SageMCTuner - use a cablecard in Sage!

[Clift]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Any suggestions? Looking at my body of work, you can probably guess that naming stuff isn't my forte.

TOCUR
Truly Open Cable UnDRM'ed Recorder

WTV2Sage?

MC Network Encoder

CableCARD2Sage

OMGL33th4x0rProgram

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by Clift

OImagine with the right cable provider if channels that you don't get with the HDHR such as USA, SYFY, Disc HD, HD Theatre, TNT, TBS, SPEED HD, ESPN, MTV, etc etc etc are all of a sudden available.

The key being "with the right cable provider." I doubt this will be the case with the majority of providers.

I think most folks don't realize yet that recording choice will be limited. I can't imagine many folks will want to bother with this.

But, certainly don't want to rain on anyone's parade if they're excited.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

I doubt this will be the case with the majority of providers.

I think most folks don't realize yet that recording choice will be limited

I think you might be surprised. Besides the HBO's of the world most will be available to record on Time Warner, Comcast and the others.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by Brent

I think you might be surprised. Besides the HBO's of the world most will be available to record on Time Warner, Comcast and the others.

Agreed just think anyone who has a tivohd if they are able to transfer those shows using the tivo software then they are copy freely.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by Brent

I think you might be surprised. Besides the HBO's of the world most will be available to record on Time Warner, Comcast and the others.

Interesting. Most non-local channels weren't in Clear QAM on my Comcast setup a year ago. CNNHD and Espn definitely weren't. But, I guess the Clear QAM doesn't apply here and it's a different system.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Interesting. Most non-local channels weren't in Clear QAM on my Comcast setup a year ago. CNNHD and Espn definitely weren't. But, I guess the Clear QAM doesn't apply here and it's a different system.

Almost everything where I live is marked w/ 5C which breaks clear QAM and FW recording; but since the DCT has the necessary bits to work with that it's all about how it's tagged.

Ultimately, I don't know how useful this will be only time will tell. Worst case it provides an option to make ATSC/QAM/NTSC tuners that Sage doesn't support and MC does work.

[fyodor]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Interesting. Most non-local channels weren't in Clear QAM on my Comcast setup a year ago. CNNHD and Espn definitely weren't. But, I guess the Clear QAM doesn't apply here and it's a different system.

I think that you're mixing up QAM encryption and copy protection flagging.

QAM encryption refers to whether the signal is transmitted in encrypted form. These days very little, other than locals are transmitted unencrypted, but it used to be the case that some basic cable channels (ESPN, TNT) were transmitted unencrypted. QAM encryption affects your ability to tune with QAM tuners like the HDhomerun.

Copy protection flagging refers to a separate data flag that is transmitted with encrypted signals. Several authorized decryption devices rely on the copy protection flagging to control access to decrypted data. For example, the ability to receive firewire captures from your cable box, or transfer shows between TivoHDs is governed by the copy protection flagging.

Similarly, OCUR tuners, with the new firmware, will rely on the copy protection flagging to determine whether to apply DRM to recordings.

It varies from system to system, but it's generally the case that there are a good number of channels that are transmitted encrypted, but with copy protection flags that enable copying of the decrypted data.

[fyodor]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Almost everything where I live is marked w/ 5C which breaks clear QAM and FW recording; but since the DCT has the necessary bits to work with that it's all about how it's tagged.

Ultimately, I don't know how useful this will be only time will tell. Worst case it provides an option to make ATSC/QAM/NTSC tuners that Sage doesn't support and MC does work.

It's my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong-you clearly have much more expertise with this stuff) that the copy protection flags that are relied upon by the cable box to determine what type of 5C firewire output to use are the same flags that are relied upon for the OCUR tuners to determine whether something is copyable. Ergo, no firewire means no DRM-free OCUR recordings.

F

[brb84]

This sounds incredibly promising. Will definitely be watching this closely. Good luck!

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by fyodor

I think that you're mixing up QAM encryption and copy protection flagging.

QAM encryption refers to whether the signal is transmitted in encrypted form. These days very little, other than locals are transmitted unencrypted, but it used to be the case that some basic cable channels (ESPN, TNT) were transmitted unencrypted. QAM encryption affects your ability to tune with QAM tuners like the HDhomerun.

Copy protection flagging refers to a separate data flag that is transmitted with encrypted signals. Several authorized decryption devices rely on the copy protection flagging to control access to decrypted data. For example, the ability to receive firewire captures from your cable box, or transfer shows between TivoHDs is governed by the copy protection flagging.

Similarly, OCUR tuners, with the new firmware, will rely on the copy protection flagging to determine whether to apply DRM to recordings.

It varies from system to system, but it's generally the case that there are a good number of channels that are transmitted encrypted, but with copy protection flags that enable copying of the decrypted data.

Now that explanation makes a lot of sense and clarifies how this may be very useful. Thank you fyodor.

The next question is, how can I tell what flagging is used by my cable company? I *think* I will be one of the lucky ones because I currently have one "box" from the cable company that I use to get their "premium digital" channels that are not available via Clear QAM or standard (from the wall) analog. If I am understanding this correctly, I could use this setup instead of the "box" provided by the cable company. Is this right?

[wayner]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

The next question is, how can I tell what flagging is used by my cable company?

My cable company uses SA boxes and the 5C encryption, which is what I believe is being referred to, is available from their diagnostic menu. Here is how you get to the diag screens on SA boxes, at least with my firmware:

1. Tune to any digital station.
2. Depending on the STB, you may need to use the composite, S-video or component video connection.
3. On the box itself (not using the remote), press and hold the "+" (or select) button for a few seconds, the "envelope" (mail) light will come on. (the + button is the "bulls-eye" in the middle of the 4 "arrow" keys - on newer models like the SA8300HD it's the "select" button).
4. Press the "info" key next.
5. This takes you to all kinds of information.
6. Press the right and left arrow buttons (next to the "+" button) to scroll through the pages.

On some of these pages you will see the see the flagging. I believe it can actually be set based on the show, not just on the channel. I can't remember exactly what it says but I think it is either Copy always, Copy once or Copy never.

[MitchSchaft]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Now that explanation makes a lot of sense and clarifies how this may be very useful. Thank you fyodor.

The next question is, how can I tell what flagging is used by my cable company? I *think* I will be one of the lucky ones because I currently have one "box" from the cable company that I use to get their "premium digital" channels that are not available via Clear QAM or standard (from the wall) analog. If I am understanding this correctly, I could use this setup instead of the "box" provided by the cable company. Is this right?

"Voted" for most use of "quoations".

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by fyodor

It's my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong-you clearly have much more expertise with this stuff) that the copy protection flags that are relied upon by the cable box to determine what type of 5C firewire output to use are the same flags that are relied upon for the OCUR tuners to determine whether something is copyable. Ergo, no firewire means no DRM-free OCUR recordings.

F

My understanding is that FW passes 5C downstream, so even if the content is flagged copy freely w/o a valid 5C key the consuming device wouldn't be able to do anything with the content.

The DCT has all of the necessary keys, so it will be able to read the flags and process the content. AFAIK it fully removes all of the transport level DRM (5C) and optionally rencrypts the file using PlayReady DRM.

The change in the new firmware is that it uses the flags to decide if the file should be encrypted so the two things are not related.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Now that explanation makes a lot of sense and clarifies how this may be very useful. Thank you fyodor.

The next question is, how can I tell what flagging is used by my cable company? I *think* I will be one of the lucky ones because I currently have one "box" from the cable company that I use to get their "premium digital" channels that are not available via Clear QAM or standard (from the wall) analog. If I am understanding this correctly, I could use this setup instead of the "box" provided by the cable company. Is this right?

Originally Posted by MitchSchaft

"Voted" for most use of "quoations".

Voted worst time to not have spell check. (quotations)

Gerry

[MitchSchaft]

[gplasky]

[ohpleaseno]

Cats and Dogs. Cats and Dogs.

[MitchSchaft]

meow! rawr

[VikingCrown]

dogs!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by babgvant

My understanding is that FW passes 5C downstream, so even if the content is flagged copy freely w/o a valid 5C key the consuming device wouldn't be able to do anything with the content.

If things are working right, Copy Freely content can be recorded in the clear with Firewire. This is how some have been able to use Firewire to record everything. It's when Copy Freely is not set (ie Copy Once) that the box enforces DTCP (5C) protocol over firewire. And since PC's aren't DTCP compliant they fail the handshake and are prevented from recording.

Firewire and CableCard should work the same way regarding the flags, no CP/DRM on Copy Freely (that's what freely means after all ), CP/DRM on Copy Once, and no recording of Copy Never.

Now there's been discussion that some providers' boxes don't work right WRT Firewire and CP flags, enforcing DTCP on everything. Which is where our skepticism comes from. The "relaxed" restrictions shouldn't bring anything new, they should just open CableCard up to where Firewire should have been all along, but we've seen the problems with Firewire so we are skeptical that the same won't happen with CableCard.

The DCT has all of the necessary keys, so it will be able to read the flags and process the content. AFAIK it fully removes all of the transport level DRM (5C) and optionally rencrypts the file using PlayReady DRM.

FWIW, DTCP isn't the encryption used to transport the content to your house (I believe that's DigiCypher II, Dish uses Nagravision 3, and DirecTV VideoGuard), it is encryption/copy protection added by the STB after demuxing to the content while transferred over FireWire to a compatible recorder (ie DVHS).

The change in the new firmware is that it uses the flags to decide if the file should be encrypted so the two things are not related.

And theoretically we should be able to use the success of Firewire to decide that, which would indicate things are not as open as many hope. But if it's a case of Cable providers providing "broken" firmware to their STBs, then things should be better.