SageTV's biggest weekness?

[wayner]

In the last few weeks I have started to play around with online video services like Netflix, Hulu, ESPN3, etc. While you can access these services through Save via the PlayOn plugin, the attractiveness of the UI is not great and there are other drawbacks, such as no HD.

In contrast many of these services work quite well on WinMCE, at least on a PC. IMHO this is the only achilles heel of Sage as it would be great to be able to get everything through one device - that device being a Sage Extender.

Anyone else agree?

[mayamaniac]

I think most would say lack of official cablecard support is the biggest weakness, but like the PlayOn plugin, at least the SageMCTuner/SageDCT is an alternative.

I think SageTV can easily add Netflix support, I'm not sure why they haven't or what is stopping them. Netflix seems to want to be freely on every device possible. Hulu on the other hand, they seem to be stricter on what device can access their content.

[bits]

I am not sure it is their biggest weakness but it is a weakness.

Lately I have been thinking more about canceling CableTV and turning in my STBs. The plan would be to continue watching and recording OTA and use Netflix/Hulu/ect for the rest. If Sage had a better UI and better performance for Netflix/Hulu/ect it would be a slam dunk. Cancel Cable and go with Sage/OTA.

But the quality and the UI of Sages Online stuff is not really usable on a full time basis. Hence, I would need to either go with a Roku or AppleTV or something like that.

What a great experience it would be to have it all in one package! IMHO Sage comes the closest to this ideal!

I suppose Sage+AppleTV is still a pretty cheap option in comparison to my monthly cable bill.

[reggie14]

It depends on what you mean by a weakness. Are you comparing Sage to other DVRs in general, or just to other PC-based DVRs?

Compared to other DVRs in general, the cost and complexity of SageTV setups are Sage's major weaknesses. There's relatively few people I can recommend Sage to because of that.

Compared to other PC-based DVRs (specifically, Media Center), a lack of CableCard support is a weakness. I think that's actually a slightly bigger deal than a lack of Netflix support, just because blu-ray players with Netflix support are so common now. In comparison, all of my friends that used Sage were scared off when they had to move to digital TV (either for HD support or because the cable company went all digital).

Even with the updates in v7, I still think the UI is pretty bad. I'm not convinced that's really holding it back that much, but I certainly hope we'll see another major update on the UI front soon.

I'm not sure how easy it would be for Sage to add either Netflix support or CableCard support. I think the main thing holding back Netflix support is Netflix's requirement for the expected size of a market for a device. Sage isn't going to be able to sell 50,000 extenders, which I think it roughly what the current requirement is. CableCard obviously has DRM and potentially certification issues.

I've thought about canceling cable like bits, but Netflix/Hulu support wouldn't quite be good enough. I would also want to be able to buy/rent episodes of new TV shows that aren't available on Netflix or Hulu. And I really don't want to give Apple even more money, since I think they have terrible business practices, which is problematic because the AppleTV is the only device that really even comes close to giving me that ability.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Even with the updates in v7, I still think the UI is pretty bad. I'm not convinced that's really holding it back that much, but I certainly hope we'll see another major update on the UI front soon.

It's costly to do a good UI for non-technical users. I don't think developers or tech support people can design good UIs - they just lack empathy.

[jptheripper]

Having been through Replaytv, tivo, beyondtv, wmc, and mediaportal, sagetv easily has the best UI. It makes sense, and is very clean.

I think the weakness would be the DIY required. The HD300 is the perfect frontend, i would love to see them market a perfect backend. IE a WHS or linux server with cards built in and expandable storage. While the variety of sources is a problem (maybe different models for cable or satellite) i really think it would make it more "commercial".

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stevech

It's costly to do a good UI for non-technical users. I don't think developers or tech support people can design good UIs - they just lack empathy.

I don't think the problem is a lack of empathy. I think its more a matter of UI work can be incredibly time consuming and expensive, and it might be difficult to justify spending that much time and money. Every time I talk to HCI folks about UI design, they always say observed user testing by trained experts is the way to go. I think you'd be surprised how much time Microsoft spends testing the Windows/Office interfaces with users. They'll bring in 50-100 users to test a few different versions of a single element of the interface, like a single window that might not pop up very often.

To be fair, it was probably an exaggeration to say the current U is "pretty bad." I struggle with it occasionally, and I watch my girlfriend struggle daily, but its still much better than Dish Network's DVR UI and Comcast's. I kind of live TiVo's, but I haven't used it much.

[jptheripper]

As a developer, I am constantly bombarded by users that want the app to

1. Do More
2. Less Buttons
3. Don't change anything ever.

Basically, impossible demands.

Its how i feel about the feedback for v7. Users want more functionality (colossus, cablecard, netflix, plugins, etc) but they want a simpler interface, and even still it has to look exactly like v6. M$ has shot themselves in the foot supporting too many prior version.

I wish, every day as a developer, i could say: new version is 3.1. Every other version has been forceably disabled. Upgrade or uninstall.

dare to dream.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by jptheripper

As a developer, I am constantly bombarded by users that want the app to

1. Do More
2. Less Buttons
3. Don't change anything ever.

Basically, impossible demands.

Its how i feel about the feedback for v7. Users want more functionality (colossus, cablecard, netflix, plugins, etc) but they want a simpler interface, and even still it has to look exactly like v6. M$ has shot themselves in the foot supporting too many prior version.

I agree that a lot of complaints go that way, although I think one of the long threads that started just after the v7 beta was publicly released had some much better critiques than just "do more with less buttons."

Certainly Microsoft's backward compatibility has come at a cost, though I'm not sure its been that much of an issue on the UI front. I give the Microsoft Office team a lot of credit for Office 2007. They had to know that the massive UI changes were going to be incredibly unpopular in the short term, but they decided to push it out anyway because their user testing showed that in the long term it was the right move. I think too many software companies let bad user interfaces linger on just because their current user base got used to working around the problems with it.

Originally Posted by jptheripper

I wish, every day as a developer, i could say: new version is 3.1. Every other version has been forceably disabled. Upgrade or uninstall.

In that case you better be awfully sure your new version doesn't introduce any new problems. That's why IT departments are so careful about updating to new versions.

[jptheripper]

Originally Posted by reggie14

In that case you better be awfully sure your new version doesn't introduce any new problems. That's why IT departments are so careful about updating to new versions.

Thats why i am a developer, and not a manager .

TO be honest, i would rather have a new version, with new bugs, and active support, than an old version. But that is just me. I understand others don't agree.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by jptheripper

TO be honest, i would rather have a new version, with new bugs, and active support, than an old version. But that is just me. I understand others don't agree.

On my home systems I agree, where there isn't much of a threat of a software incompatibility posing a big problem for me. What's the worst that could happen? Even if there is a problem I can always revert to the previous night's backup.

At work it is a different story. There are a handful of custom applications that I run that are business-critical. If one of those stops working I may not be in trouble immediately, but I will be in a couple weeks. Most of those are slowly moving to web apps, where compatibility problems seem to occur less frequently, but there are still some Windows apps I need.

If our IT department pushed out a new version of software, a patch, or even a configuration change, that results in one of those programs not working, my workplace will be in serious trouble. I can't just go in and restore yesterday's backup like I would at home (and even if I could, there would be a couple thousand other people that wouldn't be able to).

[mistergq]

I actually agree that this is the biggest weakness. Cablecard has an alternative, HD PVR/HD Colossus. Until I know cablecard supports VOD, that will be the only feature that will make me want to switch from Hauppauge solution.

What would make the SageTV solution perfect would be Netflix/Hulu/Amazon support. Of course, my BluRay player as well as my Xbox360 have these support, so I have an alternative which I am okay with, not 100% happy with.

Truth be told, I am very happy with the way my system works now. Everything has come together pretty well. There are little things I want such as Netflix integration, but nothing that will make me search out a new product, at this time.

[ccsmoke]

I think Sage's weakness is the market itself. With so many streamers and tablets coming to the market, it's hard for people to choose and many don't give Sage a shot. With HP's acquiring Palm and everybody coming out with their own OS's (HP/PalmOS, Google/Andoid, Apple/Itunes, etc) and app store.

With Multi OS's and lack of industry standand....You Tube going to WebM, Flash vs HTML5...No Drm vs multiple versions of DRMs, and the different rules that come with various DRMs, it just looks to be a ngihtmare for a developer to support.

Yes, native Netflix would be cool, but I really like the DRM-free media aspect that Sage offers. With Comcast gunning for Netflix, I think they will lose some of their content specifically the Stars deal that they got so cheap. Comcast will make sure that this wont be the case when it comes due again.

As many tablets out on the market, there probably as many DRMs. and come and go faster than most expect. Play4Sure, Windows Media DRM, PlayReady is an example of Microsoft's inability to make sure that they are forward and backward compatibility with equipment...but it's a good cash cow for them.

[wayner]

In starting this thread I meant Sage's biggest weakness vs Win MC and other complex alternatives in the future since there is a definite trend towards online streaming. I know the complexity is a mojor issue but there is no gettingg around that for the very complex stuff that those of us on the (b)leading edge are trying to do.

My main TV room has a HD200, Xbox and HTPC. The HTPC is several years old and runs Win MC but it was hardly ever used until I started getting into Netflix and Hulu. In an ideal world you would only have one source and that would be a Sage Extender. I currently have 5 HD200s and I will shortly be buying a HD300 to add to the collection - I don't want to also be buying Xboxes and/or BR players for that many locations.

I didn't mention CableCard since the HD-PVRs are an acceptable alternative with no DRM, no matter how well Sage supported CCs you would always have the DRM issue. And since I live in Canada where no major cable companies will give you a CC then this isn't even an option for me. Theoretically I shouldn't be able to get Hulu, Netflix US, etc but that is fairly easily surmounted with a VPN or similar service

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by wayner

In an ideal world you would only have one source and that would be a Sage Extender. I currently have 5 HD200s and I will shortly be buying a HD300 to add to the collection - I don't want to also be buying Xboxes and/or BR players for that many locations.

You would rather run to your equipment closet to stick a disc in the server?

Given that the HD300 does not have a Blu-Ray slot in it, then I don't see the advantage in integrating Netflix playback into the extender, since (a) I would still want a Blu-Ray or DVD player at each TV to play discs, (b) that player will probably have Netflix built in, and (c) even if the extender had it too, I'd still have to reboot into standalone mode to access it.

If there's going to be native Netflix integration in Sage, it belongs in the server software, where it can be accessed seamlessly from any client (PC or extender) without leaving the Sage UI. For all its flaws, PlayOn accomplishes this. Unless a native solution can be at least as seamless as PlayOn, it's not worth doing in my opinion.

[wayner]

You still use discs? That is so 1997!

We rarely use discs in my house - when I do get new discs they get ripped to the server and played on extenders.

The future does not include physical media.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by wayner

I didn't mention CableCard since the HD-PVRs are an acceptable alternative with no DRM, no matter how well Sage supported CCs you would always have the DRM issue.

Meh, for how most people seem to use their Sage setups, I really don't understand why people are so concerned about DRM. I know, I know, stanger says if you can go without comskip you might as well get a Moxi, but I don't completely agree with that. Besides, you're certainly not going to see streaming services without DRM. Digital music purchases may be DRM free, but streaming music services (and all-you-can-eat subscriptions) are still DRMed.

Anway, I think saying the HD-PVR is an acceptable alternative to CC support is like saying PlayOn is an acceptable alternative to real Netflix support. It works for the most part, but isn't an ideal solution.

I certainly see your point about streaming video being the future, but in my opinion, right now its mostly just a nice little add-on. So, for me its fine that I can really only access it on my main TV (with PlayOn being an option for my others in a pinch).

Honestly, I think once video streaming is a truly viable option, Sage will be obsolete. What's the point of a DVR when you can just stream whatever you want in an instant? There will probably be some sort of transition period where streaming is a good alternative to cable/satellite, but for various reasons you might still want to record OTA stuff (e.g., maybe bandwidth caps, or maybe video quality). But I suspect that transition period will be short. I also think we're a ways off from that. Once streaming really starts picking up as an alternative to cable I think we'll see other forces slow it down. Bandwidth caps will instituted and more closely enforced, as cable Internet/TV providers see their revenues fall and costs increase. Content creators will increase licensing fees, forcing subscription rates up. The big networks will probably have to protect their affiliates by finding some way to discourage streaming.

As a side note, I have a hard time seeing how the move away from the all-you-can-eat model of cable TV and satellite to streaming is going to be good cost-wise for heavy TV-watchers. I think we'll see pricing tied more to consumption than it is now.

In any event, I think cablecard (and its replacement, if there is one) are more viable options for inclusion in SageTV. The big streaming players (and digital video providers), Netflix, Hulu, and Apple don't need Sage. Maybe Amazon does, as they struggle to stay relevant against iTunes, but I think even then Sage is mostly in the noise for them.

Also, I disagree that "leading-edge" stuff has to be complex and difficult to use. I don't think SageTV is any more bleeding-edge than Apple products, yet they do a good job of making things pretty simple. I think just inclusion of cablecard alone could lead to less complex and more reliable systems.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Meh, for how most people seem to use their Sage setups, I really don't understand why people are so concerned about DRM. I know, I know, stanger says if you can go without comskip you might as well get a Moxi, but I don't completely agree with that. Besides, you're certainly not going to see streaming services without DRM. Digital music purchases may be DRM free, but streaming music services (and all-you-can-eat subscriptions) are still DRMed.

Netflix is (arguably) DRMed as well but Sage putting DRM in the actual video files is a whole different story and would be required for a full implementation of CC. I could live with reasonable DRM, such as only being allowed to play on my LAN and not being able to take it with me, but since when has DRM been reasonable?

[voidpt]

Originally Posted by wayner

... I could live with reasonable DRM, such as only being allowed to play on my LAN and not being able to take it with me, but since when has DRM been reasonable?

Couldn't agree more. That is my biggest fear in the future. If/when the majority of content consumers gets locked into DRM'ed video streaming solutions, and the "open" air/cable/satellite gets marginalized. Then the real ugly face of DRM /content owners / shareholders will show. If the forced playback of trailers on Blu-ray annoy someone a little now, I shudder to imaging the creativity they will show to force commercials and other stuff down our DRM'ed playback. In short, we will not be in control of the play/fwd/rwd/skip buttons anymore. We just press "I'm here", they will force us to watch whatever contents in their preferred order. Probably matched to our viewing habits / age / gender and some maximize profit formula.

Yeah, know I'm being pessimistic But I see this in so many areas when shareholders get the possibility to impose stuff that gets them more ROI without being penalized. ROI is king, and f' our customers, they have no choice anyway

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by wayner

Netflix is (arguably) DRMed as well but Sage putting DRM in the actual video files is a whole different story and would be required for a full implementation of CC. I could live with reasonable DRM, such as only being allowed to play on my LAN and not being able to take it with me, but since when has DRM been reasonable?

How is Netflix not DRMed? I think they use PlayReady DRM in most devices. DRM is apparently the hold up for a Netflix app on Android. Rumor has it only new Android phones using a certain Qualcomm chipset will be able to stream video.

I think Steam is a pretty good example of DRM that many people actually like. iTunes DRM itself isn't that bad either, though I find the iTunes store repulsive due to Apple's business practices.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with Microsoft's PlayReady DRM in Media Center is probably that there's no mechanism for sharing stuff to different computers, just extenders. Other than that it seems OK. I'm sure others will be concerned about things like the broadcast flag, but since I've lost a lot more recordings over the last couple years due to HD-PVR lock-ups than there have been accidentally-marked TV shows with the broadcast flag, that's not a major concern of mine.

Well, I guess there's also the problem with comskip too, but I'm not too concerned about that either.