SageTV's biggest weekness?

[oddjob]

Netflix is on my TV, dvd player, iphone, WD harddrive.. its on everything..
I would start with Netflix as a given, must be included with Sagetv software. Cablecard support is the desireable item

[panteragstk]

I like this thread because it gets people's opinions out in the open. I hope we don't make this an argument though.

Having said that, I think the major weakness now would be the integration of the streaming services because that is really the only thing missing imho. CableCard to me is pointless because of the DRM tied to it. If I could record anything on my server and distribute it to extenders/clients with no issues then I'd say it is worth it (that and if the cable company options in my area weren't horrible). If you don't (or can't) use cable/fios then cablecard does nothing for the satellite crowd. Then the HD-PVR is the only option. I'm hoping that AllVid will actually become the new standard and SageTV wants to support it (which we all know they will). I think that is really the reason for sage not paying attention to cablecard right now. AllVid could be live in a year if everyone got on board (won't happen though). Also, for GoogleTV to reaman relevant they need AllVid to work. Plus it with streaming being the future it helps cable/satellite remain relevant as well by the ability to integrate into numerous devices.

Google has supported the AllVid proposal,[6] stating that "Google supports an all-video (“AllVid”) solution like the one put forth in the NOI. Consumers would be well-served by having such an inexpensive universal adapter available at retail, which would feature an easy-to-use, common interface, and employ nationwide interoperability standards to connect to televisions, digital video recording devices (“DVRs”), and other smart video devices. These navigation devices effectively would separate the network interface from the device functionality, making video more “portable” across platforms and devices."

As for the UI debate. I'd like to see what you guys think is a good UI. I've use Media center since it came out and it looks very dated and boring to me. Boxee and XBMC are nice, but are still not that great. So, what is a good UI?

[panteragstk]

I just thought of something else. I understand everyone not liking drm for the obvious drawbacks. What would you think if it worked this way? You have a sage server licence key. That key is what all the drm on your content on your server. As long as the files with drm reside on the same system as the server licence you can distribute them to any sagetv device connected to that server including placeshifter. That way if you had to reinstall windows because of a crash or an upgrade it wouldn't be an issue because the drm is tied to your key that will never change.

Thoughts?

[Skirge01]

The issue there is when the wife or I go on a business trip and want to take along some shows for the plane or in the hotel. Combine the Placeshifter issues with HD-PVR content with the crappy internet service we have and copying the files to a laptop or portable drive is the only option. This would negate that ability.

The second issue I see is that if I move to a different software solution (heaven forbid, right?), I can't simply import the recordings to the new software. This was my issue when my Tivos or DirecTV DVRs died and needed to be replaced.

Finally, DirecTV still has a 24 hour limit (from the start of recording) on their PPV events (live events for sure, not certain about other content), which was the point that finally pushed me over the edge. I'm assuming that your scenario would still allow them to enforce that deadline.

[PLUCKYHD]

Neftlix has been beat in the ground and discussed in many forums hey they require a certian number of user base to get neflix (100k is what I remember). So I wouldn't be so quick to blame sagetv for lack of netflix they point it out right in their agreement. I don't know how many users sagetv has but it doesn't touch that.

As for UI with playon diamon integrates with playon pretty dang well tv and movies, you are still limited to the troubles with playon (ie no hd) but still.

pluckyh

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

they require a certian number of user base to get neflix (100k is what I remember).

To clarify, Netflix requires that "to get into the program you have to explain how you'll get 100k unique subscriber activations within the first year". But yes, 100k is the last number I was told by a Netflix representative. It could be higher now.

I really don't like playon (low quality, subscription, etc.) -- though I've been thinking about revisiting the old loop-back hack. Add a HD-PVR as a loop back device and the quality should be pretty good.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by brainbone

To clarify, Netflix requires that "to get into the program you have to explain how you'll get 100k unique subscriber activations within the first year". But yes, 100k is the last number I was told by a Netflix representative. It could be higher now.

I really don't like playon (low quality, subscription, etc.) -- though I've been thinking about revisiting the old loop-back hack. Add a HD-PVR as a loop back device and the quality should be pretty good.

I got lucky and my new samsung tv has neftlix and hulu plus built in doesn't require me changing inputs and we use it allot more than I thought.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

The issue there is when the wife or I go on a business trip and want to take along some shows for the plane or in the hotel. Combine the Placeshifter issues with HD-PVR content with the crappy internet service we have and copying the files to a laptop or portable drive is the only option. This would negate that ability.

The second issue I see is that if I move to a different software solution (heaven forbid, right?), I can't simply import the recordings to the new software. This was my issue when my Tivos or DirecTV DVRs died and needed to be replaced.

Finally, DirecTV still has a 24 hour limit (from the start of recording) on their PPV events (live events for sure, not certain about other content), which was the point that finally pushed me over the edge. I'm assuming that your scenario would still allow them to enforce that deadline.

This is where the limitation would come in. It can't be perfect. At this point only time will tell.

Neftlix has been beat in the ground and discussed in many forums hey they require a certian number of user base to get neflix (100k is what I remember). So I wouldn't be so quick to blame sagetv for lack of netflix they point it out right in their agreement. I don't know how many users sagetv has but it doesn't touch that.

As for UI with playon diamon integrates with playon pretty dang well tv and movies, you are still limited to the troubles with playon (ie no hd) but still.

pluckyh

True enough, but I really am speaking for streaming video in general not just netflix. We as sage users have the same problem android users have.

I've been reading on the playon forums that they are "working on hd, but not enough people have the capability to transcode HD files realtime" or some such nonsense. They say they could implement hd service soon, but there isn't a need for it. Now if playon enabled the use of hd streams then we'd be in business.

http://www.playon.tv/forum/feedback/...support-needed

[wayner]

Originally Posted by brainbone

To clarify, Netflix requires that "to get into the program you have to explain how you'll get 100k unique subscriber activations within the first year". But yes, 100k is the last number I was told by a Netflix representative. It could be higher now.

I wonder how all of these devices, like DVD players, etc. could ever hope to get 100k subs for Netflix?

Originally Posted by brainbone

I really don't like playon (low quality, subscription, etc.) -- though I've been thinking about revisiting the old loop-back hack. Add a HD-PVR as a loop back device and the quality should be pretty good.

That's a very good idea but there are drawbacks. I have tried the loopback thing with an analog tuner and the 2-3 second delay between action and response drives you nuts. And I think the delay would be even worse with the HD-PVR. The other problem is that how can you do this with a remote control - do you need an RF control that will work throughout your house? It might be nice if you could just use your iPad (or similar) device to initiate the stream.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

I've been reading on the playon forums that they are "working on hd, but not enough people have the capability to transcode HD files realtime" or some such nonsense. They say they could implement hd service soon, but there isn't a need for it.

Let's start inundating them with requests! How much CPU would you need for this? It sounds like something that would work well with a SandyBridge CPU since the onboard GPU can do video transcoding.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

I've been reading on the playon forums that they are "working on hd, but not enough people have the capability to transcode HD files realtime" or some such nonsense.

I just noticed - that quote was from Sep 2009, 18 months ago. Surely things have improved since then!

Here is a quote from last December:

A passmark CPU score of 3500 will be more than adequate for HD support. And more of our users now have computers that could support HD -- the number has been growing significantly over time.

We're mainly waiting for many of the content sites to actually stream in HD quality. A tiny minority of online videos from Hulu, Netflix and others are actually in HD quality. They are often 720 x 400, at best, in the browser players.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

I'm hoping that AllVid will actually become the new standard and SageTV wants to support it (which we all know they will). I think that is really the reason for sage not paying attention to cablecard right now. AllVid could be live in a year if everyone got on board (won't happen though). Also, for GoogleTV to reaman relevant they need AllVid to work. Plus it with streaming being the future it helps cable/satellite remain relevant as well by the ability to integrate into numerous devices.

I don't see how you can complain about CableCard being pointless because of DRM in one sentence, and call for AllVid in the next. The FCC has pretty much already said DRM would be important. Some CE companies seem to be calling for DTCP-IP, though that wouldn't address DRM on computers. PlayReady is probably the the obvious choice there. That's why I think CableCard support in Sage could be a good stepping stone to AllVid.

Plus, AllVid being live in a year? Even if all the companies involved were motivated I don't see how that would be realistic. It took the industry 6 years to ship CableCards after being ordered to by the FCC, and another 2 years before the first particularly useful device came out (the TiVo Series3 HD-DVR). AllVid seems quite a bit more complex and ambitious than CableCard, so I don't see how anything less than 5 years is remotely possible. Given that, I really wonder if AllVid would be arriving too late to be relevant.

Maybe I'll be surprised, but I think online streaming is really out of the control of Sage. They'd need to find a streaming provider that's interested in expanded service to a relatively small number of users. Netflix has been pretty aggressive in getting Netflix-capable devices out there, and the (apparent) fact that they're looking for ~100k users tells me Sage is way too small to get anyone's attention.

[peternm22]

Hasn't Popcorn Hour had Netflix for a year or two? I'd be surprised if they have 100k users.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by wayner

I wonder how all of these devices, like DVD players, etc. could ever hope to get 100k subs for Netflix?

Because they get counted as a whole for instance Panasonic says give us acces it goes on our TV,s Blu rays players etc etc not hard to reach 100k for companies like this. (ie they don't have to reach it per device just as a whole company) The biggest surprise to me is boxee but their software is free on the computer so it is easy for them to over inflate their numbers.

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by wayner

I have tried the loopback thing with an analog tuner and the 2-3 second delay between action and response drives you nuts. And I think the delay would be even worse with the HD-PVR.

True. The delay could be unbearable.

Originally Posted by wayner

The other problem is that how can you do this with a remote control

Same way Sage controls a STB -- though it does complicate implementation. The old Netflix plugin allowed you to control the Netflix web interface via the same remote you control SageTV with, before it was abandoned.

One positive of a loopback through an HD-PVR; you could "record" shows from your Netflix instant queue, allowing you to watch Netflix in HD "offline" -- however you would certainly be violating your Netflix terms and conditions, among other things.

Native support for Netflix in SageTV would be best, but I don't see it happening. (see: 100k.) However, I'm still interested in seeing how GoogleTV shapes up. As unimpressive as GoogleTV has been so far, a SageTV Client app for GoogleTV should give the same result as native support in SageTV.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by brainbone

Same way Sage controls a STB -- though it does complicate implementation. The old Netflix plugin allowed you to control the Netflix web interface via the same remote you control SageTV with, before it was abandoned.

Sage controls an STB by blasting IR signals or codes over firewire. How do you simulate navigating a web page using a mouse and/or keyboard on a web page, which is where Netflix would be running?

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

Because they get counted as a whole for instance Panasonic says give us acces it goes on our TV,s Blu rays players etc etc not hard to reach 100k for companies like this. (ie they don't have to reach it per device just as a whole company) The biggest surprise to me is boxee but their software is free on the computer so it is easy for them to over inflate their numbers.

I don't see why Sage couldn't make the same claim. It seems to me that the only ding I ever see against the HD300s relative to other media players, is that it can't stream Netflix. So, it stands to reason, that if Sage implemented Netflix, they would be able to compete against players like AppleTV, Roku, Boxee, etc. and could probably sell similar numbers of devices (assuming they could keep up with the manufacturing and possibly increased their distribution channels and advertising).

And, while there probably aren't 100,000 Sage users out there, I think most users have multiple licenses (Server, Client, Placeshifter, Extenders). If they could implement support for Netflix streaming across all of these platforms, that would certainly pump up their numbers.

On a related note, I wonder if the requirements are similar for other streaming services (Hulu, Amazon, etc.)?

I would be shocked if the folks at Sage aren't looking into all these options. If I were them, I would probably start with whatever streaming service had the lowest barrier to entry. I have to believe that adding any of these services to the HD300 would bring in lots of new customers, and many of those new customers might start out using them as stand-alone media players, but later expand into the full blown Sage Server + Extender solutions.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I don't see how you can complain about CableCard being pointless because of DRM in one sentence, and call for AllVid in the next. The FCC has pretty much already said DRM would be important. Some CE companies seem to be calling for DTCP-IP, though that wouldn't address DRM on computers. PlayReady is probably the the obvious choice there. That's why I think CableCard support in Sage could be a good stepping stone to AllVid.

Plus, AllVid being live in a year? Even if all the companies involved were motivated I don't see how that would be realistic. It took the industry 6 years to ship CableCards after being ordered to by the FCC, and another 2 years before the first particularly useful device came out (the TiVo Series3 HD-DVR). AllVid seems quite a bit more complex and ambitious than CableCard, so I don't see how anything less than 5 years is remotely possible. Given that, I really wonder if AllVid would be arriving too late to be relevant.

Maybe I'll be surprised, but I think online streaming is really out of the control of Sage. They'd need to find a streaming provider that's interested in expanded service to a relatively small number of users. Netflix has been pretty aggressive in getting Netflix-capable devices out there, and the (apparent) fact that they're looking for ~100k users tells me Sage is way too small to get anyone's attention.

The reason I said CableCard is pointless is because of the way the drm is implemented. For copy freely it would work, but if you wanted to watch HBO on an extender it won't happen, and you can't even record anything flagged copy never (correct me if I'm wrong). If AllVid was the same way it wouldn't benefit sage in any way, so I'm trying to be optimistic that it will be better. As for it taking 5 years I do agree. That is why after I said that it could only take a year I put that it wouldn't happen. We all know they will drag their feet as long as possible. In 5 years fewer and fewer people will even use cable or satellite services as streaming services get better and better, so that is why I'm hoping it doesn't take 5 years for AllVid because it will be useless by then. The sad fact is that the percentage of people AllVid (and CableCard for that matter) will benefit is very small. Tivo subscribers are probably the largest group with some using CableCard capable TV's when they were made. The worst thing about that small percentage is that if AllVid fails then us sage users will be stuck using hacks or workarounds (like the HD-PVR) to get any type of pay tv into our pc's. With the threat (and I think that is all it is) of the analog hole being closed the HD-PVR could become useless which would be the near death of sage. I think the world of DIY DVR/HTPC's is looking grim if something like AllVid doesn't happen the right way at the right time. How many sage users would have given up sage if there had been no HD-PVR?

[wayner]

Originally Posted by reggie14

It took the industry 6 years to ship CableCards after being ordered to by the FCC, and another 2 years before the first particularly useful device came out (the TiVo Series3 HD-DVR).

I thought TVs with CC slots were somewhat useful, and appeared before the TiVo. At least that negated the need for STBs at all TVs.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

The reason I said CableCard is pointless is because of the way the drm is implemented. For copy freely it would work, but if you wanted to watch HBO on an extender it won't happen, and you can't even record anything flagged copy never (correct me if I'm wrong).

From what I understand, shows like HBO are marked copy-once. That stuff can still be played back on extenders, but you can't play it on any other PCs than what it was recorded on.

Also, it's my understanding that very little is marked copy never. PPV and VOD stuff might be. And, there's been one or two times when something has accidentally been marked copy-never (which was clearly an accident, given it was something stupid like American Gladiators).

Originally Posted by panteragstk

As for it taking 5 years I do agree. That is why after I said that it could only take a year I put that it wouldn't happen.

OK. I'm just not convinced that even if cable companies were behind the idea that it could get done in less than 5 years. The FCC isn't going to move forward on an expensive regulation during an economic downturn without a lot of deliberation. It's clear that cable companies would want to maintain some amount of control over the interface so people could still get their PPV/VOD content. So, I think even if the major players agreed on the main points, there's still a lot of smaller issues the FCC would have to decide.

There isn't a specification for the device, just some general thoughts on how it would work. Even if companies were basically on the same page I suspect the spec alone would take a year or more to flush out. That's not dragging feet- that's just the standards process.

The spec would have various interoperability and security components. They would need to stand up a certification program to test those things. So, they would need to write test methods, find qualified labs, and develop reference implementations. Again, that's a time consuming process too (and one that can't really be started until after the spec is finalized).

Then once there are actual certified gateways and navigation devices they would need to be rolled out to customers. Comcast wouldn't one day buy 40 million gateways (for $100 or more a piece) and install them overnight.

Originally Posted by panteragstk

How many sage users would have given up sage if there had been no HD-PVR?

I kind of wonder how many previous customers already have. As I said in this or another thread, all of my real-world friends stopped using Sage when they found out they were going to need an STB to record TV (either to get HD or because the cable company moved all-digital).

I suspect that AllVid will disappear. I don't know how the FCC is organized, but I do know federal agencies are freaking out over the current budget crisis. Most are expecting cuts and possible hiring freezes. That's going to limit new projects at government agencies. I also think the political climate isn't very friendly to prescriptive government regulation like AllVid, particularly when it comes to the FCC doing the regulating. And for the new regulations that they might do, I think cable TV is going to be awfully low on their priorities list. They'll be focusing their efforts on the National Broadband Plan.