. I'm a MVP / placeshifter only watcher and turn off all the animations anyway.

Right now, I'm checking out the stock STV on placeshifter and SageMC on my MVP and here are my thoughts:

- The color blue that the stock STV uses for the background seems gloomy.

- For extender usage, the icons in the upper right are useless (with the exception of conflicts).

- I like that the date and time are listed.

- It does seem sparse, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

- I never (well, really really rarely) watch live TV, so having the watch and guide options on the main menu are not useful to me.

- Probably 90% of the TV that I do watch is recorded from favorites, so the schedule option right on the main menu is not that useful to me.

- If I want to watch a video, view photos, or listen to music, it's annoying that I have to click into the media center option. However, in SageTV, I am not annoyed that the TV option goes to the MyTV screen which would require me to click the "recorded TV" option if what I want to watch is not one of the last four things recorded. Perhaps it's because the MyTV screen shows potentially useful information, while the "media center" screen does not?

- The standby option is not useful to me since I use extenders.

- I rarely access the online services, for various options that can be discussed if that becomes a topic.

- I don't see the problem with having the options / settings / setup type option on the main menu. If you hide it or make it password protected by default, then people who are not power users will have trouble finding or accessing it. Making it an option to have it password protected could make sense though. However, if your friends are dicks enough to screw around with your settings, don't let them use the remote...

- I like the diskbar in SageMC, but agree that it would probably be fine if it were shown only on the TV related screens. This makes me think though, what if your non-recordings media (video, music, photos) are on a separate drive from any of your recordings? Should there by a way for SageTV to show you how much drive space is left on that drive? That could be useful...


I wonder if there's a big difference between the preferences of those that use extenders / placeshifters vs clients? The fact that Sage was initially developed as a client only piece of software still drives much of the functions / features of the product. Like the "standby" and "full screen" options on the main menu. BTW, the moon icon in the upper right is also a standby command, right? If so, then standby is on the main menu twice.


Things that I would like to see discussed as a future topic in this series:
- The organization of the settings menus.
- The interaction styles that result from client (mouse) vs extender (remote) usage. For example, in the SageTV media screens (recordings, video, music, photos), it does not seem logical to me to have a horizontal (view filters) and vertical (links to functions). Also, the use of icons on the vertical menus instead of text makes them more difficult to understand. Another example (I think) is the usage of T9 style text entry as the default.
- I'm unsure on this one, but the inconsistent usage of terminology (such as favorites vs series).
- Conflict resolution still seems like it's not presenting all of the options / information that I would need in the most logical way. However, I think that it's gotten better over time.
- The way that the online services is organized / maintained.
- The STV import interface / terminology.


Thanks.

Todd

[evilpenguin]

Hey guys, FYI, i'm gonna have Opus move the SageTV: PVR or Media Center into another thread.