Extenders in home theaters - audio questions

[pjpjpjpj]

So I have HD100s, HD200s, HD300s in my house. All of them are connected directly to TVs via HDMI (flatscreen HDTVs) or composite (old tube TVs). Therefore, I've never paid attention to what types of audio decoding the various releases (100/200/300) can and can't do.

I am about to set up a real basement home theater (finally!!!! ... um, er, I love you, honey, and I'm fine with all the other projects you've crammed in front of this to stall it for 8 YEARS.... )

I'm trying to decide which extender will get moved to the theater. Right now we have an HD100 down there and I'd love to keep it there. All I will use it for is starting a movie or sporting event, so I'm not worried about the fact that, for example, the HD100 UI is slower-responding.

HOWEVER, I am concerned about the audio capabilities of the extender. I'll be buying a decent (more specifically, "current") home theater receiver with presumably the latest audio capabilities out there, and I want to make sure that whatever extender I put with it can send through the various audio encoding from all of my media.

As of right now, I only have ripped DVDs for movies - we've not gone to Blu-Ray yet. No 3D (nor interest in it) either. However, I have some recent DVDs, so whatever the latest audio encoding is on those, I want to be able to play it properly. My TV recording is OTA via HDHRs, native MPEG-2, so whatever audio the major networks send through (i.e., NFL football on CBS or Fox), I want to make sure that's able to be decoded as well.

I'm sure the easy answer is "put the HD300 down there". I would except I only have one and it's on our main family room TV, so I appreciate the faster UI and faster start-up time in that location. But before I do that, what I would really like to know is, "what DOESN'T the HD100 do, and what DOESN'T the HD200 do?" Are there audio codecs (I don't know if that's the correct use of "codec" in this instance) that the HD100 and/or HD200 can't handle, and I'd get no audio? Or perhaps only stereo instead of 5 or 6 or 7 channels? Can one of those older models handle everything that a DVD can throw at it, and I'd just not be able to go to Blu-Ray?

I would read the extender manuals, except I know that upgrades were made to their capabilities via firmware updates after the manuals were written, and I can't go through all of those updates....

Sorry this is so long, thanks in advance for reading and for any explanation anyone can offer.

[dgeezer]

Here is what works for me:
I felt the same way about the speed of the UI on the HD200 vs HD300 and did what you are suggesting. We use my one HD300 in the family room for watching recorded and live tv and some movies.

My fairly simple home theater consists of an HD200 feeding a Denon 1612 reciever, Polk speakers, and a big Vizio TV. None of this is high end by any means. I decided on the simplest receiver since I use it just as an amplifier to drive my 5.1 speaker system. I figured that I would use SageTV or maybe a Roku etc for streaming and didn't need my receiver to also have internet capabilities.

The HD200 will pass through AC3 and DTS to the amp and so far it plays all my DVD and BluRay rips fine. If I remember correctly, when I had the HD200 attached directly to my TV it would decode AC3 sound but wouldn't play DTS at all. I think that it converted the 5.1 AC3 to stereo so that the stereo TV speakers would play it back. Another reason to use the HD200 in the home theater is that once you have Bluray rips with DTS sound on the network you may want to play them on the family room TV. If you leave the HD300 where it is then it can convert DTS to stereo and feed it into your TV.

[KryptoNyte]

Regarding clarification on the HD100, check out this thread;

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49932

Read the whole thread as there are some corrections by users in later posts.

Furthermore, what video display device (specific manuf and model) do you plan to use in your new home theater?

[Fuzzy]

This is mostly from memory:

HD100

• Can just barely play BluRay rips. Really high bitrate blurays can exceed it's capabilities.
• Will bitstream AC3 or DTS audio via the HDMI or SPDIF output.
• Can decode AC3 for output to stereo RCA.
• UI rendered at 960x540

HD200

• Can play BluRay rips fine.
• Will bitstream AC3 or DTS audio via the HDMI or SPDIF output.
• Can decode AC3 for output to stereo RCA.
• UI rendered at 1024x576

HD300

• Can play BluRay fips fine.
• Will bitstream AC3 or DTS audio via the SPDIF.
• Will bitstream AC3, DTS, TrueHD or DTS-MA via the HDMI.
• Can decode AC3 and DTS for output to stereo RCA.
• UI rendered at 1280x720

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

This is mostly from memory:


HD300

• Will bitstream AC3, DTS, TrueHD or DTS-MA via the HDMI.

The TrueHD and DTS-MA is broken on the latest firmware, don't remember on top of my head, but there is an old version that seems to work properly, however that version seems to have the old UI resolution (1024x576 as per the HD200) and not the new 1280x720.

Eddy

[razrsharpe]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

This is mostly from memory:

HD300

• UI rendered at full 1920x1080

HD300 renders the UI at 1280x720...

Originally Posted by routerunner

The TrueHD and DTS-MA is broken on the latest firmware, don't remember on top of my head, but there is an old version that seems to work properly, however that version seems to have the old UI resolution (1024x576 as per the HD200) and not the new 1280x720.

Eddy

latest firmware works just fine bitstreaming hd audio to my denon 2113 (or at least i think it is) how is it not supposed to be working?

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by razrsharpe

latest firmware works just fine bitstreaming hd audio to my denon 2113 (or at least i think it is) how is it not supposed to be working?

There are known issues with DTS-MA and TrueHD bitstreaming on the HD300 and been reported here http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/foru...er=desc&page=4.

Personally I have few movies that doesn't work properly on the HD300, but there are previous version of the firmware that do work.

Eddy

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by razrsharpe

HD300 renders the UI at 1280x720...

Hey, I did say it was from memory. All my clients render at 1920x1080 now, so it doesn't matter to me.. :-)

[pjpjpjpj]

Thanks for all the info.

First off, I am planning on using HDMI through the receiver (whatever I buy) and then HDMI to a projector, likely the Epson 8350. Kryptonyte, was there a concern you had in asking about the display device?

I have to admit that I'm a noob about all the various audio encoding types (as I said above, I've never had to worry about it before). So it sounds like DTS-MA and TrueHD are the only types that really cause problems (firmware issues notwithstanding). Are those ypes sometimes on newer DVDs, or are those Blu-Ray only audio types? And if those types are included, do they typically include AC3 or DTS also?

Another question which sorta doesn't directly have to do with Sage: about 8 years ago when I first started thinking about a home theater (see my OP ), there were 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 surround systems. But lately, when I look at ads (Sunday paper, etc.) or even on websites, it seems like I hardly see anything other than 5.1. Has the industry moved away from 6- or 7-channel surround? Or did companies just decide it wasn't worth the extra speaker or two? What happened there?

And to tie this back to Sage, how many channels can all those audio types (AC3, DTS, DTS-MA, TrueHD) carry? Are some limited to only 5 channels? For example, if I was using an HD100 or HD200 in the new theater and could only do AC3 and DTS, would I be wasting money to look for a 6- or 7-channel receiver and speakers?

Oh, and I've never had a reason to use the SPDIF before, and intend on using HDMI here. SPDIF is only for when you use component for your video and want digital audio to go with it, right?

[KryptoNyte]

Regarding the display device, I went the route of ditching my projector and grabbed one of those big Sharp TV's. The problem that I encountered had to do with video lag due to how much video processing the television was doing, which I believe you'll mostly avoid with the projector.

I'm not sure how much you've researched the latest HDMI based receivers, so here's what I learned as I researched. I apologize if this gets a little boring, but I wish that someone would have given me a rundown on the new HDMI receivers to save me some headaches along the way.

The newer average consumer level receivers typically have (3) or more HDMI-in ports, and then (1) HDMI-out port. The HDMI-out port should be "ARC" compatible. ARC was brand new to me, short for "Audio Return Channel," and as long your television also has at least (1) ARC compatible HDMI-in port, it will allow the TV to receive the full video+audio data passed THROUGH the receiver, then send the audio BACK to the receiver. The reason for this wasn't immediately apparent to me, but after setting up my new TV with my old non-HDMI receiver (via optical out of HD200 directly into my old receiver, HDMI to the TV for video only) I experienced significant video lag due to all of the post-processing that was slowing down the TV displayed image.

I then decided it would make sense to feed the TV the entire video/audio signal via the HDMI (from the SageTV HD200) and then use the television's optical-out port to feed my old receiver, hoping the audio/video would once again sync up (the audio led the video by quite a bit initially, very annoying). To my dismay, the receiver was only getting stereo input from the TV's optical-out. I subsequently complained about this in another forum where I was officially 'schooled' about the simple fact that optical-out (toslink) of any "viewing device" is NOT an HDCP compliant audio path, so the output is downmixed to PCM stereo by the Sharp television, by compliance with HDCP requirements, regardless of whether or not the input was HDCP content (which of course SageTV is not).

Because the Sharp TV had the ARC compatible HDMI-in port, I finally decided to grab a new $250 HDMI based Yamaha receiver with an ARC compatible HDMI-out port. Not only does the ARC allow the TV to control the sync between the video and the audio, but it provides a logical connection between the TV and the amplifier, and once linking the two devices, when I turn the TV on with the TV remote, the receiver is turned on via the TV signal - there is communication between the two devices.

A couple of added benefits, that I wasn't expecting, for those fancy new receivers (even as cheap as mine was);

1) Remember those days of setting up your new 5.1 channel receiver by reading through the manual and meticulously following the remote keypunches as well as the prompts on that tiny receiver LED screen? Well, because the receiver is now connected to the TV via HDMI, all that funky old setup is overlayed from the receiver right on the TV screen - far easier to get your receiver setup today. It's an obvious advantage that I didn't consider in advance.

2) That cheap new Yamaha receiver I picked up has a nifty little microphone with a 20 foot cord that plugs into the front of the receiver. You then place the mic right where your head will be when watching television. The receiver runs through a series of test tones and automatically adjusts your speaker levels - it worked *surprisingly* well.

Even on the new receiver, I went with 5.1 channels. I just don't personally see the need for more. Here's an article on that aspect;
http://hometheater.about.com/od/home...1vs7-1diff.htm

So anyways ... short story made long.

[pjpjpjpj]

Kryptonyte,
Thanks for that info. Funny, I had just spent lunch searching online for receivers and learned about the ARC feature (the models I looked at had it). But I didn't realize it was used for syncing audio and video, frankly, I didn't know why you'd need it.

So you say I would not be concerned since I would have a projector. Would the projector not have some lag? Now you have me worried about that....

[Fuzzy]

You are a little off on the purpose of the ARC. ARC, audio return channel, is to get TV audio, as from the TV s internal tuner, back to the avr, without a separate cable. Most don't use it, because most who run an avr, are getting TV via a stb and not the internal TV tuner. What you DID experience was an HDMI 1.3 feature, called audio video sync, in which each device in the network can report its delay times for audio and video processing and rendering, in an effort took adjust it appropriately. Unfortunately, that feature is optional.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

You are a little off on the purpose of the ARC. ARC, audio return channel, is to get TV audio, as from the TV s internal tuner, back to the avr, without a separate cable. Most don't use it, because most who run an avr, are getting TV via a stb and not the internal TV tuner. What you DID experience was an HDMI 1.3 feature, called audio video sync, in which each device in the network can report its delay times for audio and video processing and rendering, in an effort took adjust it appropriately. Unfortunately, that feature is optional.

So what you are saying is that if my projector has HDMI 1.3 (it does) and I buy a receiver with HDMI 1.3, then I'm all set?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

So what you are saying is that if my projector has HDMI 1.3 (it does) and I buy a receiver with HDMI 1.3, then I'm all set?

No. Like I said. That featured is optional in the standard. Your best bet is to make sure the AVR has a manual setting for delay, and you can just manually tweak it.

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

So what you are saying is that if my projector has HDMI 1.3 (it does) and I buy a receiver with HDMI 1.3, then I'm all set?

As fuzzy said the "Lip sync" feature is optional and a typical projector can take up to three/four frames to make the picture...so you definitevely need the AVR been able to "Lip sync" with the projector.

I have the Yamaha YSP-4100 sound projector connected to a Panasonic PT4000 projector and fortunately both have the lip sync feature implemented so every time I change the projector mode to 1 frame for gaming, 2 frames for 100hz movie setting and 3 frames for more processing the two gets in sync automatically.

Eddy

[KryptoNyte]

I did not realize that lip sync features could function with just HDMI 1.3, without ARC. The manual audio delay setting that Fuzzy mentioned would probably be most important for your scenario. With my setup, I have not been able to get the lipsync feature on the avr enabled (best I can tell), so I've been forcing the delay manually. Unfortunately, the delay is different depending on which processing mode the TV happens to be running in.

Sorry if this went too far off topic.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

Because the Sharp TV had the ARC compatible HDMI-in port, I finally decided to grab a new $250 HDMI based Yamaha receiver with an ARC compatible HDMI-out port. Not only does the ARC allow the TV to control the sync between the video and the audio, but it provides a logical connection between the TV and the amplifier, and once linking the two devices, when I turn the TV on with the TV remote, the receiver is turned on via the TV signal - there is communication between the two devices.

If you are environmentally conscious, have expensive electricity, or otherwise hate power "vampires", look into how your receiver handles ARC before you buy it..

At least on my ~1 year old Onkyo receiver, it will burn ~50W when "off" *unless* you disable all that fancy HDMI stuff. Eg, in order to use ARC, you need to have their version of CEC (RIHD) enabled, and when you enable that, the power consumption when "off" increases from ~5w to ~50w (which is indistinguishable from "on"). So, no ARC for me..

Drew

[KryptoNyte]

That's nasty. The cheap Yamaha I purchased a few months ago uses (1) Watt in ARC standby.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

Sorry if this went too far off topic.

Not at all, it's all very educational and keeping me from buying something I maybe should not!

I'm thinking I will stick with good old 5.1, since I really don't have good locations for the other two speakers anyway. In that case, the HD100 down there will work, or possibly an HD200 (since new HD300s are hard to come by these days!)

I need to put together a purchase list....

BTW, Krypto, how do you like the big Sharp? I saw a 70" Aquos on sale yesterday (since it's Super Bowl time and all the big TVs are on sale). It would only be a little smaller than the screen I'm gonna be getting - though it would still cost about $500 more than the whole projector/screen package.

[KryptoNyte]

Yeah, I got the 70". It's nice, but make sure you get the LC-70LE640U model or better (not the LC-70LE600U model). I don't care about the smart TV features, but there are folks claiming more image control with the 640U. Unlike some folks, I don't mind the SOE (soap opera effect), in fact I like how it can clean up motion. You definitely can't expect Samsung 240hz fluid motion on the Sharp 70" 120hz televisions, however, there is the occasional situation where you have to alter settings/processing modes to eliminate strange picture motion artifacts. Some folks complained that there was a trail when the football was thrown, but with the HD200 or HD300, I don't seem to get that, and of course you can turn ALL processing features off if it serves you.

If I had a room where it was easy to control the light (like a basement), and had a projector that had decent throw distance amongst other robust controls, I might go back to the projector. It's just so darn easy to turn on the HD300/TV/Amp.

This is the AVR that I paired with that TV;
HERE