My ongoing Sage TV experience

[lightmind]

I have been experimenting with PC based PVR's since I became aware that they were available. Now that several years have passed I have immersed myself in current offerings in earnest.

I have installed a system for a client who expressed an interest in the PVR and consolidated photo / music application. I have yet another job on the burner.

Initially I spec'd LinuxMCE (via Fiire) for the system. Their sample video is just plain cool. The equipment consists of a gigabit network infrastructure, a Fiire server, and six Fiire stations (mini-pc's that can mount on the back of the LCD or on the wall behind the LCD), 5 HD-PVR's & external TeraByte RAID boxes.

After monkeying with Linux & Fiire for a month or two (and losing my ass in unbillable time trying to make it happen) I decided to switch to Sage. While the Linux MCE solution is appealing, in reality it is just not there yet. The main reason for the switch was finnicky LinuxMce support for the HD-PVR. A secondary reason was the fact that it takes quite alot of time and resources to get up to speed in Linux. I had been using BeyondTV personally for about a year. BeyondTV worked well for me when I had the Hauppauge HD OTA tuners, but when I added a HD-PVR I could not get the client working. BeyondTV does not fully support the HD-PVR. Also, BeyondTV does not have an integrated solution for photos, videos, etc. which is what I was aiming for- the holy grail of a HTPC.

My plan for my client was to have 5 HD-PVR's, an optimistic approach but I am the eternal optimist. Keep in mind that this is a whole-house system, the HTPC's are integrated into the multi-zone audio system and it is a rather large home. I had a pow-wow with my clients and explained my reasons for switching vendors in mid-stream. So it was humble pie, crossed fingers and off to Sage.

Since LinuxMCE has a network boot (a great feature IMO) but windows does not without jumping through alot of hoops I added XP Pro and had to install Hard drives in the clients. Then came the issue of an anti-virus. The cost rose significantly, by hundreds of dollars. But hey, it's got to work right? My next roadblock came with the HD-PVR IR remote control limitation (IR Blaster) when I discovered that the built-in blaster could not work with multiple HD-PVR's. So I added 2 USB-UIRT's to the mix.

I prepared the client PC's and built the server. The server has ample USB ports but I ran into issues because the HD-PVR's are USB, the Raid drives are USB and the USB-UIRT is USB. I added two powered hubs and put them on separate USB branches. I had to add another powered hub for the USB-UIRT (when I plugged it into the USB port on the server the OS did not recognize it, a sign of inadequate power).

The external Raid drives (4- 2TB units) have SATA & USB interfaces; The sata connections were not reliable and the drives kept getting disconnected. I tried updating drivers, etc. with no solution. I ended up using the USB connections for the drives; they have been much more reliable but I was hesitant to load so many bandwidth intensive devices on the USB bus.

As it stands, I have 2 HD-PVR's working reliably and will be adding the rest soon. Two of the units were DOA and were sent back for replacements. But that's not the end of the story.

Sage TV is an enticing piece of software. But I have discovered that it has some failings, most notably in HD video support (H.264, although Sage is way ahead of anyone else in this regard) & the music/video interfaces are clunky, particularly when it comes to the limited indexing and sorting.

I have focused my efforts on the live TV / PVR function since my clients will be using the system primarily to watch & record TV. What I have found is that no matter what tweaks are performed the Live TV is just not as good a quality or as stable as the Cable box output. First off, the cable boxes must be downgraded to 720p output for even a chance to make it work. I found that the client on the server would handle the native output for viewing but the clients would not. A step forward & two steps back. In addition, the Sage recording buffer flips every half-hour causing the client to freak out for a few seconds- not acceptable. The circular buffer (or another method) is a must in the near future. The video on the networked clients is just jumpy enough to be noticeable.

I am using the MainConcept decoder (beyondtv) for H.264. I tried the Arcsoft decoder (& others- CoreAVC, DivX etc.) on the clients with poor results. Many, many hours of experimenting.

Still, there are random issues with a/v sync & studdering.

I paid careful attention to the infrastructure, using very nice GB switches, and the recording drives were setup with 64K block NTFS. All of the clients and the server have GB NIC's.

I also used UNC paths for the Sage recording and media directories.

The bottom line is that none of the PVR / HTPC offerings including Sage are ready for prime-time. The configuration has been a tremendous vacuum of time and energy, and the system still does not meet expectations in it's current state.

I have researched and read these forums to try to optimize the system and perhaps obtain the quality and reliability I was looking for. My compliments to all the people at Sage and the users who have obviously spent a lot of time and effort to solve problems and add features. However, the myriad tweaks and options are somewhat frustrating when you are trying to solve an issue and I think, way over the head of the average customer. As it stands, one really must be a geek to make it work.

I hope that future releases will add functionality, address the encoding/decoding hitches, and add a more comprehensive configuration routine. BTW, the built-in configuration works great, but if problems crop up it's necessary to jump into the guts to solve many of the issues.

I know about the HD Theater but chose not to use it because my client wants to use XP at times to surf the web or access their work PC, etc.

In the meantime, I am plugging away to achieve the best possible performance. One thing that I am looking at is- why does the live tv work so well on the server (I use the server client just for troubleshooting / configuration) and not so well at the client with network utilization less than 2% max and CPU around 25%-30% on the client & even less CPU utilization on the server?

I think I will install a large, fast hard drive on the server's internal sata interface & see if TV works better. As it stands, that seems to be the most likely candidate for the issues...

I am looking forward to the day when I have a completely functional system with the quality I expect.

[freedml]

Originally Posted by lightmind

...As it stands, one really must be a geek to make it work.

but if problems crop up it's necessary to jump into the guts to solve many of the issues.

I am looking forward to the day when I have a completely functional system with the quality I expect.

Amen.

[bluenote]

I guess "not ready for prime time" depends on who's doing the work and what the expectations are. Systems integration (and thats what this is) is complex work.

IMHO you've caused your own problems here by biting off too much, with technologies you aren't familiar with, and, from your brief descriptions, not being real methodical about your processes. And for a customer, no less. :/

Just from a 'best practices' perspective you're going to do way better with standardized appliances rather than 5 or 6 PC's that have moving parts, caches that fill up, need maintenance, configurations that slowly become different over time, etcetera. By this I mean you need to consider the HD100/200.

A couple of notes that occur to me from things that stood out -- you ought to have checked if your customer's ISP provides free commercial antivirus -- mine does, and I've got 5 work/home PC's running it. There are also free alternatives. As well, badly configured virus software is one of the best ways to screw up a computer system that is performance sensitive, so I would start with disabling all of it as a control.

Good luck

Cory

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by lightmind

I have been experimenting with PC based PVR's since I became aware that they were available. Now that several years have passed I have immersed myself in current offerings in earnest.

I have installed a system for a client who expressed an interest in the PVR and consolidated photo / music application. I have yet another job on the burner.

Initially I spec'd LinuxMCE (via Fiire) for the system. Their sample video is just plain cool. The equipment consists of a gigabit network infrastructure, a Fiire server, and six Fiire stations (mini-pc's that can mount on the back of the LCD or on the wall behind the LCD), 5 HD-PVR's & external TeraByte RAID boxes.

After monkeying with Linux & Fiire for a month or two (and losing my ass in unbillable time trying to make it happen) I decided to switch to Sage. While the Linux MCE solution is appealing, in reality it is just not there yet. The main reason for the switch was finnicky LinuxMce support for the HD-PVR. A secondary reason was the fact that it takes quite alot of time and resources to get up to speed in Linux. I had been using BeyondTV personally for about a year. BeyondTV worked well for me when I had the Hauppauge HD OTA tuners, but when I added a HD-PVR I could not get the client working. BeyondTV does not fully support the HD-PVR. Also, BeyondTV does not have an integrated solution for photos, videos, etc. which is what I was aiming for- the holy grail of a HTPC.

My plan for my client was to have 5 HD-PVR's, an optimistic approach but I am the eternal optimist. Keep in mind that this is a whole-house system, the HTPC's are integrated into the multi-zone audio system and it is a rather large home. I had a pow-wow with my clients and explained my reasons for switching vendors in mid-stream. So it was humble pie, crossed fingers and off to Sage.

Since LinuxMCE has a network boot (a great feature IMO) but windows does not without jumping through alot of hoops I added XP Pro and had to install Hard drives in the clients. Then came the issue of an anti-virus. The cost rose significantly, by hundreds of dollars. But hey, it's got to work right? My next roadblock came with the HD-PVR IR remote control limitation (IR Blaster) when I discovered that the built-in blaster could not work with multiple HD-PVR's. So I added 2 USB-UIRT's to the mix.

I prepared the client PC's and built the server. The server has ample USB ports but I ran into issues because the HD-PVR's are USB, the Raid drives are USB and the USB-UIRT is USB. I added two powered hubs and put them on separate USB branches. I had to add another powered hub for the USB-UIRT (when I plugged it into the USB port on the server the OS did not recognize it, a sign of inadequate power).

The external Raid drives (4- 2TB units) have SATA & USB interfaces; The sata connections were not reliable and the drives kept getting disconnected. I tried updating drivers, etc. with no solution. I ended up using the USB connections for the drives; they have been much more reliable but I was hesitant to load so many bandwidth intensive devices on the USB bus.

As it stands, I have 2 HD-PVR's working reliably and will be adding the rest soon. Two of the units were DOA and were sent back for replacements. But that's not the end of the story.

Sage TV is an enticing piece of software. But I have discovered that it has some failings, most notably in HD video support (H.264, although Sage is way ahead of anyone else in this regard) & the music/video interfaces are clunky, particularly when it comes to the limited indexing and sorting.

I have focused my efforts on the live TV / PVR function since my clients will be using the system primarily to watch & record TV. What I have found is that no matter what tweaks are performed the Live TV is just not as good a quality or as stable as the Cable box output. First off, the cable boxes must be downgraded to 720p output for even a chance to make it work. I found that the client on the server would handle the native output for viewing but the clients would not. A step forward & two steps back. In addition, the Sage recording buffer flips every half-hour causing the client to freak out for a few seconds- not acceptable. The circular buffer (or another method) is a must in the near future. The video on the networked clients is just jumpy enough to be noticeable.

I am using the MainConcept decoder (beyondtv) for H.264. I tried the Arcsoft decoder (& others- CoreAVC, DivX etc.) on the clients with poor results. Many, many hours of experimenting.

Still, there are random issues with a/v sync & studdering.

I paid careful attention to the infrastructure, using very nice GB switches, and the recording drives were setup with 64K block NTFS. All of the clients and the server have GB NIC's.

I also used UNC paths for the Sage recording and media directories.

That's why a lot of us run extenders. Cheaper, easier, and often, better.

The bottom line is that none of the PVR / HTPC offerings including Sage are ready for prime-time. The configuration has been a tremendous vacuum of time and energy, and the system still does not meet expectations in it's current state.

I have researched and read these forums to try to optimize the system and perhaps obtain the quality and reliability I was looking for. My compliments to all the people at Sage and the users who have obviously spent a lot of time and effort to solve problems and add features. However, the myriad tweaks and options are somewhat frustrating when you are trying to solve an issue and I think, way over the head of the average customer. As it stands, one really must be a geek to make it work.

Frankly solutions like SageTV aren't targetted at the average customer, those are who standard DVRs are for. SageTV et all are for people who are more technical and want more than what off the shelf DVRs can provide.

I know about the HD Theater but chose not to use it because my client wants to use XP at times to surf the web or access their work PC, etc.

Then frankly you're at the mercy of Windows and its sometimes (apparently often) problematic video/media playback support. Back when I was using my HTPC, I couldn't get acceptable video until I used the bundled (with the HD PVR) Arcsoft TMT decoders with DXVA enabled on my AMD 780G motherboard. And even then, SD support wasn't very good.

In the meantime, I am plugging away to achieve the best possible performance. One thing that I am looking at is- why does the live tv work so well on the server (I use the server client just for troubleshooting / configuration) and not so well at the client with network utilization less than 2% max and CPU around 25%-30% on the client & even less CPU utilization on the server?

How's the hardware compare between them? Is one using DXVA and not the other?

I think I will install a large, fast hard drive on the server's internal sata interface & see if TV works better. As it stands, that seems to be the most likely candidate for the issues...

I've got no idea why your eSATA was giving you trouble, unless you were using a cheap RAID controller or something.

I am looking forward to the day when I have a completely functional system with the quality I expect.

Seriously, get one HD200 and try it out. Lack of Windows "access" is a small price to pay for everything else it does easier/better than a PC. Especially if it's a "budget" PC.

[wayner]

I agree with you on the recording methodology for LiveTV but this has become much less of an issue for me since I never watch LiveTV and once you get totally used to living with a PVR I fail to understand why anyone would ever watch a show live. I am a huge sports guy but I never even watch sports live - generally I watch an hour or two into the game. But it is hard to say to your clients - just don'w watch LiveTV.

Trying to start with any PVR with the complexity caused by going to 5 HD-PVRs is just not wise. I assume that this is for whole home distribution to five TVs simultaneously. But this is like any IT project, when you are using unfamiliar technology that is on the leading edge you should take it incrementally.

As far as anti-virus goes, perhaps I am being incredibly naive but I wonder if you really need it for a system that is just working is a PVR and is not a system where someone is going to be downloading software, using email, browsing the web, etc. For a dedicated PVR I don't think it is necessary. I may be jinxing myself in saying this but I have been running XP MCE for 2+ years with no antivirus and no infections and a Sage WHS box for 3 months with no antivirus and no infections. Using extenders also will help deal with this issue.

[lotusvball]

Can someone explain to me the benefit of using the HD-PVR vs the HDHomeRun. I found the HDHomeRun extremely easy to setup and picture quality is outstanding. But maybe there is a benefit or reason that you would have to go with the HD-PVR instead.

[stanger89]

The HDHR can't record premium channels.

[wayner]

To expand on what stanger89 said - you plug the component outputs of your cable or satellite box into the HD-PVR. This means that EVERY channel you subscribe to can be sent to the HD-PVR even VOD, PPV, HBO, etc.. The downside is that you need an IR blaster or firewire to tune the channel and some people have stability issues with the HD-PVR. One other issue, which can be considered either a pro or a con, is that the recorded TV files are H.264 rather than MPEG files.

[autoboy]

To be completely clear, the HDhomerun can't record encrypted channels. Most cable companies broadcast the locals unencrypted as required by law. Some cable companies encrypt all channels, and some leave them all unencrypted. The only way to know for sure is to try it. The only way to get encrypted channels is through a R5000 or HD-PVR. (or cable card but that is only on VMC)

[PLUCKYHD]

Being a custom integrator myself I have to agree with others you bit of more than you can chew on a technology you didn't know anything about.

I have been doing windows media center pc's for over 3 years and just recently delved into sage. I feel I knew media center almost inside out. Sage is a whole new ball game and I am no where near ready to install to clients. I have "test" system out in the wild for a client that I am constantly tweaking and monitoring for him, but this is a friend who is understanding and got the system at cost.

I can't understand the benefit of pcs over hd200's nor using linux with raid over WHS. Even still the sata's should be 100% relieable if they are set up correctly (hardware based is my preference) and are on a good sata controller.

If my custom wanted internet than I would put a pc where he wants internet or get him some laptops. The hd200 is too headache free and the only way to go for client based systems IMHO as the only thing you really have to troubleshoot if their are problems is the server itself and not multiple pc's for the most part.

I don't know your technicall background in computers but I think you bite before you are ready

My stragedy has always been I won't sell a customer something I don't/ wouldn't use myself.

As for whole audio system you are talking of tieing into sage is not the way to go for that there are better options creston, sonos etc.

[ghostlobster]

Regarding the client/server differences...that should not be an issue. I'm running 100% client/server, have 3 clients hanging off of one server and things look great...even on the wireless 802.11n client.
2 things to check...1 - With GB ethernet, make certain that jumbo frames are off. They cause headaches left and right with streaming.
2 - Someone else already asked, this, but what are the client specs? Video card, RAM and CPU. Particularly if you're viewing h.264. If you want to view h.264 reliably and clearly, I recommend Vista so that you can use EVR without jumping through hoops.

[lightmind]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Just to be clear, I am by no means a novice... I am a network engineer and have been integrating systems for years (16 to be exact). I know MS products inside and out, as well as LAN/WAN. I also have a great deal of experience in the audio and video world as I used to do custom installs.

I wanted to share my experience, god knows it's consumed a large part of my life recently. To those who believe they are experts that's great, but as I asked my old friend who was really good at Galaga (remember that arcade game?) and whose ego was the size of Kentucky- how many quarters did you put in the slot before you got so good?

I know I bit off alot, but I thought I could make it work. Believe me I did not go into this blind...

That being said, my point was that there is just no easy solution in the HTPC world, especially for those who want to go above and beyond. And you gotta admit, a functional HTPC (or a few) sure does make the guests drool.

At any rate, today I got 4 of the HD-PVR's online with a 720p picture on each of five client machines, with the stereo audio piped through the multi-zone audio system, and surround sound in the media room. Just one more to add and I can finish up.

It can be done if you're willing to spend the time. I just wish it was in glorious 1080i or p instead of 720p!

[wayner]

Originally Posted by lightmind

It can be done if you're willing to spend the time. I just wish it was in glorious 1080i or p instead of 720p!

Well done! You're making progress.

You do realize that it isn't Sage or the HD-PVRs fault that you can't get 1080p from a TV signal via an HD-PVR as 1080p as HDTV signals are either 1080i or 720p - 1080p is not one of the current ATSC TV formats.

There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to get 1080i however - I have two HD-PVRs connected to my Sage server one running 720p and one running 1080i and they both work fine. Four of my clients are HD-200 extenders, but one additional client is a PC.

[mickp]

Originally Posted by lightmind

I know about the HD Theater but chose not to use it because my client wants to use XP at times to surf the web or access their work PC, etc.

In the meantime, I am plugging away to achieve the best possible performance. One thing that I am looking at is- why does the live tv work so well on the server (I use the server client just for troubleshooting / configuration) and not so well at the client with network utilization less than 2% max and CPU around 25%-30% on the client & even less CPU utilization on the server?

I thought I'd go check out the Fiire devices you've been using. Unfortunately their site seems to have disappeared.

This wiki entry re: the fiire products doesn't sound encouraging. It seems that the fiire stations are based on the VIA CX700 single chip system.

Given that people with real graphics cards can have difficulty with getting 1080 to display fluidly I'm not suprised that you can't manage better than 720p. I reckon that there's every chance that the playback problems you're experiencing relate to crappy hardware at the client which can't manage to render 1080.

Can you copy a recorded 1080 file to the box and try playing it back without Sage? If you put the sage client on a pc with higher specs (say one that you could play crysis on) does 1080 work? If so I'd suggest ebay for the fiire machines.

Mick.

[rerooks]

One thing that people don't often consider is that the problems that people have with the HD-PVR aren't SageTV's fault. The problem is in the hardware, and it is Hauppague's fault. There is no practical alternative.

But, irritating as it is, it does work, and I have hundreds of hours of TV shows successfully recorded on my 3 HD-PVRs and the USB-UIRT works flawlessly. It is a normal reaction that if something doesn't always work, then you complain about it.

One more thing to consider, if you wish to surf the web and watch SageTV from the same screen, then you can still do it fairly cheaply by using an HD-200 and a low power PC, even a netbook, with a VGA out. I have two configurations, one a LCD monitor with a DVI and a VGA input. I have an HD-200 and a PC hooked up to it. I have another with a 50" plasma TV, and a HD-100 and PC hooked up. I just switch inputs to access the other device.

If you spend the money on a device powerful enough to be a SageTV client to play HD videos, it will likley be close to the same cost of a cheap Atom PC and a HD-200...and much cheaper if you consider how much your time is worth.