SageTV on Windows 7 FAQ

[Tiki]

I'm building a new SageTV server this week and plan to install Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit (my old server is running Win XP Pro). I was surprised to see that Win7 is not officially supported by SageTV yet. I'm wondering if anyone has published an FAQ on what needs to be done to get Sage working smoothly...

Here are some of the questions I know I will need to find answers for:

[Edit: I have added additional questions and answers to some of the questions - 2010-01-03 16:30EST]

1. I know we can't run SageTV at the same time as Win7 Media Center (or Vista Media Center, Beyond TV, or anything else that would want to use the TV Tuners). Do I need to take steps to specifically disable Win7 Media Center? What is the best way?

A: Easiest way is to go to the Windows Control Panel. Select the Link on left side window for "Turn Windows Features On or Off." Follow folder tree to "Media Features" folder, open and go to "Windows Media Center" and uncheck the box. This will remove the Media Center components, but you can get them back easily by following these same steps and just re-checking the box.

2. SageTV stores a lot of configuration information (properties files, wix.bin, etc.) inside the same folder where it stores the Sage program files (ie. c:\program files\sagetv...). Win Vista and Win7 use something called the virtual store to prevent people and software from doing this and I understand that this can cause a lot of headaches, including problems with Sage's auto-update routines. What is the best way around this? Should I disable UAC, install Sage to a different location?

A: There is a detailed explanation of how files get stored differently depending on whether UAC is enabled or disabled and whether Sage is running as a Service or not here. One easy fix is to just disable UAC, but this makes your PC a little less secure. The best solution is probably to just install Sage to a different location outside of the default "Program Files" or "Program Files (x86)" directories. A good alternate location would be "c:\SageTV".

After doing this, you should be able to do automatic updates to the SageTV STV, but you will need to edit a line in the sage.properties file or you won't even see the option to check for updates. The line is "version/allow_Vista_STV_updates=true" and it must be true if you want to be able to update automatically.

As an additional note, please review this post for a warning about using the HDHomerun if you have chosen to install Sage to an alternate directory and leave UAC enabled.


3. I understand that Win7 supports a new renderer called EVR. What are the pros and con's of EVR versus the older Overlay, VMR7 and VMR9 renderers?

4. I understand that Win7 has built-in decoders for many video formats. How do I make these decoders available inside SageTV? Would I want to do this (do these decoders offer better quality, lower CPU usage, etc.)?

5. I've seen a large thread over in the Beta forum talking about a "Native Patch". What exactly is this and do I need it?

6. I've seen some posts warning that if I use a 64-bit operating system with 4GB of RAM or more installed, my older Hauppauge tuner cards (such as PVR-150) will not work. What is the best solution for this?

A: There are a couple of options. (1) Install the 32-bit version of Win7 (it won't be able to see the full 4GB or RAM, so there shouldn't be a problem). (2) Upgrade to a newer video card that is fully supported in Win7-64bit environments. (3) Remove some memory (only install 2 or 3GB). (4) Disable some memory (follow the instructions in this post).

7. I get the error message " Failed setting the infrared transmitter port!" when I try to install a new video source which involves using a cable set top box.

A: This will happen if you try to use the USBUIRT as both an IR Receiver and an IR Blaster at the same time and you are running Sage in Service mode. This is because in Service mode, the service and the UI (user interface) are two separate processes (programs) and the service controls the blaster functions, while the UI responds to the receiver events. Apparently there is a sercurity "feature" in Win7 that prevents two different processes from sharing the same driver if they don't run in the same security context. See this thread.

Possible workarounds: (1) Use a different program such as LM Remote KeyMap to control all of the USBUIRT functions, (2) Only use the USBUIRT for blasting or receiving, but not both. Use a separate device for the other functions, such as the Hauppauge IR Receiver.

8. I can't use the USBUIRT as both an IR Blaster and an IR Receiver when Sage is in Service mode (but it works when Sage isn't in Service Mode).

A: See the answer to the previous question.

If there are already other posts/threads that answer these questions, feel free to post a link to them.

If there are other questions that people have, or tips that you have about using Sage with Win7, please feel free to post those too.

[Tiki]

I'm going to answer one of my own questions:

Originally Posted by Tiki

2. SageTV stores a lot of configuration information (properties files, wix.bin, etc.) inside the same folder where it stores the Sage program files (ie. c:\program files\sagetv...). Win Vista and Win7 use something called the virtual store to prevent people and software from doing this and I understand that this can cause a lot of headaches, including problems with Sage's auto-update routines. What is the best way around this? Should I disable UAC, install Sage to a different location?

This post in the main Sage FAQ ( http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...2&postcount=37) explains how UAC and the virtual store work.

Since I plan to operate in Service mode and I only use this PC for SageTV, it sounds like the best route for me would be to disable UAC.

[EricandLorrie]

I second the request for a Windows 7 FAQ guide.

[gplasky]

1. Easiest way is to go to Control Panel-Turn Windows Features On or Off. (Link on left side window.)Follow folder tree to Media Features folder, open and go to Windows Media Center and uncheck the box. It is still there and installed but you've just turned it off. To turn it on just check the box again. Simple.
2. To keep it straightforward and simple I turn off UAC. I keep my network well secure so I know what is suppose to run and not run on my PCs. UAC is for a user's own protection and who really doesn't know computers well.
3. You'll need the horsepower and graphic horsepower for EVR. (Just like you did for VMR9 over Overlay) But most modern cards and even integrated chipset video can mostly handle it. You'll get a much better picture with absolutely no tearing.
4. & 5. You should get it. Go to the native patch thread and download the files and follow the instructions. This will expose the native MS decoders for both mpeg2 and h.264. (Same name for the decoders) These will also do hardware acceleration.
6. There is no 'best" solution. Decide what to give up or spend money are your choices. And the other thing to keep in mind that device drivers for Win 7 64 bit MUST be signed. Unsigned drivers will uninstall themselves and not run. So your choices:
a. Pull out 2 GB (or 1 GB -whatever)
b. assign system memory to internal video memory to lower memory seen by OS.
c. Replace your cards with newer technology that also have 64bit signed drivers for Win 7.


Gerry

[bits]

I am running W7 32bit and was running WM7. I believe all that you will need to do to stop using WM7 is to go into the TV setup in WM7 and delete the tuners and simply stop using WM7. If that does not work then do a fresh OS install, install your tuner/capture card drivers and then install SageTV. Simply forget that WM7 exists on your system. The actual number of newly supported video file types is truely under-whelming!

W7 does have a few more codecs than Vista but as I read certain articles Microsoft was sneaky and implemented 'Fast Transcoding' in W7 instead of actually supporting some video codecs. Google W7 fast transcoder and have a read. I may be wrong about it.

For more information regarding W7 codecs try Shark007. He has developed a W7 codec pack. I am not necessarily recommending you go with a codec package but the fact that there are several sources of W7 codec packs around aimed specifically at helping W7 users play a wider variety of video formats says something all by itself.

As I said I am running W7 32 bit and I run the max DRAM which is 3gb. I do not use my PC as an HTPC but use it more as a server in conjunction with the HD200. SageTV works with two tuners on my system; an old PVR150 + USB UIRT to cable STB and a USB DVICO Fusion7 HDTV + OTA. I had no issues setting it up or with running it. I have CoreAVC installed and Shark007. I can play pretty much anything using VLC. However, since I am using my system as a server and the HD200 natively decodes it really is not that important to have my PC in a state to play everything. The only thing I have not cracked is playing WMV HD that was encoded using WMA Professional 10 but fortunately the HD200 does play it.

I can not comment on EVR since I am in a state of ignorant bliss regarding what it brings to the table. I was running VMC for about 9 months prior to WM7 and IMHO when playing and messing about with video in a non-MC fashion I see very little difference between the two. There is a significant improvement between VMC and WM7 but not when taking into account the overall OS. W7 is a little snappier and does use less resources but the impact in my specific situation was minimal and in fact their implementation of 'fast transcoding' caused me considerable difficulty.

One of the first thing I did with Vista and then with W7 was turn off UAC.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Tiki

1. I know we can't run SageTV at the same time as Win7 Media Center (or Vista Media Center, Beyond TV, or anything else that would want to use the TV Tuners). Do I need to take steps to specifically disable Win7 Media Center? What is the best way?

As was already mentioned, best to disable media center from the 'windows features' control panel.

Originally Posted by Tiki

2. SageTV stores a lot of configuration information (properties files, wix.bin, etc.) inside the same folder where it stores the Sage program files (ie. c:\program files\sagetv...). Win Vista and Win7 use something called the virtual store to prevent people and software from doing this and I understand that this can cause a lot of headaches, including problems with Sage's auto-update routines. What is the best way around this? Should I disable UAC, install Sage to a different location?

An alternative to disabling UAC, is to install SageTV to another folder outside the Program Files area. I'd recommend C:\SageTV. UAC doesn't protect that path, and it will work just as well... save some typing when browsing to the path as well... The real solution would be for SageTV 7 to actual properly store configuration data in user space, but only time will tell if/when that will happen.

Originally Posted by Tiki

3. I understand that Win7 supports a new renderer called EVR. What are the pros and con's of EVR versus the older Overlay, VMR7 and VMR9 renderers?

I'd say EVR has all the advantages of both, plus greater hardware acceleration support. I don't see any reason to use VMR or Overlay in Win7.

Originally Posted by Tiki

4. I understand that Win7 has built-in decoders for many video formats. How do I make these decoders available inside SageTV? Would I want to do this (do these decoders offer better quality, lower CPU usage, etc.)?

Aside from the definate cost advantage, I have found these decoders 'just work' with any MPEG2 or H.264 I've thrown at them. No tweaking required, other than installing the 'Native Recording Patch' from the BETA forum, and adding the Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder to the SageClient.properties file.

Originally Posted by Tiki

5. I've seen a large thread over in the Beta formum talking about a "Native Patch". What exactly is this and do I need it?

Aside from properly presenting to the built-in microsoft decoders, this also provides some better support for quirky tuning sources, and MKV, if not others.

Originally Posted by Tiki

6. I've seen some posts warning that if I use a 64-bit operating system with 4GB of RAM or more installed, my older Hauppauge tuner cards (such as PVR-150) will not work. What is the best solution for this?

Honestly, the best solution would be to ditch the old cards. Sounds like a good reason to upgrade to HD. That said, if the machine is going to be running Sage, and that's pretty much it, there isn't much reason to go over 3GB, so if you're stuck to those cards, then stick to 3GB for now.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by bits

W7 does have a few more codecs than Vista but as I read certain articles Microsoft was sneaky and implemented 'Fast Transcoding' in W7 instead of actually supporting some video codecs. Google W7 fast transcoder and have a read. I may be wrong about it.

The 'Fast Transcoder' is a W7MC issue, and has nothing to do with Sage. In fact, it is analogous to the SageTVTranscoder software, when used to stream to an MVP or Placeshifter client. It has nothing to do with the Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder, which fully supports MPEG2 and MPEG4/AVC/H.264 playback on a Win7 machine.

[Polypro]

My thoughts:

Run 32 bit with 4 gigs...yeah you don't get to use it all, but really, who needs 4 gigs for a SageTV Server. (I just have 2 in mine (server/client duty), and do EVERYTHING (including CCTV server) with it...memory's never been an issue. If 64bit is as ready for consumers as they think it is...it wouldn't uninstall drivers IMO.

PVR150's et al. are handy for converting VHS tapes and look pretty good still capturing from an HD source...you just never know.

Can't speak to H.264 content, but the MS MPEG2 Decoder will get used by just setting Sage to "Default"...no Native recording patch needed. You won't *see* it in Sage, but W7 wants to use it for everything...and will with "Default".

Use EVR (but you're just building a server, right?)

P

[bits]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

The 'Fast Transcoder' is a W7MC issue, and has nothing to do with Sage. In fact, it is analogous to the SageTVTranscoder software, when used to stream to an MVP or Placeshifter client. It has nothing to do with the Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder, which fully supports MPEG2 and MPEG4/AVC/H.264 playback on a Win7 machine.

I completely agree and it was purely un-intentional to associate that move by Microsoft with SageTV. I guess I am still feeling the sting of the impact of Fast Transcoding on my previous setup. In a sense I should thank Microsoft because it was that, that finally forced me into the HD200!

I am and probably never will be a fan of transcoding on the fly in order to play a non-supported video file type and or bitrate but at least with other apps and situations there are user controls and selections...even an option to not use it. Microsoft's implementation IMO is not acceptable because there are no controls.

It is also quite possible that I may have miss read or interpreted the following article: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...03(VS.85).aspx

[Tiki]

Thanks for the information guys! As I go through my build and experiment with different things, I will try to update the first post with answers. I updated a few of the questions just now.

[Fuzzy]

I DO think you may have misinterpreted the purpose of the fast transcode functionality. It is basically a directshow implementation that allows a quiker setup of decoder to encoder. What affected you was that it is used in the implementation of UPnP that W7MC uses for devices, and your particular device was apparently NOT properly telling UPnP the formats it actually supports. Because it was not reporting that it COULD play back the other filetypes, MS decided it was better to fast transcode the file so that you could at least play it back, instead of trying to play a file that it was incapable of playing. The fault, in my eyes at least, is on your device, and not on the ms implementation.

[bits]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I DO think you may have misinterpreted the purpose of the fast transcode functionality. It is basically a directshow implementation that allows a quiker setup of decoder to encoder. What affected you was that it is used in the implementation of UPnP that W7MC uses for devices, and your particular device was apparently NOT properly telling UPnP the formats it actually supports. Because it was not reporting that it COULD play back the other filetypes, MS decided it was better to fast transcode the file so that you could at least play it back, instead of trying to play a file that it was incapable of playing. The fault, in my eyes at least, is on your device, and not on the ms implementation.

I partially agree that my device had a hand in the issue however, my device natively decodes all of the file types WM7 decided it needed to transcode. It transcoded DVD compliant mpeg2 for example. When using VMC no transcoding of the same files was done by the OS. What I blame Microsoft for is the lack of control. If they were really trying to help the consumer they would have provided a way to customize the setting and or turn it off. What I blame my device for is not having support to make a fix for the issue.

Personally I would greatly prefer that W7 or any other OS not have a hand in deciding when or if transcoding should be done. For me it is just another example of Microsoft's controlling strategy and its mentality that it is their way or the highway.

@Tiki: I am sorry for getting so off topic and for getting on a soap box.

[Tiki]

First Post has been updated...

[gcrow]

I moved my SageTV installation from C:\\Program Files\SageTV to C:\\SageTV as described in the postings here, but then discovered that some things were being stored in the Virtual Store folder and some in the program folder.

After much experimentation and troubleshooting, I discovered that some directories are referenced in the Sage Properties file and had been carried over from my original installation. I fixed it by searching the properties file for "Program" and replacing all instances of "Program Files" with the correct path for my new program folder. In my case, I just deleted Program Files on each line which left me with C:\\SageTV\SageTV\ . . .

Everything works great now.

[Fuzzy]

You really need to uninstall, and reinstall in the directory. I also never recommend transferring a properties file when moving sage around, or from a system.. I always just let it recreate one.

[scat]

Tiki

Add this to step one, if they don't want to uninstall Media Center

turn off Media Center from reacting to a MSC keyboard or IR remote

click Start | Control Panel | Default Programs | Set Program access and computer defaults

then select the option for Custom
expand chevron at right side of screen
then scrool down for category: Choose a default media player
find: Windows Media Center
then uncheck option: Enable access to this program
beside: Windows Media Center

[paulie]

Due to a pc failure I decided to upgrade to windows 7 32bit. When I reinstalled sage and upgraded my drivers my tuners now will not tune any channels ; hauppague pvr150 and hvr 900hd (analogue) and technotrend dvb s2 3600 digital. The analogue tuners scan but find no channels, the dvb s2 will not scan at all. Also sage shows as a trial on my hd 100. All this worked fine before w7. I am not a pc whiz but have set up my system with the help of the kind forum members. Any help would be greatfully accepted.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by paulie

Due to a pc failure I decided to upgrade to windows 7 32bit. When I reinstalled sage and upgraded my drivers my tuners now will not tune any channels ; hauppague pvr150 and hvr 900hd (analogue) and technotrend dvb s2 3600 digital. The analogue tuners scan but find no channels, the dvb s2 will not scan at all. Also sage shows as a trial on my hd 100. All this worked fine before w7. I am not a pc whiz but have set up my system with the help of the kind forum members. Any help would be greatfully accepted.

I'm not sure that this is the best thread to troubleshoot this particular batch of problems. However, First I would make sure you have the latest drivers from the manufacturers of your capture cards. Get those installed and if possible test them out with the software provided with those cards (eg: Hauppauge's WinTV software), then move on to trying to get them working in Sage.

As for the HD100 displaying Trial Mode, I'm not sure how the licensing worked on those. That message indicates that Sage thinks you did not register a valid license key. With the HD200s licensing is automatic, there is nothing to setup it should just work and never show a trial mode. With the MediaMVP's, you had to register a Placeshifter or Extender License on the Server. I think the HD100's may have been like this too. If so, a license code should have been provided when you purchased the extender.

To register a license, go to the Windows menu (Start Menu), and under All Programs, there should be a SageTV folder. Inside there should be "Register SageTV Media Extender or Placeshifter License." Click this and you will be prompted to enter your license information.

[freewheeling]

I don't understand the instruction to change the properties line "version/allow_Vista_STV_updates=true" :

1. Aren't we talking about Windows 7?
2. There currently isn't any line in my properties file that sets updates to either true or false. It's not there at all. Should I add something like: "version/allow_Windows7_STV_updates=true" ??

[Rico66]

Originally Posted by freewheeling

I don't understand the instruction to change the properties line "version/allow_Vista_STV_updates=true" :

1. Aren't we talking about Windows 7?
2. There currently isn't any line in my properties file that sets updates to either true or false. It's not there at all. Should I add something like: "version/allow_Windows7_STV_updates=true" ??

You should add the line as listed above, if it's not present. This applies to Vista and Win7.