Really tired of hack jobs... Anyone else?

[wrems]

The advantages of these so-called “hacks” far outweigh the cons. Yeah, it can be tricky getting a bunch of plugins working together and configured just the way you want. At the same time, that is why we bought Sage. We didn’t buy a “dumb box”, we wanted to customize and go beyond the run-of-the-mill options available. Otherwise, we would have bought the dumb box. The best part of a Sage is its developers. Without them we wouldn’t have many of the features that give our systems the wow factor to the outsiders with their dumb boxes.

One has to be flexible and patient when choosing to use a developer’s blood and sweat. You have to go into the process expecting hiccups and be willing to share and work with others to overcome your obstacles.

BTW, every time I had a problem with a plugin or botched my install it was solely because of my error not because of the developer’s. I think it is easier for some to point fingers rather than take responsibility and try-again.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by mlody11

...it was decided that for some damn reason the central folder would now be different...

"Hack" was truly an unfortunate choice of words to start with, especially related to the central folder structure. I followed http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ad.php?t=40155 daily over a period of weeks, marvelling at the exchange of ideas, cooperation among developers and input from others while the central fanart folder "standards" were conceived and born.

The exchanges between evilpenguin, stuckless, jaminben and others was unprecedented in my time on this forum (only 8 months, I'll admit). What a joy it was to watch unfold.

These are not "hackers", these are developers. They deserve our thanks. Nothing less.

[MacDaddy]

Dude - almost a hundred years ago when I was a younger man, I had a friend named Jeff who lived down the street. He came to my house one day excited that he had finally convinced his Dad that the car he was driving just didn't pass the mark anymore. After working on his Dad for the weekend, he finally got his Dad to agree to take care of things. He wanted me to drive him to the local dealerships to pick up some material for the next car. Jeff and I ride off on my Yamaha (no car for me) past Jeff's dad, who is washing his car in the front drive, and make the rounds. We talk about the right way to "help" his dad make a better decsion this time around. Jeff worked up a really good speech. We cruised back to the neighborhood past Jeff's shiny clean car with a big "For Sale" sign on it. A few weeks later Jeff had a nice new 10-speed.

Moral of the story - be happy for what you have. Don't complain about the free stuff that other people have sweated out that you aren't forced to use. But if you do complain, be prepared for someone to come wash your Sage system and get ready to ride a 10-speed to desktop architect for lots and lots of machines.

Karma can be a biatch.

[stuckless]

Well... it appears I may have been a little unfair to the OP... after doing a search through the bmt code, it appears that I am a "hack".... On the flip side, you'll be happy to know that the phoenix code is "hack" free.... for now

But on serious note... and in agreement with Helen, there is usally a lot of collaboration that goes into many of the plugins and apis. Not all discussions happen in the forums. Sometimes the discussions are taken offline, which may lead to the appearance of "quick" decisions with little discussion.

Many developers devote a considerable amount of time to trying to provider a good user experience, and sometimes we fall short. But, as I've said in the past, you are the QA group. We can't find all the bugs, and sometimes, even a simple bug falls through the cracks. Beleive or not, it happens in the "real development world" as well. All in all, I think the user community does a great job QAing the developer mods, providing support, and providing contructive feedback on bugs, improvements and enhancements. So from me to you... thanks for the hours you spend, in addition to the hours that I spend, making sure the plugins work as intended.

[PAF]

Let me explain a little more before you guys decide to stone me to death...

I have never called the developers of these add-ons hack jobs, nor have I been disrespectful to them. To defend myself... "While the scripts the developers make on this website are great, it is time consuming as heck..."

The problem, as I tried to elaborate in my earlier rant with little success is that, when working with so many changing variables when one add-on is based on another, in addition to changing Java variables and SageTV items, things get lost and damaged in the mix. I know it is not the developer's fault... Simply, the method of organization of these add-ons (instructions, code, etc.) is poor and needs some reform if it is to attract more consumers.

In addition... I had a disclaimer... "I am probably just venting right now..." Although that does not excuse a person from saying anything, the post should really be read with a grain of salt, abstracted from reality and not in the way of... I want my money back because this sucks. The internet is very impersonal...

As to the issue of the "dumb box"...as it was said..."Again, your sage can be just like a tivo... just don't mess with it."

True... but with this approach, you loose the benefits of Sage. It is quite the risk to invest into a small company, so there should be a benefit. The strength of SageTV is it's customizations. If it was not for SageMC, I don't think I would have jumped on board with SageTV. All I'm saying is, people want the customizations, otherwise you are avoiding the benefits that you probably signed up for. SageTV is a good product, but. It's golden goose, the customizations, are becoming quite difficult to keep organized, and with it, the goose starts to loose it's value.

A side note...: It is very interesting that everyone interrpreted the post as calling the developers, hack jobs. The post does say "Really tired of hack jobs... Anyone else?" While I did not intend for that to come out calling the developers "hacks", I did intend to say that, overall, the adding of plugins of various kinds, with information spread around in a rather maze like fashion, seems like a hack. Hack meaning as duck tape and glue solution.

Are people insecure about the add-ons to respond with such an out lash to an, arguably, valid point? Other than probably a poor word choice in the word "hack," what is so terribly bad about the post?

Look, the post is in a "General Information and Discussion" page... If people can't rant about stuff in here, where can you rant? Do we really live in a society where if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all? Some of this stuff was constructive... Is my opinion that these add-ons are very difficult to keep sorted, that much out of line? Sometimes we hear things we don't like but it is a good idea to ask ourselves why we don't like it... I certainly learned my lesson here.

Look, if you guys want me to take the post down, I will ask a mod. to do so. This post ended up being Sad in so many ways. Either way, looks like a new account is due for me... .

[lotusvball]

On the point of keeping the add-on's sorted. Is there anyway that we can split out the STVi's category in the download section between - Default STV and SageMC STV. I am so lost sometimes trying to find the addons that go with my STV.

[chrishallowell]

I would really like to see a SageTV add-on installer.

It would list all of the available add-ons along with the current version of the add-on and the version you have installed, if any. It would also need to list if it's for SageMC or SageTV. To install one, just select it and hit install. During installation, the add-on could prompt the user to fill out the initial settings and update the config file.

There should be an option to uninstall addons too.

Addons could include UIs, themes, plugins, graphic sets, etc.

(Homeseer has one like this for user developed plugins and it works very well.)

[Skirge01]

@mlody11: It took a lot to come back and try to "fix" what was started and I give you credit for that. The issue was the "hack job" comment. If you want to know why it ruffled feathers, read this.

While you're correct that you should be able to rant about things in a free society, WHERE you rant and TO WHOM you rant is very important. I may not like the way my boss is doing things, but I guarantee you if I walk in there telling him he's an idiot and doesn't know a thing about the company, I'm not going to be able to finish my rant before I'm in the Human Resources office or walked out the front door. If a person feels the need to rant, go rant to a friend, a relative, a significant other... anyone EXCEPT the person/people being ranted about.

Then, once tempers have calmed down and thoughts have been gathered again, go explain the issue and offer up some suggestions on how to change things. People are much more receptive to ideas, suggestions, and constructive criticism, than they are to rants.

[Shield]

Originally Posted by mlody11

I work as a desktop architect for lots and lots of machines... granted windows only.

What the heck is a desktop architect?

[PAF]

There should be an option to uninstall addons too.

Love that idea! Most of us don't have time to backup particular items for particular add-ons and test whether it works the way we want it to before moving forward. I would save a lot of time for everyone.

If you want to know why it ruffled feathers, read this.

I hope those numberings are not in any particular order...
I quote 3rd and 4th in my defense

"3. A crude and improvised or temporary solution to a problem, designed to be more functional and timely than precise, durable or of good quality.
4. Something done with little forethought, organization, planning or precision"

vs. the 1st and 5th section...not what I had in mind. Section 2 doesn't help it either...

The question remains, I guess, what is a hack job? The hack job is the way all the add-ons come together and work within Sage for the combined experience. The add-ons themselves are NOT hack jobs.

Originally Posted by Shield

What the heck is a desktop architect?

Its a position where you design and, based on the size of the company also manage, Installation/Deployment of Software, a standard operating environment, best practices for scripts, active directory, etc... Pretty much designing the daily tasks that the IT department does for a company. Of course, desktop related ONLY. The server group gets to poke around with servers. Granted it isn't full blown development of software, but basic knowledge of .NET, HTML, TCP/IP, Installers, etc. is in order.

People are much more receptive to ideas, suggestions, and constructive criticism, than they are to rants.

Agreed. Although I'm not sure I would agree with the Boss analogy... You have a subordinate relationship in that situation. Are we subordinates to the forums in Sage? I hope not. Granted, rants are not good either way. In my rage, I guess that is why I tried being at least a little constructive at the end.

[Skirge01]

Although I'm not sure I would agree with the Boss analogy... You have a subordinate relationship in that situation.

Then replace "boss" with spouse/significant other. Now, Human Resources = couch and the front door option still applies quite perfectly!

3. A crude and improvised or temporary solution to a problem, designed to be more functional and timely than precise, durable or of good quality.
4. Something done with little forethought, organization, planning or precision

If you apply this to someone's hard work, you'll most likely still deeply offend them. If you apply it to the way the import system itself is implemented, you'll get responses like others have mentioned.

I think we can move beyond this now. Nothing to see here... move along.

[hockeyfan]

Actually I work in s/w around a lot of hardware engineers. Often times I have to piece software with various operating systems to make it work. It has been referred to as a 'hack job' at times become of the complexity to make it work and how it is not streamlined and clean. This is more of a company wide accepted term that usually does not result in people thinking of shoddy work. So when I first read hack job I didn't read it as an insult but rather as a cumbersome task.

And I was quite of suprised how offended people got at that comment.

[flashbacck]

Originally Posted by chrishallowell

I would really like to see a SageTV add-on installer.

It would list all of the available add-ons along with the current version of the add-on and the version you have installed, if any. It would also need to list if it's for SageMC or SageTV. To install one, just select it and hit install. During installation, the add-on could prompt the user to fill out the initial settings and update the config file.

There should be an option to uninstall addons too.

Addons could include UIs, themes, plugins, graphic sets, etc.

(Homeseer has one like this for user developed plugins and it works very well.)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the way STVs work, it's not always easy to remove imports, and this is one of the reasons Sage was reluctant to release the Studio tools in the first place.

[PAF]

Originally Posted by hockeyfan

Actually I work in s/w around a lot of hardware engineers. Often times I have to piece software with various operating systems to make it work. It has been referred to as a 'hack job' at times become of the complexity to make it work and how it is not streamlined and clean. This is more of a company wide accepted term that usually does not result in people thinking of shoddy work. So when I first read hack job I didn't read it as an insult but rather as a cumbersome task.

And I was quite of suprised how offended people got at that comment.

This explanation is probably the closest in line to what I was referring to. Nicely said.
Either way, I believe there is problem with the way customizations are installed and managed within SageTV...

Then replace "boss" with spouse/significant other. Now, Human Resources = couch and the front door option still applies quite perfectly!

LOL! You usually get income when human resources are involved, in this case you have to pay and deal with human resource... can I go on disability? Then again, don't want to loose those "health" benefits. I've gone too far...

If you apply this to someone's hard work, you'll most likely still deeply offend them. If you apply it to the way the import system itself is implemented, you'll get responses like others have mentioned.

Which response is that? The import system was designed by Sage... No offense, but, personally, it, the import system, feels like one of those definitions.

[Shield]

Originally Posted by mlody11

Its a position where you design and, based on the size of the company also manage, Installation/Deployment of Software, a standard operating environment, best practices for scripts, active directory, etc... Pretty much designing the daily tasks that the IT department does for a company. Of course, desktop related ONLY. The server group gets to poke around with servers. Granted it isn't full blown development of software, but basic knowledge of .NET, HTML, TCP/IP, Installers, etc. is in order.

We call those people at work desktop techs. Not architects. I work on the server/network team for a U.S. gov't network (40,000 + node users). I have 2 MCSE's, Cisco, Novell certs, a Bachelor's degree in Information Technology (summa cum laude) and 15 years experience. I would still never call myself an architect. Ever.

Also, we don't let the desktop techs touch AD, short of resetting passwords or moving Exchange mailboxes around. Don't be offended by my post - I did desktop stuff when I started out in the mid 1990's. But where I work is so large that there's an application/development team that works on rollouts of major upgrades (like Office 2007) as well as Citrix stuff. The desktop support basically re-Ris's a machine if it cannot be resolved in like 10 minutes, and they work at/for the help desk. How big is the company you work for? Did they give you the title Architect? I certainly hope they pay you an Architect's salary! Where is George Costanza right now? Vandalay Industries?

[Wheemer]

I think an import manager like the stock STV would be really nice to see in SageMC.

[PAF]

Originally Posted by Shield

We call those people at work desktop techs. Not architects. I work on the server/network team for a U.S. gov't network (40,000 + node users). I have 2 MCSE's, Cisco, Novell certs, a Bachelor's degree in Information Technology (summa cum laude) and 15 years experience.

Thats great.... want a cookie? I was going to write a length response, but instead I PM'ed you with the garbage...

[Shield]

Originally Posted by mlody11

Thats great.... want a cookie? I was going to write a length response, but instead I PM'ed you with the garbage...

I had a point to listing my qualifications - the point was no matter what I'd never call myself any type of "computer" architect, especially if my position was a desktop tech....
I really wasn't curious where you worked or what you made either. No reason to PM me anything...good luck to you.

[Shield]

Originally Posted by mlody11

Of course, desktop related ONLY. The server group gets to poke around with servers.

I think this is what caused me to be offended. Sure, that's all we do with servers is poke around with them. Never mind that we have to make sure we have worldwide AD replication, disaster recovery, SAN knowledge, support SQL clustering, Exchange clusters, and have to support boxes that 1500-2000 people hit concurrently. It's a lot more involved than just "poking around" with them...

[tmiranda]

I just ran across this thread. I want to personally thank the following for their "hacks":

- Tiki - Fanart on the default STV is heaven.
- Sean - Your automatic fanart downloader is fantastic.
- neilm - How would I live without your webserver?
- JRkiwi - Thanks to your Commercial skip STVi I no longer have to watch commercials.
- Eric - Comskip is a marvel.

Thank you for "hacking".

Edit: Steep too for ComSkip Monitor!