A late adopter for HD with decisions to make

[stevech]

Reading postings here, I find people saying...

USB-UIRT works most of the time but does cause mis-tunings or lost recordings
(and this requires the UIRT and set top box be within USB range). Also read that some set top boxes don't power-up in the correct state for Sage to assume what the next IR command should be.

Firewire works on some set top boxes on some cable companies, but there's no cookbook (per box type?) on how to make Sage interface this way. Some cableCo's disable firewire but does mine? There are various forum discussions on use of firewire for tuning, but nothing I'd want to count on before making a buying choice.

I simply want a reliable scheme for a good WAF. The Hauppauge Std Def tuners have been very reliable with Sage (I have one USB, one PCI bus)

[Biggen]

Originally Posted by stevech

Reading postings here, I find people saying...

USB-UIRT works most of the time but does cause mis-tunings or lost recordings
(and this requires the UIRT and set top box be within USB range). Also read that some set top boxes don't power-up in the correct state for Sage to assume what the next IR command should be.

I have been using Sage since October of 2010 with a USB-UIRT doing the tuning on my Digital STB. Its has NEVER let me down (nor has the HD-PVR). I have not even had one missed episode or mistune with either of these two devices.

So in my mind, the USB-UIRT and HD-PVR work flawlessly with Sage and I couldn't imagine NOT recommending either...

YMMV

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stevech

Reading postings here, I find people saying...

USB-UIRT works most of the time but does cause mis-tunings or lost recordings
(and this requires the UIRT and set top box be within USB range). Also read that some set top boxes don't power-up in the correct state for Sage to assume what the next IR command should be.

Firewire works on some set top boxes on some cable companies, but there's no cookbook (per box type?) on how to make Sage interface this way. Some cableCo's disable firewire but does mine? There are various forum discussions on use of firewire for tuning, but nothing I'd want to count on before making a buying choice.

I simply want a reliable scheme for a good WAF. The Hauppauge Std Def tuners have been very reliable with Sage (I have one USB, one PCI bus)

I can't see why anyone would come and post on the forum to say that their system is working flawlessly. The USB-UIRT itself works 100% of the time. As long as you have it aimed well, and the codes are learned cleanly, it will function as designed. How often does even a sloppily held remote control mis-tune a station? Most likely not that often. IR protocols are very robust in their error resistance.

[davephan]

The USB-UIRT is totally reliable after you optimize it. The 'repeatcount' needs to be tweaked. The USB-UIRT can easily control three set top boxes and more than three boxes if the set top boxes can use different IR codes. Some people don't like the USB-UIRT because the channel changing takes several seconds. If you don't surf with the channel up/down button it's fine. If you surf, use the program guide instead of just the up/down button.

The first part of the upgrade should be replacing one of your MVP units with an HD-200 or HD-300. The audio will improve drastically and the video will also greatly improve. After using the HD unit, you will not want to use your other MVP units anymore. The MVP is very lousy compared to the HD extenders. This is true even if you have SD TVs. You probably won't notice as much audio improvement if you are using the poor quality internal speakers on some TVs, but you will still notice improvement. The MVP is obsolete just like the old rotary telephones.

If you can receive OTA HD, you should setup a separate dual tuner just for those channels. The quality will be better for the OTA channels, the conflicts will be reduced, and the OTA channel recordings will not be missed during cable outages. Less set top cable boxes will need to be rented, so the cost of the OTA tuner will pay for itself over time from the set top box monthly rental cost saving. A USB-UIRT or firewire will not be needed for the HDHomerun or HVR-2250. If you do have firewire, and it works, then the cable company could disable it at any time without warning.


Dave

[stevech]

Originally Posted by davephan

The USB-UIRT is totally reliable after you optimize it. The 'repeatcount' needs to be tweaked. The USB-UIRT can easily control three set top boxes and more than three boxes if the set top boxes can use different IR codes. Some people don't like the USB-UIRT because the channel changing takes several seconds. If you don't surf with the channel up/down button it's fine. If you surf, use the program guide instead of just the up/down button.

The first part of the upgrade should be replacing one of your MVP units with an HD-200 or HD-300. The audio will improve drastically and the video will also greatly improve. After using the HD unit, you will not want to use your other MVP units anymore. The MVP is very lousy compared to the HD extenders. This is true even if you have SD TVs. You probably won't notice as much audio improvement if you are using the poor quality internal speakers on some TVs, but you will still notice improvement. The MVP is obsolete just like the old rotary telephones.

If you can receive OTA HD, you should setup a separate dual tuner just for those channels. The quality will be better for the OTA channels, the conflicts will be reduced, and the OTA channel recordings will not be missed during cable outages. Less set top cable boxes will need to be rented, so the cost of the OTA tuner will pay for itself over time from the set top box monthly rental cost saving. A USB-UIRT or firewire will not be needed for the HDHomerun or HVR-2250. If you do have firewire, and it works, then the cable company could disable it at any time without warning.

Dave

Thanks, Dave. It's not prudent for me to buy an HD-300 until I decide how I'm going to do HD!
The HDHomerun and other cableCARD-less tuners are not wanted because 95% of the content we watch is copy protected in HD, even where the same content in standard def isn't (of course).
The set top boxes I can get from TWC have firewire but Lord knows if it is disabled now or will be. They disabled the eSATA port.

To use Sage, I guess I have to decide if I want to buy HD-PVR ($188), USB-UIRT (low cost) and hope it's reliable if setup correctly, a set top box from TWC dedicated to the HD-PVR (low cost/mo) and a HD-300 ($150).
Or wait for the SiliconDust 3 tuner product later this year with TWC's cableCARD (can commonplace multistream cards do 3 tuners?).
Or get a used TiVo with a 1TB disk upgrade (but TiVo is failing, financially).

TWC charges just $3/mo for a cableCARD and a reverse-link box (USB) for TWC's switched digital is free.

[davephan]

I think you are missing the point about the MVP and HD-300. Even if you had a standard definition setup, the HD-300 will work with all your SD components, including a SD TV. The reason to upgrade to the HD extender is that the audio and video quality are drastically better than the MVP, even if you don't have HD! The audio and video quality are really lousy! If you upgrade, you will then understand the difference between the MVP and HD extender. The MVP extender is really junk compared to the HD extender, even if all the other components are SD.

Of course the quality is even better if the other components are HD. But you'll enjoy immediate benefits with the HD extender before you switch over to HD.

Maybe most of the TV you watch are not locals. About 95% of the TV I watch are locals or Netflix movies. If you do watch locals and you can receive them with an antenna, then you can upgrade locals to HD and keep cable on SD. It's possible to migrate to HD over time instead of switch everything to HD at once.

I checked the Tivo web site, and it looks like their lifetime subscription is $300 - $400. I assume that cost is for each set top box. Each Tivo would then be stand-alone, requiring you to manually program everything and manually synchronize all your programming. It looks like the monthly cost is about $13 (per box?). The lifetime subscription would be dependent on Tivo staying in business for at least 2 1/2 years to re-coup your lifetime subscription investment. I've never had Tivo, but I heard they insert ads in the programs. I don't know if that is true. I think Tivo is a poor option except for people that are not tech savvy or want things as simple and straightforward as they can be with today's technology. It will never be as simple as the old days when there were 4 local channels, a channel changing dial on the black and white TV with no remotes. Some people long to go back to those days, but those days are gone forever.

So my suggestion is to migrate slowly over to HD over time, starting with one HD-300.


Dave

[stevech]

OK. I ordered an HD-300 despite my indecision on how to record copy-protected HD. Using the HD-300 via HDMI will, albeit expensively, solve the issue that my Vizio TV has but one analog video input. It has Ethernet and "yahoo widgets", and apparently they reduced the number of older inputs for the Ethernet version.

Now, decide TiVo vs. CableCo + HDPVR vs. DirectTV vs. Dish. Reading TiVo's forum, lots of users unhappy about the latest box; TiVo's financial woes are apparently constraining R&D.
(no OTA content desired)

[davephan]

When you get the HD-300, hook it up to your Vizio HD TV and A/B it with the MVP. You could also download some HD content from the Internet.

Here is one source:

http://homepage.mac.com/tonyfarley/b...fulplaces.html

These are short high quality HD videos to test your system in HD.

Since your're not interested in locals at all, then all you will have to do is determine if it is possible to receive the satellite signals from your location. If the path to the satellite, then your only choice is cable. Otherwise, you should choose depending on the best package and price for you. HD can be recorded from cable or satellite easily through the analog hole. The choices to record HD through the analog hole are the HD-PVR and Colossus. You could have trouble with either, but they work for most people.

If your interested in movie, I think Netflex is a better choice than cable movie channels.

You could also A/B the MVP and HD-300 on a SD TV. I suspect that after you check out the HD-300, the MVP won't be used anymore and you probably will want to upgrade your other MVP boxes to HD-300s too.


Dave

[stevech]

Originally Posted by davephan

The choices to record HD through the analog hole are the HD-PVR and Colossus. You could have trouble with either, but they work for most people.

This is what I dread. Sage gave us reliable support for Std Def tuners. Why not the same for at least one HD? Lots of folks say- no problem for me. But it's a gamble? And there's no official support from Sage, as I understand. So Sage is a play-only product (meaning supported)for HD? Yeah, I know: Buy a HD tuner or PVR and see what happens. Like I'm made of money.
Today, Sage runs on XP here; PC in garage. Never used for web surfing.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stevech

This is what I dread. Sage gave us reliable support for Std Def tuners. Why not the same for at least one HD? Lots of folks say- no problem for me. But it's a gamble? And there's no official support from Sage, as I understand. So Sage is a play-only product (meaning supported)for HD? Yeah, I know: Buy a HD tuner or PVR and see what happens. Like I'm made of money.
Today, Sage runs on XP here; PC in garage. Never used for web surfing.

Sage does officially support the HD-PVR and Colossus. However, there are problems in hauppauges drivers that cause the problems. Sage has implemented some workarounds, but in the end, if the drivers are crap, there's only so much they can do. The unfortunate truth is, there's just no other companies making the equivalent equipment. The R-5000HD works well, and it's what I'm using, but it is expensive, and, as you said, you aren't made of money. I bought my R-5000HD devices before the HD-PVR was an option.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Sage does officially support the HD-PVR and Colossus. However, there are problems in hauppauges drivers that cause the problems. Sage has implemented some workarounds, but in the end, if the drivers are crap, there's only so much they can do.

Keep it simple for me: What hardware for HD recording from the analog hole DOES Sage support? They don't support CableCARDs either. How does Sage intend customers to migrate to HD?

I wish Sage could have a large enough customer base to either inspire Hauppauge to cooperate in debugging or telling Sage what Sage needs to know, or, Sage could commission their own hardware for HD analog-hole products. Or get Hauppauge to reveal all the I/O details and Sage could commission their own device drivers.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by stevech

Keep it simple for me: What hardware for HD recording from the analog hole DOES Sage support? They don't support CableCARDs either. How does Sage intend customers to migrate to HD?

I wish Sage could have a large enough customer base to either inspire Hauppauge to cooperate in debugging or telling Sage what Sage needs to know, or, Sage could commission their own hardware for HD analog-hole products. Or get Hauppauge to reveal all the I/O details and Sage could commission their own device drivers.

Sage does work with Hauppauge, but Hauppauge has to be the one to fix things. If it is a driver issue, that has nothing to do with sage. As far as the ability to record HD, there are several options. Some use QAM, but since most companies have locked that down it isn't a viable option for you. Some use firewire, but that has the same issues as QAM. I use OTA only, but as you said that won't work. R5000 works, but is expensive and is limited to older boxes (IIRC). You can use cable card, but you have to have a provider that has everything you want marked copy freely since sage doesn't officially support cable card.

That leaves the HD-PVR and Colossus. Both are officially supported (with colossus being in beta) and work very well for quite a few people. Yes you take a gamble, but in the HTPC world nothing is guaranteed. As far as the analog hole closing, that is a long way away (if it ever happens) so I wouldn't even take that into consideration.

From what I've read in this thread you are either going to have to use your provider's stb (tivo?) or get an HD-PVR or colossus.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stevech

I wish Sage could have a large enough customer base to either inspire Hauppauge to cooperate in debugging or telling Sage what Sage needs to know, or, Sage could commission their own hardware for HD analog-hole products. Or get Hauppauge to reveal all the I/O details and Sage could commission their own device drivers.

I think Sage and Hauppauge already work pretty well together. Remember, Sage teamed up with Hauppauge to use the MediaMVP as an extender. They were among the first to support the HD-PVR when it was released. I think we learned about the existence of what became the HD-PVR from Sage well before Hauppauge said anything about it.

I suspect the problem is probably more that the HD-PVR hardware is more finicky than the old hardware mpeg2 encoders were.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I think Sage and Hauppauge already work pretty well together. Remember, Sage teamed up with Hauppauge to use the MediaMVP as an extender. They were among the first to support the HD-PVR when it was released. I think we learned about the existence of what became the HD-PVR from Sage well before Hauppauge said anything about it.

I suspect the problem is probably more that the HD-PVR hardware is more finicky than the old hardware mpeg2 encoders were.

and also said

Sage does officially support the HD-PVR and Colossus. However, there are problems in hauppauges drivers that cause the problems.

OK. Sage DOES officially support HD-PVR- Is that a formal position at Sage? Am I correct that the instability with this has persisted for quite a long time, i.e., integrating with Sage?

I just don't want to invest in HD-PVRs (or what?) and rent set top boxes with component out (or will this get disabled too by TWC?) , and so on, then have the WAF plummet and hear "we should have just gotten Time Warner's DVR" (or TiVo).

I would love to hear: "Don't worry, it'll work OK for you".

The Hauppauge MVPs and Hauppauge std def tuners have been reliable enough to gain a good WAF, for several years.

[panteragstk]

I'm honestly in the same boat as you. I am choosing between directv and dish network. They both have channels I want, but some are available on one, but not the other (which is stupid). I don't know whether to invest in HDPVR's, colossus' or get r5000 modded dish boxes. I like the idea of the r5000 mod (other than price), but after reading about user's on here (sage forum) they all say to get the hd-pvr instead due to flexibility and cost. That is from people that have multiple r5000's that have no issues with them. That is pretty convincing to me. I'm in no hurry for any of this so I'm going to wait for the colossus' issues to be worked out and then I'll have to decide.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by stevech

and also said

OK. Sage DOES officially support HD-PVR- Is that a formal position at Sage? Am I correct that the instability with this has persisted for quite a long time, i.e., integrating with Sage?

I just don't want to invest in HD-PVRs (or what?) and rent set top boxes with component out (or will this get disabled too by TWC?) , and so on, then have the WAF plummet and hear "we should have just gotten Time Warner's DVR" (or TiVo).

I would love to hear: "Don't worry, it'll work OK for you".

The Hauppauge MVPs and Hauppauge std def tuners have been reliable enough to gain a good WAF, for several years.

Since Sage re-sells the HD-PVR in the Sage Store on their website (either with or without a copy of Sage Software), and they list it on their page of officially supported products (http://www.sagetv.com/requirements.html?sageSub=tv), I would say they support it officially.

Yes, there were a lot of complaints about this product (especially when it first came out), and Hauppauge went through several iterations of both the hardware and the drivers. However, I think most of the problems have been worked out and there are many satisfied customers.

Personally, I have been using an HD-PVR for about 8 months now. In that time, I have had exactly one corrupted recording and it turned out that my cable had gone out just as a show was beginning and it locked up my cable box (I had to unplug the cable box to recover). That was certainly not Hauppauge or Sage's fault. To recover, I also re-booted my HD-PVR. That was the only time I have ever cycled power to the HD-PVR (I keep it plugged into a UPS, so it never loses power). I have rebooted my PC a few times during the past 8 months - usually when Windows requests it after installing some upgrade patch.

I probably record 20 shows per week on the HD-PVR on average. I use a USBUIRT for tuning. It's probably tuned the wrong channel about 5 times in the past 6 months. It's not perfect, but I find it good enough. Again, I blame my cable box - it is very sensitive (or not very sensitive depending on your point of view), even with the remote you have to aim very carefully or it will not change the channel correctly. Before I upgraded to HD, I used the same USBUIRT with an SD-only cable box for a couple of years and it was much more reliable (it went more than a year without a mistake), so this points to a cable box issue for me. This shouldn't be a total surprise - I've had 3 or 4 cable boxes completely die in the past 15 years - they definitely aren't bulletproof.

So to sum up, for me the HD-PVR and USBUIRT have been more reliable than the set-top boxes that Comcast has provided to me.

The thing you must realize is that any piece of consumer electronics will have at least some failures and some unhappy customers. Unhappy customers are much more likely to post about their experiences than happy customers. Go to NewEgg or Amazon and check out the reviews of any hard disk drive and you will probably find a lot of negative reviews. People will say that their drive was DOA, or failed after a few weeks, or that it ran excessively hot or was too noisey. Does this mean that hard drives are inherently bad and not worth having in your computer?

[stevech]

I use a USBUIRT for tuning. It's [the Sage system] probably tuned the wrong channel about 5 times in the past 6 months.

I've not seen/touched an HD-PVR. Per the product brochure, it has an IR Blaster output. Assuming Sage and HD-PVR together utilize this for controlling the set top box, wouldn't this be more reliable than a USB UIRT?


Mistuning once a month will not pass the WAF here, especially if the recording is corrupt but Sage doesn't know this, and there's no opportunity to record a future airing. The expectation is that which we have with the std def Hauppauge USB and PCI tuners - which maybe screwed up one or two recordings in several YEARS.

The issue here isn't quality assurance with the HD-PVR is it? The issues are software and/or hardware DESIGN issues common to all units.

[SWKerr]

Originally Posted by stevech

I've not seen/touched an HD-PVR. Per the product brochure, it has an IR Blaster output. Assuming Sage and HD-PVR together utilize this for controlling the set top box, wouldn't this be more reliable than a USB UIRT?


Mistuning once a month will not pass the WAF here, especially if the recording is corrupt but Sage doesn't know this, and there's no opportunity to record a future airing. The expectation is that which we have with the std def Hauppauge USB and PCI tuners - which maybe screwed up one or two recordings in several YEARS.

The issue here isn't quality assurance with the HD-PVR is it? The issues are software and/or hardware DESIGN issues common to all units.

The included IR Blaster should work as long as you only have one HD-PVR to deal with. I would not get the USB-UIRT unless you experience problems.

It is possible to setup the HD-PVR with its own guide and record the same show twice with each tuner. That way you would have a backup if something went wrong. You could continue this until you were comfortable with the HD-PVRs reliability.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stevech

The issue here isn't quality assurance with the HD-PVR is it? The issues are software and/or hardware DESIGN issues common to all units.

The issue is probably mostly that there are lot of different cable boxes that hook up to the HD-PVR, and a lot of different hardware/software configurations that use the HD-PVR. Hauppauge can't possibly test them all.

My main unresolved problem with my HD-PVR is that I couldn't record digital sound on the STARZ channels. For some goofy reason it would consistently lock up my HD-PVR at the end of the movie. So, that recording basically ended up alright, but the next recording would fail (and I wouldn't know until it was too late). Because it only happened consistently with STARZ channels, and because it was relatively consistent about when it happened within the recordings, I'm pretty sure Comcast has a little bit of a glitchy signal on the STARZ channels (or maybe its STARZ's fault, I don't know).

Would it be great if the HD-PVR was more resilient when faced with slightly defective signals. Absolutely. But I'm still reasonably satisfied with my HD-PVR. Admittedly I'd like to buy an HDHR Prime (assuming sage supports it), but I would keep around my HD-PVR to record off of my premium channels.

That being said, you might have unrealistic demands for reliability. My HDHR even has some failures, probably due to signal dropouts from Comcast. They don't happen often, but they will screw up 2-3 recordings a year. In my experience, the HD-PVR isn't bad, but its not perfect either. I think anyone buying an HD-PVR should be prepared to have it screw up a recording every 2-3 months. With any luck it won't even do that, but I think there's a reasonable chance that's the best you can do.

[davephan]

Originally Posted by stevech

Mistuning once a month will not pass the WAF here, especially if the recording is corrupt but Sage doesn't know this, and there's no opportunity to record a future airing. The expectation is that which we have with the std def Hauppauge USB and PCI tuners - which maybe screwed up one or two recordings in several YEARS.

The issue here isn't quality assurance with the HD-PVR is it? The issues are software and/or hardware DESIGN issues common to all units.

No electronic devices will work 100% of the time. It is very rare that recordings are missed. The USB-UIRT is very reliable. It is alway possible to miss recordings if you have rain or snow fade with the satellite provider. Cable TV has its outages too. I've missed recordings because the cable box got stuck in a 'programming mode', where the cable system needed to upgrade the cable box. I've had screwed up recordings when there is an emergency test, where the cable box tunes into a specific 'emergency test' channel.

Most programs are repeated or are available on a different medium. If you need to absolutely guarantee that you will never miss recordings, then you need to have redundant systems, such as two computer systems and two different providers. Or a SageTV system, cable DVR, and Tivo. No system will be perfect. I doubt if the cable DVR or Tivo boxes are perfect either. If you think that the cable DVR or Tivo is total perfect, then you should select that option. Since you've been using SageTV already, you must have rejected that option in the past. I rejected the cable DVR a long time ago. The cable DVR user interface was extremely barbaric and crude, and what about automatic commercial skipping, forget about it!

I record a lot of TV, most of which I never watch because there isn't enough time. It is very rare that I've had the wrong program record or had a problem with the program to make it unwatchable.


Dave