Sigma & XBMC to become a serious rival?

[Nelbert]

With Sigma announcing porting XBMC to the new 8670 processor does this put XBMC into a good position to reach the mass market?

The Sigma SMP 8670 is aimed at IPTV,Satellite, Media players, IPTV/cable/satellite thin clients.

While it's only the beginning for Sigma and it'll take time to complete, the XBMC team are now focusing on the next release which mainly adds pvr back end integration.

With Sigma chips being in everything from BD players to media players to sage extenders, could XBMC end up the preferred interface of choice for OEMs a bit like NMT platform? Will it only be used for media players (seems unlikely given the direction of XBMC and the target market of the 8670)

In the UK 2010 saw media players gaining mainstream acceptance as they became readily available in normal stores, and not just specialist/internet order only.

Will 2011 see Sigma manage to pull off the consumer ready convergence of TV, IPTV, media player by offering a ready-to-go solution to OEMs as stand alone devices or for integration into TVs, STB, BD Players and more readily available in-store and not just online?

Where does it leave products like Sage? Should it stay a niche product for those who know and can it do enough to differentiate itself? Or does there need to be a push for a take home, plug-in and go mass consumer solution?

If Sigma manage to get anything to retail this year, it could be an interesting time come christmas.

[stanger89]

Depends on how crippled it is. Big OEMs are always big on over-limitation, possibly for fear of potential legal issues. I mean playing back DVD rips and MKVs is nothing special, yet it's still a pipe dream for those running Sony/Samsung/Pioneer/etc branded hardware.

Frankly I am very skeptical that the end result will be familar to PC XBMC users.

[jaminben]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Frankly I am very skeptical that the end result will be familar to PC XBMC users.

I'm not so skeptical.... with the launch of XMBC on iPhone, iPad and AppleTV (even tho they need to be jail broken) I can see them fast becoming the preferred media player platform and I have no doubt they will out strip Sage quite easily.

Once they have the pvr end sorted out it will be a no brainer for most people who want to run a media player system..... XBMC or SageTV 7 UI.

[stuckless]

I concede up front that my post is highly cynical

Xbmc/Sigma will only grow as large as Sony and other large corporations will tolerate. ie, if Xbmc becomes "mainstream" and starts to compete with things like bluray or media players from Sony, then Sony will enforce their software and design patents and kill them. It is impossible to write any software today with infringing a software patent on some larger corporation. And it's becoming all to common for larger companies to enforce those patents to kill off competition. In countries where software patents are not valid (and rightfully so in my opinion), then Xmbc may stand a fighting chance.

Xbmc will remain a niche product

[barney B.A.]

I don't think it really matters. Most consumers who buy a blu ray player, Roku, or other take home electronics don't care if its "XBMC" on some other Sony in-house produced interface. The only thing most will care about is that it's relatively easy to use and functional. For example. I offered my mom my old Tivo HD box. She said no thanks. she's content with the Comcast dvr. I can't imagine my mom or dad "jailbreaking" an apple tv just to run XBMC, let alone buying one. I think this kind of stuff will always be a niche market.

[mayamaniac]

It doesn't mean SageTV will be an inferior product. I think it's good that SageTV has a real competitor. We will see, I have my doubts that XBMC people can make anything that can rival what SageTV does currently in terms of PVR and Media player.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

It doesn't mean SageTV will be an inferior product. I think it's good that SageTV has a real competitor. We will see, I have my doubts that XBMC people can make anything that can rival what SageTV does currently in terms of PVR and Media player.

While pvr function is hard there is a reason xbmc is so heavily used and actively developed for. It works and is easy to use and works well. Take a look at their skins and dev by third party. Sage developers are great but we have one or two ui's in development they have 20 or 30 done an in development. They get the devs don't know how but they do.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

While pvr function is hard there is a reason xbmc is so heavily used and actively developed for. It works and is easy to use and works well. Take a look at their skins and dev by third party. Sage developers are great but we have one or two ui's in development they have 20 or 30 done an in development. They get the devs don't know how but they do.

Well until v7, SageTV didn't really do much to aid third party developers on the UI front. They got the core features (PVR Server/Client/Extender) to function correctly first, then give the tools for developers to make it pretty (Diamond theme). XBMC on the other hand is the opposite, they focused on looks, and now they want to add PVR functionality. But don't you think SageTV's approach is more sound?

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Well until v7, SageTV didn't really do much to aid third party developers on the UI front. They got the core features (PVR Server/Client/Extender) to function correctly first, then give the tools for developers to make it pretty (Diamond theme). XBMC on the other hand is the opposite, they focused on looks, and now they want to add PVR functionality. But don't you think SageTV's approach is more sound?

No they are different approaches. XBMC functions great and the core is pretty solid. They were originally written just to mod the first xbox game consoles and it grew from there. The developer had the tools before v7 btw they didn't have the new animation system or the plugins system but the tools have been there for developers all along.

I have to agree if they add pvr function and get a extender that carried the core function they will be a hard one to beat.

[barney B.A.]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

don't you think SageTV's approach is more sound?

I certainly do. While eye candy is nice to look at. And may use Diamond or Phoenix, I prefer the functionality and power of Sage.

[ranger]

I moved over from BTV and had been using XBMC as my media center and front end for BTV at the time. XBMC is a great application, and before Sage7 came out, I wondered why someone didn't write an interface to use XBMC as a front end for Sage. Don't get me wrong. The plugins that the SageTV community has developed for version 7 are great and bring us close to the XBMC experience, but as Plucky said, the sheer number of devs for XBMC is hard to compete with. That said, I don't want to go back to XBMC. No matter how many devs, I don't think the XBMC community can adapt to new technologies and tuners as fast as SageTV can.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by barney B.A.

I certainly do. While eye candy is nice to look at. And may use Diamond or Phoenix, I prefer the functionality and power of Sage.

Have you used xmbc? It is actually very functional and IMHO one of the easiest and best metadata fetchers out there.

[jaminben]

Originally Posted by barney B.A.

I offered my mom my old Tivo HD box. She said no thanks. she's content with the Comcast dvr. I can't imagine my mom or dad "jailbreaking" an apple tv just to run XBMC, let alone buying one. I think this kind of stuff will always be a niche market.

But thats not Sage's or XBMC's target market .... its aimed at people like you and me who want a slightly different setup other than your bog standard off the shelf PVR system.

Now if you take this target market (not your mum) and show them Sage and XBMC which do you think they will choose?

What you also have to bare in mind is even though both are niche products I'd bet XBMC already has a much larger user base than Sage and due to word of mouth etc has a massive head start. I know several people that are not all that technically minded when it comes to pc's and even though I've shown them Sage they will still go home, do their own research on Google and end up installing Media Portal or XBMC. After all its free....

Originally Posted by ranger

I don't think the XBMC community can adapt to new technologies and tuners as fast as SageTV can.

And that is one of Sage's biggest plus points.... they are completly user driven and really go out of their way to help with technical problems, something I doubt XBMC would be able to do in the same time frame.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by jaminben

I'm not so skeptical.... with the launch of XMBC on iPhone, iPad and AppleTV (even tho they need to be jail broken) I can see them fast becoming the preferred media player platform and I have no doubt they will out strip Sage quite easily.

But that's the opposite of the the Sigma thing. The Apple developments are the result of the XBMC community developing support for new hardware. Sigma is quite different, it's a large company trying to leverage a popular community app, probably to increase their own sales.

It's more like Boxee than XBMC on Apple, in that it's a "separate" project, but we have no idea as yet what will come of it.

[Nelbert]

Why would Sony want to kill Sigma when they already use their chips in some of their products? I don't see OEMs being forced by Sigma to use XBMC, but I could see Sigma supplying it as the default player in their SDK.

The Sigma Design chips are fully licensed for DRM (video media and CAM): WM-DRM, AACS BD+, CSS, HDCP, CableCard, Nagra, NDS and the list goes on... As an Oem you pay your money, you get your license and pass the cost to the consumer.

It'll be curious to see how open the system delivered is (if/when it arrives), Boxee Box isn't living upto expectations at the moment and is effectively a closed platform still.

As for content playback, nobody seems to be trying to take Western Digital to court over the WD Live TV ranges yet, which enable playback of dvd rips, mkvs, mt2s etc

The PVR integration should be interesting. MythTV is already integrated as a POC, TVHeadend, VDR have live tv enabled. The modular approach for an API means you can plugin whatever backend you want... WMC7, Sage, Myth, VDR, DVB Viewer etc... or for an OEM, their own TV backend.
I guess how well it works will depend on how smoothly an intuitively the EPG and recording sits in the system.

Will end users care if it's abc,xyz,sagetv,xbmc running the UI? Not at all. But if it can be picked up at the local store, plugged in and it works then that must put the pressure back onto the "buy a server, configure server, buy a front end, configure frontend, use pc end up in driver/codec hell" style systems whether free or paid for.

[Nelbert]

Originally Posted by jaminben

What you also have to bare in mind is even though both are niche products I'd bet XBMC already has a much larger user base than Sage and due to word of mouth etc has a massive head start. I know several people that are not all that technically minded when it comes to pc's and even though I've shown them Sage they will still go home, do their own research on Google and end up installing Media Portal or XBMC. After all its free....

To me it seem that XBMC have achived the same inertia and standards bearing that Enigma(2) has in the sat box world. It is held up as either the one to topple or the one to convert to your platform.
From something that was created for an Xbox it now seems to be available on every platform under the sun with hardware acceleration. I was very surprised to find how far it had come in the past few years.

For those talking about the SageTV interface, have a look at some xbmc videos or screenshots of the Confluence or Mediastream interfaces and the current pvr work.

With boxee box being a closed platform, Google telling partners not to mention GTV at CES, I think this could be an interesting year both for hardware devices and competition in the media player/pvr arena, probably from unexpected directions.

[korben_dallas]

SageTV has been around how many years now? Yet they are still adding DVR/PVR features and tweaking the experience. Obviously, DVR/PVR is a massive and difficult undertaking, that I don't think the media boys really even appreciate.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

No they are different approaches. XBMC functions great and the core is pretty solid. They were originally written just to mod the first xbox game consoles and it grew from there. The developer had the tools before v7 btw they didn't have the new animation system or the plugins system but the tools have been there for developers all along.

I have to agree if they add pvr function and get a extender that carried the core function they will be a hard one to beat.

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

Have you used xmbc? It is actually very functional and IMHO one of the easiest and best metadata fetchers out there.

My point was that SageTV gets it right from the beginning. They started with a server and client model with PVR as the core functionality. And over time, they added pictures, music, video, and online content support. Then they added plugins manager and skins/themes. Today, SageTV is very robust and it is more than just a PVR system, however they always stay focus on delivering the best PVR experience. There are infinite room for improvements, but it helps that they did everything the right way from the beginning. And they know who their users are, and listen to the users, that speaks volume for the company.

As for the user base, it is hard to compare a free product to a commercial product. I had XBMC on my modded Xbox many years ago and I have it installed on my PC. But it was just something to tinker with for a little bit, it never get used beyond that in the household, so I don't consider myself an XBMC user. And I can imagine that is the case for a lot of people who tried XBMC, just to mess with but never incorporate it in the household the way many of us did with SageTV. I really doubt XBMC will change because they don't get our needs. SageTV does.

Heck, I think the Boxee software is better than XBMC.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

My point was that SageTV gets it right from the beginning. They started with a server and client model with PVR as the core functionality. And over time, they added pictures, music, video, and online content support. Then they added plugins manager and skins/themes. Today, SageTV is very robust and it is more than just a PVR system, however they always stay focus on delivering the best PVR experience. There are infinite room for improvements, but it helps that they did everything the right way from the beginning. And they know who their users are, and listen to the users, that speaks volume for the company.

As for the user base, it is hard to compare a free product to a commercial product. I had XBMC on my modded Xbox many years ago and I have it installed on my PC. But it was just something to tinker with for a little bit, it never get used beyond that in the household, so I don't consider myself an XBMC user. And I can imagine that is the case for a lot of people who tried XBMC, just to mess with but never incorporate it in the household the way many of us did with SageTV. I really doubt XBMC will change because they don't get our needs. SageTV does.

Heck, I think the Boxee software is better than XBMC.

To each their own . I love sagetv don't get me wrong and use it exclusively throughout the house, but pvr function won't be a stumbling block for xmbc. With sigma and some of their partners pvr should be a done well on xbmc.

[Nelbert]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

SageTV has been around how many years now? Yet they are still adding DVR/PVR features and tweaking the experience. Obviously, DVR/PVR is a massive and difficult undertaking, that I don't think the media boys really even appreciate.

Except the media boys aren't intending to write a PVR/DVR. They're going to leave the people who do that to do it well, and provide an api for the dvr boys to interface into the media system.
I think saying they don't appreciate the task ahead is being a little naive, this is something that started as POC in the Google Summer of Code 2008, so it's been maturing in the background for a few years now.
Some of the devs involved have been working with pvr software on linux for a while. Ubuntu VDR guys, myth tv guys. This isn't so much xbmc devs saying we'd like to do pvr now, this is more like pvr guys going we'd like to front our backend with xmbc.

Myth, VDR, MS, Sage, Dreambox/Dbox2 etc can concentrate on the PVR/DVR side, and not worry about trying to incorporate half-arsed music/picture interface add-ons. The media boys will concentrate on the media playback, music management, scraping catalogue, consumer friendly eye candy side that they're good at.

What shouldn't be a big leap is for an OEM to take a pvr api enabled hardware solution and add WMC7 as a backend, or an easy to install Myth Server or a SageTV server.

Whether sage, wmc7, xbmc etc are free or commercial doesn't really matter to consumers. Its how easy it works out the box, both for setup and use, availability and cost that will win. Everyone in the PVR/DVR/Media player market needs to get that sorted. At the moment a £200 pvr and a £100 media player are the simplest route for typical end users.

It's not a 1 box solution, not a central server with thin clients, but guess what: they don't care if it works out the box.

I do like sage tv, but it's a better replacement for my TViX than it is for my DVB-T/DVB-S2 receivers.