A late adopter for HD with decisions to make

[stevech]

Long time user of Sage. Three SD tuners (Hauppauge). Two MVP extenders.
Now into HD, deciding if I can / should go with Sage into HD, cost effectively.

Is there a Sage-compatible tuner that can take a cableCARD from TimeWarner (as they provide cableCARDs for TiVo users).

I would use Sage's (only?) HD extender, or a HTPC to drive HDMI to my new Vizio 42" TV.

The Hauppauge HD-PVR + TimeWarner cable box, if it even has component output, sounds to me to be a risky hassle, needs IR stuff. I am quite tech savvy, but is this really going to be reliable, good WAF? She likes Sage, but is intolerant of faults. Quite a few postings here on the HD-PVR's problems.
And I need a TimeWarner box too for viewing live, without competing with Sage.
Does Sage sort out NOT missing recording a show because there is but 1 HD tuner (and some SDef tuners?)

Versus going with TiVo (too expensive) or TimeWarner's clunky DVR for HD.

advice on low risk route to HD.

At the moment, I have only analog cable, no box.

[vexhold]

In regards to the HD-PVR, Don't weigh the product too heavy on other people posting about the bad things. People like myself have owned 2 from the day they were released with no problems at all. We just don't post about it working.

As far as the CableCard tuner, I have not heard of one.

[SWKerr]

Is there a Sage-compatible tuner that can take a cableCARD from TimeWarner (as they provide cableCARDs for TiVo users).

Not really. There are now two CableCard Tuners but the are expensive ($400-$250) and setting them up is a bit of a hack. Even then you can only record what is flagged as copy freely by TimeWarner so what you can get just depends on you provider.

I would check to see what you can get in HD on the Vizio straight from cable. You can probably add Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 and get those clear QAM channels in HD as well as the analog stations with this tuner. At about $110 the HVR-2250 is a good way to get some HD (Generally networks) and still keep your analog cable.

You will still need a HD-PVR or Colossus to record HD from the cable box. The HD-PVR is mature and pretty stable at this point but you could still have problems depending on you particular setup. That is really the case with any tuner. What you read on the forums is just the people having problems, people don't tend to come here and post about just how great things are just when they need help.

HTPC vs Extender.
I like the HTPC myself because it gives me more options with online content like Netflix and Hulu, plus I can also sit on the couch and surf the web etc.
The Extender will certainly be easier to setup and quality playback is almost certain. On an HTPC getting perfect playback can be challenging for some people especially if they don't have newer hardware and software. Also getting the HTPC to sleep and wake up properly and setting up the remote to do everything just the way you want it can also be complicated. Noise from the PC can also be an issue.

Still if you plan to buy new hardware anyway for the server I would start with the server next to the TV with the tuner cards and HDMI into the TV. You can always move it later and add the Extender if you don't like the results. This way you are also not messing with your current setup while you transition.

You will need more hard disk space regardless of a new PC. HD files sizes are much larger.

First decide of you need a new PC. If yes add a HVR-2250 and get Sage working directly on the Vizio with HDMI. You will have limited HD content to start but can easily expand from there.

If you don't want to add a new PC then still get the HVR-2250 but also add the extender and at least some more Hard Disk space.

If you are going to make the change to HD I would probably start with a new Server myself but money is always a consideration.

[stevech]

@swKerr
Thanks very, very much.
I'll rule out cableCARD. Just don't get why TiVo can integrate cableCARDs and get 100% of the protected content that I would pay for, but Sage + xxx hardware cannot do the same. Just volume, I guess. TiVo's one-time and recurring cost is increasingly non-competitive with the cable companies' DVRs which seem now to have decent UIs. And I pay for a busted TiVo box post-warranty. I can legally put a 1TB disk on TiVo, not so cable box. Neither have a means for me to do backups.

We want Sage to record HD content from non-network sources, copy-protected, such as Discovery's channels. The copy-freely stuff on the cable is of no interest, with rare exceptions.

Is it as "simple" as this:
I don't think I want an HVR-2250 because most of the content I want to record is copy-protected/encrypted and the HVR-2250 cannot decrypt or use a cableCARD to do so. It's only useful for the rare recording of HD that's not protected. It's about $130.

Buy Hauppauge HD-PVR. It accepts 1080 resolution via component video. Can't use HDMI because of copy protection on that media. That's $190.

If I rent a TimeWarner cable box (no DVR), it WILL HAVE component video out? Wouldn't TImeWarner cable want to support ONLY HDMI so they can stop use of "rogue" DVRs (including Sage)?

So is this my scenario?
Rent TimeWarner cable box (no DVR) that DOES have component video out and some sort of audio.
Connect this to a Hauppauge HD-PVR.
Arrange an IR blaster (not sure how I do this) for Sage to operate the tuner. Is this a UIRT device or some such?
This gets us a one-tuner HD recorder under Sage.

Correct then: over $300 per tuner/PVR (!)

If I leave the two Standard Def tuners on Sage, will Sage arrange the recording schedules to try to record HD in priority to using one of the standard def tuners?

Am I on the right track? Is the HD-PVR and IR lash-up commonly used/reliable with Sage? (I hear only of the problems here on the forum)

TIA
steve

[panteragstk]

Sage has options to record hd only files if you want. You will have to use a blaster of some sort (uirt) and component out from the cable box. The box will have component as I've yet to see an hdmi only box. Even then HDMI is not always encrypted. There are some using hdmi on the colossus with dish and directv. As stated above you may have issues, but you need to understand that people aren't going to start "hey guys I have no issues whatsoever bye" posts.

[vexhold]

TWC could eliminate the use of Compnent connections on their set top boxes, but that woould alienate the people who dont have HDMI yet and want (close to HD) quality. There is talks of blocking the port, like they already do with HDMI, but that is not going anywhere fast.

I am assuming you get the 300/tuner by adding the cost of the set top box, tuner and IR device. This is the going price if you want HD, and is actually a heck of a bargain considering the cost you had to pay 3 years ago (pre HD-PVR).

I would stay away from IR blaster channel controlling. Depending on what set top box you end up getting, I would use either serial or USB, they are faster and more reliable.

As far as the mixing of standard tuners and the HD-PVR, SageTV is very robust in the way it allows you to controll what records and how it records. It is intelligent enough to pick and choose a schedule based on your hardware to give you what you want.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by vexhold

TWC could eliminate the use of Compnent connections on their set top boxes, but that woould alienate the people who dont have HDMI yet and want (close to HD) quality. There is talks of blocking the port, like they already do with HDMI, but that is not going anywhere fast.

I am assuming you get the 300/tuner by adding the cost of the set top box, tuner and IR device. This is the going price if you want HD, and is actually a heck of a bargain considering the cost you had to pay 3 years ago (pre HD-PVR).

I would stay away from IR blaster channel controlling. Depending on what set top box you end up getting, I would use either serial or USB, they are faster and more reliable.

As far as the mixing of standard tuners and the HD-PVR, SageTV is very robust in the way it allows you to controll what records and how it records. It is intelligent enough to pick and choose a schedule based on your hardware to give you what you want.

Reading the forum for some time, it looked to me that the only way to control the setTop Box is via IR or in some cases, Firewire. It is doable, right? What I need is what box type/model Sage can interface to. There are a couple of choices and I can press TimeWarner for what I need, or wait until one of those is returned - rather than just blindly taking what the offer. E.g., component-out is a MUST, since HDMI out would be copy protected.

If the box control must be via IR, how do I do that? UIRT? That's USB meaning the PC with sage is nearby - but the PC w/Sage at my home is far away.

Yeah, cost of an HD-PVR + HD Tuner is about $300, right? (HD300 is on top of these costs) Plus $9/mo for a DVR-less box. (DVR capable box is $29/mo).

I'll assume (!) that if I have show X as a favorite, I can say use HD if possible, but resort to analog if need be, for all the possible airings.

[SWKerr]

The benefit of something like the HVR-2250 would depend on your viewing habits. It will let you record up to two HD streams from Cable for all Clear QAM channels. Sage would use it before taking up the HD-PVR for those stations therefore making the HD-PVR available for the encrypted channels. This means the you can record NBC and FOX while at the same time watching HBO on the HD-PVR. There are also other single clear QAM tuners out there in the $40 range.

Most of the people I have setup get their network stations from an Antenna or Cable with a HDHomeRun or HVR-2250 and have just one HD-PVR for everything else. Because most pay channels seem to run stuff multiple times a week Sage will work the schedule to make it work with just one HD-PVR. Two is better of course but cost more. Most people I setup also seem to hold on to one more Cable\Sat box outside SageTV just for live TV. Later they usually add a tuner card to it once they trust the system.

I have added the new Colossus recently and it works over HDMI for my DirecTV boxes. People have had luck with HDMI on a lot of different boxes but it is hit and miss. The Colossus is not stable for all users right now so hard to recommend for someone worried about stability. The HD-PVR does take up more space but not a whole lot.

The Colossus and HD-PVR come with a Remote and IR blaster to change the channel. These are both compatible with SageTV. The problem with the HD-PVR blaster is that only one is supported per PC. This means that if\when you add another tuner card you will not be able to add another Hauppauge blaster. You will need to get a USB-UIRT ($50). The built in IR Blaster will work for the first tuner.

Even if you just add one HD-PVR you will need to address playback.
The Extender or the PC. An older PC will probably need a new video card to play back HD recording.

[stevech]

recording: I think I don't want a tuner because there's virtually no clear-QAM or copy-freely content we want to record. TImeWarner like others is marking everything no-copy except local broadcast stations. All HD we want is encrypted/copy protected. That drives me to getting a setTop box from TimeWarner, with component video to the HD-PVR. Does the HD-PVR have IR output to an emitter I place near the setTop box?

Playback would be an HD300 because the Sage Server is far away and I don't want another HTPC near the TV (maybe), but more over, the HD300 is supposed to be problem free as has been the MVP extender (more or less).

The cost of this adds up: HD-PVR + HD300 + monthly setTop. More if two tuners needed. I'd keep the analog tuners (until TimeWarner drops analog).

[Tiki]

To answer one of your earlier questions, yes Sage is smart enough to record a show on HD if it can, but fall back and record from one of the SD tuners if all your HD tuners are tied up. This assumes that your favorite is available on one of the SD channels that your SD tuners can access and that you have not set-up restrictions on your favorite to only record from the HD channel.

If you want to record HD channels from your cable box, you will need either a Hauppauge HD-PVR or a Hauppauge Colossus. Either way, you will need to install your cable box close to your PC. They don't necessarily need to be near your TV. If you will connect from your PC's video card to your TV, then you will want it close to the TV. If you will use an extender for playback, your PC (and cable box) can really be anywhere in the house.

If you want to playback HD direct from your PC, you will want a decent modern video card that is designed to offer hardware accelerated MPEG-2 and h.264 playback in HD. If using an extender, replace your MediaMVP with an HD300.

I haven't seen TWC's DVR, but I do have a Comcast DVR in one room of my house. It's terrible. It has very limited storage capacity, so can't store a lot of shows for later playback. It has a very poor user interface. It doesn't keep track of what you've watched, so will often record the same shows over and over. You can only watch what you've recorded on that one DVR (can't playback in another room using an extender or similar). The transport controls (FF, REW, SKIP) don't work as well as they do in Sage. No way to do things like ComSkip. It seems to be no more reliable than Sage (it locks up or forgets to record things on occasion). I have to power-cycle it more often than I re-boot my Sage server... The list could go on and on. On the plus side, it is probably cheaper than Sage.

[SWKerr]

Does the HD-PVR have IR output to an emitter I place near the setTop box?

Yes,
There is a long cord that runs from the HD-PVR to a tiny IR emitter that will need to be placed directly under the IR receiver on the cable box. I have generally taped it right on top of the IR receiver on the box with black electrical tape to bloc any unwanted IR activity.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by Tiki

I haven't seen TWC's DVR, but I do have a Comcast DVR in one room of my house. It's terrible. It has very limited storage capacity, so can't store a lot of shows for later playback. It has a very poor user interface. It doesn't keep track of what you've watched, so will often record the same shows over and over. .

I'm going to keep Standard Def Sage with two tuners going no matter. The debate is HD: The Time Warner Cable (TWC) DVRs of late seem OK except for storage capacity: It's some 45 hours of HD, they say (not sure of the mix of 720/1080). The eSATA port on the DVRs is now disabled (didn't used to be). The UI (the "mystro" version) seems fine, looking at my neighbors' here in San Diego. His parents have Comcast's DVR and he says it is comparatively very bad. TWC uses a mix of Scientific Atlanta 83xx (also was branded as "Cisco") and newer Samsung model xxx?. To get more capacity one can get the "whole house DVR" from TWC. It serves out metadata and files to TWC setTop boxes ($9/mo) on other TVs.

So the price of an encoder (HD-PVR?) and an HD-300 and (rent) of a non-DVR cable box to have HD in Sage is what I'm debating. Reliable channel changing of the setTop Box worries me. The SA units have firewire for control but that's not supported by Sage. Like the eSATA, TWC may disable FireWire. Don't know about the Samsung from TWC (the non-DVR version).

TiVo lets one use only a Western Digital eSATA box for more storage (at least they DO). But TiVo costs more than TWC and after warranty, I pay to replace it, even after paying $100 up front to own the box (or pay $30/yr for ext. warranty). The cableCARD is $9/mo on top of TiVo's fees. May I ignore a threat that TWC, as they expand their SDV (switched digital video) will find a way to eliminate cableCARDs? I sure wish Sage, like TiVo and Dish/Direct supported cableCARDs. I guess Sage doesn't have enough clout with all the different cable companies, much less International.

Per the Chief TV Watcher here (not me), losing (for HD) Sage's "Watched" and going to just record 1st-run-favorites and some manual-records is good enough. I think all these newer cable-Co DVRs do that.

So, I gotta stop analyzing and decide!

PS: Reading web sites, it looks like USB UIRT is kaput in terms of availability (was a one man shop, I guess), and the GIRDR folks did their own, called PIR-1 and promote it rather than USB UIRT. I really want one that uses RS232 or Ethernet because my Sage/HTPC and tuners are in the garage, not the LR. I have in the past used IR (IRman) over TV Coax gizmos; works OK but voltages cause glitches in RF/video. But now it has to be two-way.

[SWKerr]

USB-UIRTs appear to be in-stock. Maybe some resellers are having issues getting them. Don't know but have never heard this was an issue. I have two and they are great little devices.
http://www.usbuirt.com/

I used the USB-UIRT for awhile and never had an issue after I got it setup. I now use the DirecTV serial control and it has proved to be no more or less reliable.

Perhaps you should expand your evaluation to SAT as well. The Time Warner options for HD in my are suck. DirecTV has serial and network channel change options as well as whole house DVR. Might be worth a look.

[stevech]

Satellite... my brother has Direct TV, mostly because he has two homes, a large "boat", and a high-end RV/coach. I will re-look at satellite, but when I've looked in the past, it was more expensive and there's the ugly dish (I'm in a townhome).

Is it true that to live with their limited total bandwidth (as compared to cable TV) satellite uses higher compression and/or less than 1080, so the HD quality is less?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stevech

Is it true that to live with their limited total bandwidth (as compared to cable TV) satellite uses higher compression and/or less than 1080, so the HD quality is less?

Not really true. For starters, a DBS feed from a single satellite can carry more bandwidth than a cable spectrum can, and at least for Dish, I currently get 3 different sat feeds. They do carry a LOT more channels in that feed though. The advantage sat has over cable (which wasn't true perhaps back when you picked up that anecdote) is that since they completely control their whole system, with less 'standards' interference, they have been able to upgrade to H.264/AVC video compression, which is FAR superior to the MPEG-2 the cable companies are stuck with. My 5Mbps H.264 channels from Dish network look as good or better than the same channel using 12Mbps MPEG-2 from the cable.

They DO save space by encoding a fwe channels in 1440x1080, instead of the 1920 - but it is an imperceptible change.

[stevech]

How do people do RELIABLE channel changing of satellite boxes via Sage?
Is the IR output of the HD-PVR which is accepting the component video out from the Satellite box?

[Fuzzy]

I've never used a hauppauge blaster, and do know that they are limited to a single device per computer (driver limitation). I used a USB-UIRT for years with 3 cable boxes with not a single mis-tuned recording (seperate zoned emitters boxed in on the front of the STBs), then for another couple years with my Dish ViP-211's before modifying them with R-5000HD's. Never had a problem with the dish boxes either, even though I didn't use separate emitters (just a single bare USB-UIRT sitting on the shelf in front of them with 3 different IR settings for each box). I now tune them with the R-5000HD, which also works all the time.

[reggie14]

I've never used the HD-PVR IR blaster, but I did use the Hauppauge IR blaster with the HVR1600. It was actually quite reliable- it never had an error trying to change the channel. It was, however, a bit slower than I wanted. So, when I moved to HD STBs I made sure to get firewire boxes.

I suspect I have a problem with sgraphrecorder (which I use to record over firewire on one STB), but my boxes will lock up once or twice per month. That is, I stop being able to change the channels on the boxes until I power cycle them and/or unplug the firewire cable. My long-term plan is to get rid of my firewire recording STB and (hopefully) replace it with an HDHR Prime cable card tuner. That's not an option for the OP, since Time Warner copy protects most of their channels (Comcast only copy protects the premiums). If that doesn't work out, I'm hoping that the HD-PVRs (either the USB model or the Colossus) get a little more reliable. I'm still getting lockups every month or so on my HD-PVR.

[davephan]

You still haven't mentioned you system specs yet, such as the processor speed, number of cores, memory, disk, and operating system. If your computer is old and a slow single core, then upgrade might be needed.

Replacing the MVPs with HD-200 or HD-300 extenders will make a huge difference. The MVP has very lousy audio quality and poor video quality compared to the HD extenders. The MVP is much less reliable than the HD extenders too. The MVPs also playback only mpeg2 format. If you playback a different format, then the computer will have to transcode the video in to mpeg2 on-the-fly. If the computer does not have enough throughput, then you will have stuttering.

The HD recordings will take more disk space than SD recordings. About 8 - 9 gigs an hour with the 'great' quality setting for mpeg files. With TS format, it will take about 3.7 gigs an hour.

You could use a Hauppauge HD-PVR Colossus. It's true that some people have no trouble with the HD-PVR, but there are many people who do have at least occasional trouble. I had occasional HD-PVR trouble about every couple months. I switched to the Colossus and have no trouble. I don't think you'll ever find people with totally trouble free HD-PVR units will ever be willing to swap them with the people with intermittent HD-PVRs!

It sounds like you will need to get your HD content through the analog hole. So, you'll need to make sure that your set top box has three line component video. Either use a HD-PVR or Colossus.

If you can receive HD over the air, then you could also use the HVR-2250 or HDHomerun (dual tuner model). You'll want dual tuners, so don't waste your money with the HDHomerun single tuner model. The HVR-2250 requires a PCI-E X1 (or greater) slot. If you have an older system board, that card will not work. I have four tuners (two HVR-2250's) for over the air HD. I only have the Colossus for HD cable TV. Most of my recordings are on OTA HD channels.

You might also consider switching from cable to OTA HD plus Netflix. If you mainly watch movies, Netflix is a much better choice than cable/satellite. The movie selection on Netflix is far better than cable/satellite. Netflix requires PlayOn and Silverlight, both are not totally reliable, but fairly reliable. Silverlight quit working about once a month with Windows XP. Both are more reliable with Windows 7 64-bit, but did require one re-installation to fix a PlayOn problem.

I think the Tivo solution is very limited. I also heard that Tivo has pop-up ads, which would be annoying. You're also stuck with more monthly fees or a high priced one-time fee. The cable DVR is a lousy solution too. Comcast offered me one DVR for about $20 a month. The menus on the Comcast DVR were barbaric, crude, and the menu design look a couple decades old. I've read other forums where people have four Tivos in one room. They have to manually program the recordings for each Tivo. They complain about a lot of problems that could be avoided by 'centralizing' the recordings on one system like SageTV.

I recommend using USB-UIRT for changing channels on the set top boxes. You can control 3 set top boxes with only one USB-UIRT. More set top boxes could be controlled if the set top boxes have adjustable IR codes. The USB-UIRT may require some tweaking to get it to work reliably. After the USB-UIRT is configured, it is very reliable. The downside is the USB-UIRT is not as fast as firewire. You do not need speed if you are using it for recordings. If you do live channel surfing, then you need speed. The USB-UIRT gives you another important advantage. The USB-UIRT works with all the set top boxes. You will then have the freedom in the longer term to switch between service providers. If the service provider jacks up the price, you can switch to another provider. If you have only firewire, then you may be stuck with your high price provider. Another advantage with the USB-UIRT is that it works with Windows 7 64-bit, firewire does not. I do not recommend using the Hauppauge built-in IR blasters. They were nothing but trouble for me. Others also reported a lot of trouble with Hauppauge IR blasters.

Since WAF is important, you should also make sure you are periodically imaging your system. A computer failure can happen at any time with no warning, you need to minimize the SageTV downtime. Ghost or Acronis are good choices. Clonezilla is a free, but not as flexible.


Dave

[toricred]

I used serial control for my 4 Directv receivers for 2-3 years. I've recently moved to Ethernet control for the same receivers and it works exceptionally well.