Advice on a Linux PC-as-extender replacement.

[kbyrd]

I'm planing for the day when my guide data dies and I need to move away from my SageTV server + HD300 extender. As far as I can tell, the only other system that has a real appliance-y non-PC-based extenders is WMC + XBox. Before I go that route, I'd like to explore the state of the art of small form factor PC's. I'm familiar with the other end of things (large noisy boxes with lots of fans and drives) but not this end so I thought I would lean on all of you here.

So...
What do you all recommend for a small PC that could run Linux and act as a SageTV client? It should be fanless, I suppose not diskless, but the disk will be OS only so USB or other flash would work, otherwise a slow 2.5" drive. I don't need an optical drive. It needs a 100 or 1000 network interface, an HDMI out, probably optical audio out (although I use HDMI for audio now). It needs to be capable of decoding Blu-Ray at 1080p (that includes DTS audio sometimes, but I guess I could live with just AC3), as well as MPEG2 from clear QAM. Other must have formats would be MPEG4 and MP3 or AAC audio.

Re-reading that last paragraph, I realized I mixed the hardware requirements with software things that Linux may/may not do. Ok, what I really mean is a small box that can decode and display 1080p video along with DTS or Dolby-Digital audio over HDMI without a fan and without overheating.

The interaction with Linux (and why I'm asking you for help) is I'm hoping the hardware has some traction in Linux so that it's hardware is well supported.

If no one has advice on an complete PC, or CPU-on-board mobo, or just mobo, than could I at least get some advice on the right video/CPU combinations to get me going?

[drewg]

If you're using linux to build a client, you really want to stick with Nvidia graphics & use the Nvidia closed source driver. The open source graphics drivers are a mess. The closed Nvidia driver supports Nvidia's vdpau video playback acceleration API. The alternative (VAAPI) which is supported by the open drivers did not have much traction the last time I checked (eg, not easily supported by MythTV or XBMC).

The MythTV & XBMC folks have had decent luck with the "Ion" based systems (Intel atom CPU + Nvidia graphics). The problem is that once you do something that is not hardware accelerated (like try to play back flash video using Adobe's flash client), the system chokes. If I was going to build a linux client, it would be an underclocked, undervolted i3 with an Nvidia GPU. I'd either PXE boot it as a diskless client, or run it off a USB flash drive).

But... it sounds like the folks doing the Boxee client are having great success. I haven't tried it yet (I personally despise the XBMC / Boxee style gui; Malore all the way). At least for me, the natural path once my HD300 dies will probably be the Boxee box. We should always be able to get guide data via mc2xml or schedules direct.

Drew

[jchiso]

Are you already running a Linux-based Placeshiftter? I ask because it's not an actual "Client"; so even allowing for the fact of not being able to do stuff like play DVD or Blu-Ray content, you don't have a full complement of multimedia controls. I've run Linux placeshifter on 8400GS- and ion-based systems and have found the performance to be lacking. In fact, even when I've used VDPAU in XBMC I have not been able to achieve Windows- or even low-budget extender-like performance ...

[kbyrd]

Originally Posted by drewg

The MythTV & XBMC folks have had decent luck with the "Ion" based systems (Intel atom CPU + Nvidia graphics).

Got it, ION. Nvidia. This is where I was leaning, I've got experience running Nvidia closed source drivers on Linux desktops. Are there other contenders that work well? VIA EPIA? Stuff from AMD?

Originally Posted by drewg

The problem is that once you do something that is not hardware accelerated (like try to play back flash video using Adobe's flash client), the system chokes. If I was going to build a linux client, it would be an underclocked, undervolted i3 with an Nvidia GPU. I'd either PXE boot it as a diskless client, or run it off a USB flash drive).

Yea, this would be strictly a client of a backend (Sage,Myth, whatever). I've been in this backend-extender model long enough to know I really like the backend driving as much as possible and I won't want a browser or any other smarts on the client/extender. I'm thinking about PXE too, but I didn't want to muddy the discussion. If not, I'll boot from a spare USB key.

Originally Posted by drewg

But... it sounds like the folks doing the Boxee client are having great success. I haven't tried it yet (I personally despise the XBMC / Boxee style gui; Malore all the way). At least for me, the natural path once my HD300 dies will probably be the Boxee box. We should always be able to get guide data via mc2xml or schedules direct.

OK, full disclosure time. What I really meant was: "I'm probably moving to MythTV (and WMC or MediaPortal as distance 3rd/4th), what PC might do well as a Myth front end?" I'm asking here because I know you all and have a history here. I have none with the Myth folks yet. I figured the results would translate because the heavy lifting of the front end for me has to be video decoding (done by offloading the CPU) and the UI rendering (which most modern i3-ish CPUs can do without a fan.) This is all really about hardware and drivers that work well under Linux to do audio/video decoding.

It didn't occur to me I could keep Sage and hack together the guide data. I should try that now so I'm ready. That may end up being my solution.

Originally Posted by jchiso

Are you already running a Linux-based Placeshiftter? I ask because it's not an actual "Client"; so even allowing for the fact of not being able to do stuff like play DVD or Blu-Ray content, you don't have a full complement of multimedia controls. I've run Linux placeshifter on 8400GS- and ion-based systems and have found the performance to be lacking. In fact, even when I've used VDPAU in XBMC I have not been able to achieve Windows- or even low-budget extender-like performance ...

No, I'm running SageTV server on Linux with a single HD300. What do you mean the Linux-based placeshifter isn't a "client"? I assumed the Linux placeshifter could do everything an HD300 in extender mode does. As for performance, decoding video, assuming the codec is something the graphics system can deal with, shouldn't it just always work or not at all? One thing making this easier is I don't have lots of random formats to deal with. It's all mpeg2 from a HDHR, raw video/audio from blu-ray/DVD (previously decrypted, played back from an harddrive), or handbrake transcoded mkv files with H.264, mpeg4 video with either DTS, AC3, MP3, or AAC audio.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by jchiso

Are you already running a Linux-based Placeshiftter? I ask because it's not an actual "Client"; so even allowing for the fact of not being able to do stuff like play DVD or Blu-Ray content, you don't have a full complement of multimedia controls. I've run Linux placeshifter on 8400GS- and ion-based systems and have found the performance to be lacking. In fact, even when I've used VDPAU in XBMC I have not been able to achieve Windows- or even low-budget extender-like performance ...

You can play back DVD / BD that you rip to an mkv.

The big problem is that the SageTV supplied mplayer does not support vdpau. FWIW, with the native VDPAU enabled-mplayer in Ubuntu 11.10, I can play back a high bitrate BD rip with ~4% CPU utilization. This is with a Geforce 210 (fanless, and cost $30 or so).

I played with an Ion a while back ago. Ironically, I had great performance on MythTV and XBMC, but I could not get decent performance from Win7.

Drew

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by drewg

You can play back DVD / BD that you rip to an mkv.

I meant you can't play a ripped or standalone DVD or Blu-Ray filesystem.

Originally Posted by drewg

The big problem is that the SageTV supplied mplayer does not support vdpau. FWIW, with the native VDPAU enabled-mplayer in Ubuntu 11.10 ...
Drew

That's encouraging. I'm still using Maverick, so I may just have to upgrade ...

[kbyrd]

For some reason, I didn't think about the user-level software having to know about the offload, VDPAU in this case. Of course it does. It has to know to hand off an H.264 stream rather than just trying to blt pixels to a window.

Ok, so in this instance the problem is SageTV Placeshifter for Linux. A while ago, I has a Windows Sage instance and it seemed to do GPU offloading just fine, so I bet that works. I bet MythTV has this working, I'll check.

I think I'm going to by a fanless ION solution and play with it. In the worst (best?) case, it'll be a toy and I'll use mc2XML + HD300 or Boxee. Or, I'll move to MCE, MediaPortal or something. Just having that box gives me the option to explore, where now I'm sort of locked in with just and HD300.

[Fuzzy]

SageTV provided EPG isn't required for full functionality, just to make sure you don't go through a bunch of effort for nothing.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by kbyrd

I think I'm going to by a fanless ION solution and play with it. In the worst (best?) case, it'll be a toy and I'll use mc2XML + HD300 or Boxee.

You'd be much better off with a more powerful CPU, that way you're not 100% tied to having every possible format & software layer support for VDPAU. There is a great post by one of the MythTV guys on one of their "ultimate frontend" threads:

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/list.../490784#490784

Drew

[bcjenkins]

I am going to keep an eye on this project: http://www.geexbox.org/

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by bcjenkins

I am going to keep an eye on this project: http://www.geexbox.org/

Isn't this just another pre-packaging of XBMC? Like OpenELEC, or something? This still does not provide for live TV viewing ...

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by jchiso

Isn't this just another pre-packaging of XBMC? Like OpenELEC, or something? This still does not provide for live TV viewing ...

The will be adding DVB support, I guess I assumed it will include live TV viewing.

B

[darcilicious]

And IIRC, XBMC includes .strm support from HDHomeRun tuners as well (for live TV).

[kbyrd]

Looking around, I get hints that that the i3 will do software decode of H.264 at 1080p just fine. I even found fanless chassis by Plex (comes with a CPU heatsink that I assume conducts heat to the case surface, and a fanless CPU). If i3 is that powerful, then I can stop worrying about the GPU so much. It doesn't look like Myth supports offloading to the built-in Intel HD3000. I need to do some math, but an ITX board with an i3-2100T booting from a USB stick (so no drive) would probably stay under that 85W power budget.

Just so I have choices...
Drew, what are your picks for low power, fit in tight spaces, but do vdpau Nvidia GPUs? I don't need 3D, gaming, anything but 2D video.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by kbyrd

Just so I have choices...
Drew, what are your picks for low power, fit in tight spaces, but do vdpau Nvidia GPUs? I don't need 3D, gaming, anything but 2D video.

I have this one in my e3-1270 desktop. Plays back BD with vdpau in mplayer. I haven't played with MythTV.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127550

Oddly, even though NewEgg lists it with 512MB, the Nvidia-settings tool shows it with 1GB.

Drew

[kbyrd]

Wow, cheap, passive heat sink, and low profile. Thanks drewg. You rock!

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by kbyrd

Looking around, I get hints that that the i3 will do software decode of H.264 at 1080p just fine. I even found fanless chassis by Plex (comes with a CPU heatsink that I assume conducts heat to the case surface, and a fanless CPU). If i3 is that powerful, then I can stop worrying about the GPU so much. It doesn't look like Myth supports offloading to the built-in Intel HD3000. I need to do some math, but an ITX board with an i3-2100T booting from a USB stick (so no drive) would probably stay under that 85W power budget.

Just so I have choices...
Drew, what are your picks for low power, fit in tight spaces, but do vdpau Nvidia GPUs? I don't need 3D, gaming, anything but 2D video.

My older clarkdale i3-530 client peaks out at <60W playing back a bluray, that's running from a laptop harddrive. You should have no problem keeping a newer 2100T <85W if all it's doing is sagetv playback.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by kbyrd

Wow, cheap, passive heat sink, and low profile. Thanks drewg. You rock!

Speaking of heat sinks, if anybody has an aftermarket 1155 heat sink that they like, please let me know. The stock intel cooler is the loudest thing in my system. I'm looking for something easy to install into an already built system, which basically means I don't want to remove the motherboard to install a backplate.

I was thinking of the Arctic Freezer 13 PRO, but a comment from somebody whose mounting bracket had melted scared me off.

Drew