Tivo - the four letter word.

[KryptoNyte]

You know, folks, I dove into SageTV long ago ... long enough to forget how long. I do know that I researched the other options at that time, and Tivo left a bad taste in my mouth.

Well, after all these years with Sage, I decided to grab a $99 Tivo Premiere box today to see where they've come in all this time. What a revelation.

There are more and more devices emerging daily that take care of Internet media, like Netflix, Youtube, or Pandora, a one time purchase and then use indefinitely.

So ... I'm looking at this perfectly capable $99 Tivo device here in my living room, and after researching the current state of Tivo, only one thing comes to mind.

What complete genius to sell a device, and convince millions of people to pay you $20 a month for an EPG update that's completely free otherwise. And I suppose that $20/month is only for one device in the household. I am totally blown away at the blatant financial shafting that this Tivo company manages pulls off on a daily basis. How much longer can they pull this off until the simple truth becomes evident to their oblivious audience?

[KryptoNyte]

EDIT: I mentioned something about hacking this device, after which I was corrected by Plucky on some new info that I wasn't aware of, so I'll refrain from that type of posting.

[PLUCKYHD]

Wow you guys don't know operation cost and such do you? TiVo has yet to make a profit even the boxes are below cost. People pay every month for a box that isn't near as feature rich as TiVo.when they pay the cable and satellite companies for their dvrs. TiVo was a pioneer and I am glad to see them finally getting main stream with some of the cable companies.

Of course some people just like to %*tch about everything. No one is making anyone pay the monthlies if you don't like it don't use it. They also have lifetimes. I don't use TiVo myself but their monthlies are justifiable if you like TiVo. TiVo still has features I miss from my old directv TiVo days.

[KryptoNyte]

I hear what you're sayin, but it doesn't seem to be true.

Let's do a quick comparison. The XL version of the latest Tivo box currently sells at Best Buy for $300. I believe it has a 1TB hard drive in it. Anyone that buys that box is then obligated to pay Tivo $20/month for service to the box.

Alternatively, one here on the forum that's already using SageTV could continue using SageTV with roughly equivalent features, and pay no monthly fee (period ... none). We can try and limp this along the best we can for a few years.

Alternatively, one could purchase this box;
http://www.digitalconnection.com/pro...vixm6620np.asp, drop in a $80 hard drive providing twice the storage space of the Tivo device, have zero monthly fees, and have pretty much equivalent features to the Tivo box, with the exception of a complete EPG guide (as good as Tivo's interface is, it's largely unchanged over the last 10 years or so).

So, although neither of us really knows the ins-and-outs of Tivo's checkbook, I don't think it's any real reach to believe that the only useful service they provide is updates to the EPG, for $20/month.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

I hear what you're sayin, but it doesn't seem to be true.
...
Alternatively, one here on the forum that's already using SageTV could continue using SageTV with roughly equivalent features, and pay no monthly fee (period ... none). We can try and limp this along the best we can for a few years.

A bit of apples-to-oranges here - in that the TiVo, like a Cable STB, has a cableCard and records copy protected programs (mostly everything today) without the many issues of using the analog hole (STB + HD PVR/Composite).

[PLUCKYHD]

You realize the unit you used for your comparison is not even in the same league? It's not even cablecard only ota/qam only. There is a high cost involved in cable card and cable labs certification. Why do you think the computer cable cards tuners have such a cost? The only comparable is moxi box Which isn't cheap. I believe you can get a TiVo with lifetime for close to the same price.

Cable and satellite operators don't give away their DVr service either

[KryptoNyte]

Pluck, I think I'm probably arguing one step deeper than just the hardware, and it seems like all avenues that we attempt are ultimately crushed by the same issue ... some type of DRM/usage rights.

[KryptoNyte]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

....

Cable and satellite operators don't give away their DVr service either

Yes, I'm absolutely aware of this. It is worth mentioning that the Time Warner box that I would use for this has a slightly lower monthly fee than the Tivo solution, even moreso when you factor in the $4/month that TWC wants for the damn cablecard.

The problem with the cable/satellite boxes is that I can't fetch the video files and do <anything> with them.

[KryptoNyte]

That same company that I linked to is making some sort of Android device which although intriguing, still has the same old problem ...

[KryptoNyte]

Thanks folks, for schooling me a bit on the Tivo stuff. I'll give the Tivo a shot for about 20 days and see if that 20 bucks a month is worth what they think it is.

Anyone have any info on what you can, and can't transfer from the Tivo device back to PC for conversion to some other file format, or is that basically on a trial and error basis?

[stevech]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

Yes, I'm absolutely aware of this. It is worth mentioning that the Time Warner box that I would use for this has a slightly lower monthly fee than the Tivo solution, even moreso when you factor in the $4/month that TWC wants for the damn cablecard.

The problem with the cable/satellite boxes is that I can't fetch the video files and do <anything> with them.

Assuming you mean (fetch) copying the video recordings somewhere... yes, with STB's you can't. I read that you can copy/archive with TiVo. Can't decrypt them though. Also, switched digital - not sure TiVo can do that.

All considered, I elected to not go with TiVo for HD Cable TV.

[KryptoNyte]

So, what do you guys make of this?

http://code.google.com/p/kmttg/

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by stevech

Assuming you mean (fetch) copying the video recordings somewhere... yes, with STB's you can't. I read that you can copy/archive with TiVo. Can't decrypt them though. Also, switched digital - not sure TiVo can do that.

All considered, I elected to not go with TiVo for HD Cable TV.

99% sure tivos are SDV compatible. Also you can transfer and recordings that aren't marked copy once and do whatever you want with them has nothing to do with "decrypting" just what the copy protection of the channel is and that varies by provider.

[KryptoNyte]

Thanks, guys. I'm starting to get a very clear picture of just how good we had (or have) it with SageTV.

[KryptoNyte]

I ended up dumping the TiVo and grabbing an HD STB (non-DVR) and a Hauppauge HD-PVR 1212. The HD-PVR in conjunction with the HDHR tuners should do the job for now.

[loonsailor]

I switched from Tivo to Sage some time ago. The monthly charge irked me, for the same reason it does you. But now, with the uncertainty surrounding Sage, I may switch back.

The new Sage Premier Elite will have four tuners and cost $499 (less on the street?). Add lifetime service and you're still well under $1000 (especially since they'll still give me an "upgrade price" due to my one-time patronage). That's less than my Sage computer + HDHRs + HD-PVRs in hardware alone. Add in the monthly savings in cable cards rather than STBs, and the time I spend maintaining my Sage system (not a lot, but definitely >0), and the occasional hassles of keeping my HDHR channel map in order, and the Tivo doesn't sound so bad. It just works, and works well. Oh, and it gets Hulu and Netflix, without messing around with Playon or anything like that. Yes, the Tivo DRM was a PITA, but it wasn't all that difficult to sneak past it.

I really don't want to sound like a Tivo ad, because I'm very happy with my Sage. If Sage were to say something like "within 12-18 months, there will be a Google+Sage product that will be a superset of Sage 7, including DVR," I'd wait patiently and never look at another Tivo. But Sage is sitting still at the moment amid complete radio silence. Until they say something it seems equally likely that the product of Sage+Google will be something like Apple TV, and without DVR.

Meanwhile, Tivo is moving forward.

It's got me thinking. If only I could run comskip on a Tivo, and use an HD-300 with it...

[TimmyToo]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

99% sure tivos are SDV compatible. Also you can transfer and recordings that aren't marked copy once and do whatever you want with them has nothing to do with "decrypting" just what the copy protection of the channel is and that varies by provider.

Yes, TiVo supports SDV. My buddy has the same SDV adapter and cable card on his TiVo that I have on my HD HR Prime. He has been a hardcore TiVo lover from the very first model 10 years ago.

He currently has a TiVo Series 3 (first cable card TiVo) and a TiVo HD. He records shows on the bedroom TiVo and can transfer them to the den TiVo when I'm over and there is something we watch together.

I have the same thoughts on the cost of the TiVo subscription and the DRM issues. I will say this though, he has had 4 years of no cable card issues, never had to maintain a server, never installed tuner drivers, etc. All he has done the past 4 years is watch tv. Sometimes I wonder why I fart around with computer issues keeping a DVR running compared to just watching tv.

Don't get me wrong. My Sage server has been stable, the recent HD HR Prime addition isn't solid yet, and still love it. Maybe I'm getting old and tired.

I think most SageTV users would look at the TiVo interface and say, "Yah, it looks nice but my Sage works the same". We could switch to the TiVo and learn to live with it. If you ask a TiVo user to switch to Sage (or something else) you would hear a lot of complaining.

I'm still with SageTV as look as it works.

[NetworkGuy]

I purchased a Tivo about 1.5 years ago when Comcast decided to encrypt all non-broadcast channels. (I had planned on using HDHR Prime, but glad I did not wait since it is over a year late.)

I use the Tivo to record all non-premium, non-broadcast channels. I then use a program call kmttg on my server to download the recorded files once a day. After SageTV discovers these files, BMT fills in the details and I watch everything on SageTV.

I agree, I hate paying the monthly fee, but at the time there was no alternative. I guess it is my backup plan based on what happens with SageTV.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by NetworkGuy

I use the Tivo to record all non-premium, non-broadcast channels. I then use a program call kmttg on my server to download the recorded files once a day. After SageTV discovers these files, BMT fills in the details and I watch everything on SageTV.

Do these kmttg downloaded files retain the same bitrate and resolution as the original broadcast? Or does something (the tivo?) transcode them to a lower bitrate or resolution along the way?

Eg, is the quality better or worse that what you'd get from an HD-PVR or Colossus type "analog hole" type solution?

Thanks,

Drew

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by loonsailor

I switched from Tivo to Sage some time ago. The monthly charge irked me, for the same reason it does you. But now, with the uncertainty surrounding Sage, I may switch back.

The new Sage Premier Elite will have four tuners and cost $499 (less on the street?). Add lifetime service and you're still well under $1000 (especially since they'll still give me an "upgrade price" due to my one-time patronage). That's less than my Sage computer + HDHRs + HD-PVRs in hardware alone. Add in the monthly savings in cable cards rather than STBs, and the time I spend maintaining my Sage system (not a lot, but definitely >0), and the occasional hassles of keeping my HDHR channel map in order, and the Tivo doesn't sound so bad. It just works, and works well. Oh, and it gets Hulu and Netflix, without messing around with Playon or anything like that. Yes, the Tivo DRM was a PITA, .

So with that logic I would still buy a ceton 4 tuner for $299 and use wmc with no monthlies it's way better than tivo. You get Netflix and all that plus allot more than TiVo. The to add to other rooms it's just a $199 xbox not another TiVo and subscription. Just using your logic what I would do