extender vs full client

[panteragstk]

My feelings are this. I will use clients in most cases because extenders don't have the ability to put in a dvd or br and just play it. That will keep my WAF lower than having to tweak things once in a while.

Some cases extenders will make more sense, but not all. For my usage clients make more sense.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yeah, I care about 3 and (sorta 4), but I've got an Xbox 360 for 3.

By 3D games, I meant games in true 3D. Only device that really can do that currently is the PC. VERY Impressive though.. it's a shame I can't play and modern Madden games in it though... (Damn you EA for dropping the PC platform)

Originally Posted by stanger89

As far as 4, what 3D movies are there for the PC, and how do they fail to work on an extender? As far as 2, menus (DVD or BD) have always been little less than a neusance to me and BD ones haven't impressed me yet. And IMO HD Audio is overrated (or the difference between it and the legacy core is).

Going a bit off topic, but the 3D videos I watch are mostly small-time productions, pioneers in the field really. HD 3D is pretty much in its infancy, but the extender cannot drive my set in 3D mode. The DLP3D is done in a 1 pixel checkerboard pattern, so the left and right images have to be decoded and THEN interleaved to be sent to the set. Compressing the already interleaved image would blur the images, and cause crosstalk between eyes. This is why the extender cannot play it back. The BDA has finally started looking at the 3DBluRay format, so hopefully someday some 3DHD movies get released from real studios, but those will only be playable on specialized players, or of course.. PC..

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Let's say I have a file that doesn't play right on the HD 200 (like a WMV HD file w/ VC-1 and WMAPro audio). If it doesn't play correctly, I wait until it becomes a priority fix. Which, in this case could mean forever because the effected audience is very small and there are more important things to do.

Or let's say that I have a file with DTS-MA audio where the core crashes the HD200's decoder requiring a trip to the back of device to make it work again. Because it's a HW issue, there is no fix.

Both classes of file work fine on my PC, but if they didn't I could do something about it besides wait.

Maybe you do, it's not as simple as "it's a PC so you can fix it yourself". I remember having to wait on Cyberlink to fix BD compatibility issues. There's no way to fix that yourself.

I know what you're saying, and don't disagree with it, I just look at it differently, especially having thought about it more:

PC: Easier to workaround/resolve configuration issues (ie codec, renderer, etc), but more likely to have configuration issues.

CE: Harder to workaround/resolve configuration issues, but less likely to encounter them.

Both (unless your a skilled coder running OSS code) you're at the mercy of the developer to fix bugs with the product.

I see choice as a feature. If the decoder you're using doesn't work right on the PC you can change it; sure you're at the mercy of another dev (unless you are the dev), but that's not any different than being at Sage's mercy except that statistically you're more likely to find a workaround (which you note).

I used to think having lots of choices on the PC was a good/better thing. I never really expected CE devices to replace my HTPC. But the HD100 did that. Now I see having a core set of hardware decoders for all "standard" codecs (MPEG-2/4/AVC/VC1) to be a feature.

It is my preference to not be powerless, to have choice, and the freedom to exercise it if necessary; that's why I started using a HTPC in the first place.

Me too, I took an S2 Tivo back after 2 days because I didn't like the closedness of it. That's just the thing with extenders, they do everything I ever did on my HTPC, and frankly do it better and with less fuss.

Only two exceptions are surfing, which IMO is better on a laptop, and Blu-ray's from the drive, and my Pioneer BD player smokes my HTPC and the crappy BD software that's available.

Even if you can't hear the [admittedly small] difference b/w lossless and core, you should be able to hear the difference b/w multi-channel and stereo.

You lost me, I get multichannel from all my BD rips with my extender.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

By 3D games, I meant games in true 3D. Only device that really can do that currently is the PC. VERY Impressive though.. it's a shame I can't play and modern Madden games in it though... (Damn you EA for dropping the PC platform)

Ah, I see. But like you (sorta) I prefer console games (still seems somewhat funny actually saying that). No Forza Motorsport on the PC.

Going a bit off topic, but the 3D videos I watch are mostly small-time productions, pioneers in the field really. HD 3D is pretty much in its infancy, but the extender cannot drive my set in 3D mode. The DLP3D is done in a 1 pixel checkerboard pattern, so the left and right images have to be decoded and THEN interleaved to be sent to the set. Compressing the already interleaved image would blur the images, and cause crosstalk between eyes. This is why the extender cannot play it back.

What format do they come in? Surely not raw video?

The BDA has finally started looking at the 3DBluRay format, so hopefully someday some 3DHD movies get released from real studios, but those will only be playable on specialized players, or of course.. PC..

Supposedly next year (2010). Everyone was showing 3D Blu-ray and displays at CEDIA.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Maybe you do, it's not as simple as "it's a PC so you can fix it yourself". I remember having to wait on Cyberlink to fix BD compatibility issues. There's no way to fix that yourself.

AnyDVDHD, eac3to, etc. All ways to fix it yourself w/o having to wait.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I know what you're saying, and don't disagree with it, I just look at it differently, especially having thought about it more:

PC: Easier to workaround/resolve configuration issues (ie codec, renderer, etc), but more likely to have configuration issues.

CE: Harder to workaround/resolve configuration issues, but less likely to encounter them.

Both (unless your a skilled coder running OSS code) you're at the mercy of the developer to fix bugs with the product.

You don't need to be a skilled coder to workaround issues on the PC, although it certainly helps if the problem requires some coding

Originally Posted by stanger89

You lost me, I get multichannel from all my BD rips with my extender.

any multi-channel format that doesn't bitstream gets output as stereo.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by babgvant

AnyDVDHD, eac3to, etc. All ways to fix it yourself w/o having to wait.

You may be able to workaround the issue, but you can't fix it.

You don't need to be a skilled coder to workaround issues on the PC, although it certainly helps if the problem requires some coding

If you can't work around the problem, yes you do have to be a skilled coder.

any multi-channel format that doesn't bitstream gets output as stereo.

Do you have an extender or have you ever used one? TrueHD and DTS-HD are output (if setup right) as 5.1 from the extender. Yes it's the legacy DD/DTS core, but it's 5.1. I don't know about PCM as I've never run into one of those (but true in that case I think it's stereo).

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

You may be able to workaround the issue, but you can't fix it.

That depends on what the issue is and how you define "fix".

Originally Posted by stanger89

If you can't work around the problem, yes you do have to be a skilled coder.

You can always use a different piece of SW (or is that a work around?), that doesn't require any coding.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Do you have an extender or have you ever used one? TrueHD and DTS-HD are output (if setup right) as 5.1 from the extender. Yes it's the legacy DD/DTS core, but it's 5.1. I don't know about PCM as I've never run into one of those (but true in that case I think it's stereo).

I have an extender (HD200). There are more multi-channel formats than DTS and DD variants; some e.g. are FLAC, AAC, and WMAPro.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stanger89

What format do they come in? Surely not raw video?

well, no, not RAW. There are a variety of ways to package the video, all using current standard codecs and containers. Most have been distributed as left/right or up/down... meaning they are just a standard video, but either twice as wide, or twice as tall...
3840x1080... decoded, then split and displayed every other pixel.

Lately, the trend has been towards dual-streaming the videos.. usually two video streams in the same container. One for left, and one for right. This is the way 3DBluRay SHOULD be implemented, because it allows one of the streams to be played back by itself on non-stereo equipment. Either way, the results, when from a good director, are simply amazing.

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by stanger89

PC: Easier to workaround/resolve configuration issues (ie codec, renderer, etc), but more likely to have configuration issues.

CE: Harder to workaround/resolve configuration issues, but less likely to encounter them.

+1.

Having ran PC clients for 4 years I found that while you could fix most playback probelms for a particular file, most of the times this created issues with other files. It was a never ending battle.

A year ago I retired my last PC client and found peace.

Sure the HD100/200s can't handle 100% of what's out there but we know what they do handle and can avoid using the the unsupported files.

[Fuzzy]

Client BluRay Rip support is this-a-way... (shameless plug.. i can't help myself)