Extenders in home theaters - audio questions

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

I'm thinking I will stick with good old 5.1, since I really don't have good locations for the other two speakers anyway.

Have you considered a sound projector? They work pretty well, no wires, no mess, high WAF, and all from one sound location. I bought the Yamaha YSP-4100 and is just amazing, add a good sub and for the extra slam a ButtKicker ;-), fantastic!

Eddy

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by routerunner

Have you considered a sound projector? They work pretty well, no wires, no mess, high WAF, and all from one sound location. I bought the Yamaha YSP-4100 and is just amazing, add a good sub and for the extra slam a ButtKicker ;-), fantastic!

Eddy

Honestly I had not thought about that because I have speakers already (from two old systems from long ago) and my basement spot is all lay-in ceiling tiles and stud walls that I once built and prepped for this, so fishing the wire will be a piece of cake. All I need is a receiver and a sub.

So I got a lot of good info from this thread but nobody addressed whether DVDs sometimes have TrueHD or DTS-MA, or whether those are only found on BD?

[Fuzzy]

No, DVDs only contain AC3 (Dolby Digital) or DTS. Both are up to 5.1, and both can be transmitted either via SPDIF (toslink, or coaxial), or HDMI.
TrueHD and DTS-MA are both only transmitable via HDMI 1.3 or greater (earlier versions of HDMI can still transmit the decoded multichannel PCM).

TrueHD is the 'High Def' version of AC3. TrueHD tracks CAN also contain within them a standard AC3 'Core', for devices that do not support TrueHD.

DTS-HD Master Audio (Sometimes written as DTS-MA) is the 'High Def' version of DTS. Unlike TrueHD's optional core, DTS-MA always contains a standard DTS 'Core'.

Both TrueHD and DTS-HD are multichannel lossless codecs on BluRay and HD-DVD (lossless meaning the bits that go into the encoder when produced, are the same bits that come back out in the decoder in your house). They both support up to 8 channels of 24bit/96kHz audio, or 6 channels of 24bit/192kHz audio.

[jarredduq]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

This is mostly from memory:

HD100

• Can just barely play BluRay rips. Really high bitrate blurays can exceed it's capabilities.
• Will bitstream AC3 or DTS audio via the HDMI or SPDIF output.
• Can decode AC3 for output to stereo RCA.
• UI rendered at 960x540

HD200

• Can play BluRay rips fine.
• Will bitstream AC3 or DTS audio via the HDMI or SPDIF output.
• Can decode AC3 for output to stereo RCA.
• UI rendered at 1024x576

HD300

• Can play BluRay fips fine.
• Will bitstream AC3 or DTS audio via the SPDIF.
• Will bitstream AC3, DTS, TrueHD or DTS-MA via the HDMI.
• Can decode AC3 and DTS for output to stereo RCA.
• UI rendered at 1280x720

Another capability of the HD300 is if the video file uses 5.1 AAC for the audio it will convert it to PCM 5.1. The HD200 downmixes AAC files to stereo. Not sure about the HD100.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by jarredduq

Another capability of the HD300 is if the video file uses 5.1 AAC for the audio it will convert it to PCM 5.1. The HD200 downmixes AAC files to stereo. Not sure about the HD100.

Right, that's a result of the HD100 and 200 not really having HDMI audio capabilities. They really only have the capabilities of SPDIF, and wrap that onto the HDMI output.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

The newer average consumer level receivers typically have (3) or more HDMI-in ports, and then (1) HDMI-out port. The HDMI-out port should be "ARC" compatible. ARC was brand new to me, short for "Audio Return Channel," and as long your television also has at least (1) ARC compatible HDMI-in port, it will allow the TV to receive the full video+audio data passed THROUGH the receiver, then send the audio BACK to the receiver. The reason for this wasn't immediately apparent to me, but after setting up my new TV with my old non-HDMI receiver (via optical out of HD200 directly into my old receiver, HDMI to the TV for video only) I experienced significant video lag due to all of the post-processing that was slowing down the TV displayed image.

I then decided it would make sense to feed the TV the entire video/audio signal via the HDMI (from the SageTV HD200) and then use the television's optical-out port to feed my old receiver, hoping the audio/video would once again sync up (the audio led the video by quite a bit initially, very annoying). To my dismay, the receiver was only getting stereo input from the TV's optical-out. I subsequently complained about this in another forum where I was officially 'schooled' about the simple fact that optical-out (toslink) of any "viewing device" is NOT an HDCP compliant audio path, so the output is downmixed to PCM stereo by the Sharp television, by compliance with HDCP requirements, regardless of whether or not the input was HDCP content (which of course SageTV is not).

I got a Sharp 80" a couple of weeks ago and here are a few comments:

I don't have an ARC receiver so I use optical. But this only matters for stuff where your TV is the source - which for me is live OTA (which I never watch since I have Sage) and Netflix. I was initially only getting stereo but there is a setting in the TV menus for the digital audio that you have to change to give you 5.1 for Netflix and OTA.

But ARC is irrelevant for Sage playback, it seems to me that your issue was that your were using HDMI for video and optical for audio which was causing problems.

Regarding the TV processing - you can turn that of with the AV settings. That processing is particuarly an issue when you try to play games like Rock Band as it screws upt eh synch as you encountered.

p.s It seems like nothing becomes obsolete faster than AVRs even though their core functionality is still pretty much OK. If you have an AVR that has no HDMI or only a couple HDMI inputs or semi-crippled HDMI or no upconversion then it is of limited utility these days, especially if you want a more clean cabling solution in your system with one cable from AVR to TV. I now have about 3 AVRs that I am not happy with due to the lack of HDMI.

edit - By processing I thought you meant the "enhancement" that the TV can do in certain AV modes like "Movie", etc. But now that I think about it you likely mean the processing required for HDCP for all HDMI connecitons. The latter you can't turn off but the former you can.

[pjpjpjpj]

Just a note, it seems like almost all semi-decent new receivers I am seeing out there (by any respectable brand) have 4 HDMI in, and one out. They all have audio delay adjustability for syncing with the TV (if they don't have auto sync through the HDMI). Quite a few already have 4KTV passthrough capabilities for future-proofing. And almost all handle DTS-MA, TrueHD, and all the other stuff discussed above.

I've mostly been looking at Amazon, at the low-to-mid Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony -type stuff.

[wayner]

One thing that you don't get in the low-mid is upconversion. That means that you can attach component, s-video or composite to the receiver and it will upconvert to HDMI. Without this you still need the other connections from AVR to TV.

This has become less important in recent years, but I still need component for the Wii (which doesn't have HDMI) and for my cable box (for which the HDMI output died a few years ago). I personally don't use the cable box as I don't watch live TV but other members of the family do.

I HATE replacing my AVR as it is a ton of work. There are so many cables to take off and re-attach. And if you have non-HDMI components then you have to make sure that you reprogram things so that Optical Audio In1 and Component Video In1 map to the Video Aux Input and then you have to rename this to "Wii" or whatever. And then you have to totally reprogram your universal remote, in my case currently a Harmony One.

This is a lot easier in the world where everything is HDMI but that brings up other problems, such as do you want your TV to use the same AV mode regardless of the source? The answer is likely no if one of those sources is a game box.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by wayner

One thing that you don't get in the low-mid is upconversion. That means that you can attach component, s-video or composite to the receiver and it will upconvert to HDMI. Without this you still need the other connections from AVR to TV.

This has become less important in recent years, but I still need component for the Wii (which doesn't have HDMI) and for my cable box (for which the HDMI output died a few years ago). I personally don't use the cable box as I don't watch live TV but other members of the family do.

I HATE replacing my AVR as it is a ton of work. There are so many cables to take off and re-attach. And if you have non-HDMI components then you have to make sure that you reprogram things so that Optical Audio In1 and Component Video In1 map to the Video Aux Input and then you have to rename this to "Wii" or whatever. And then you have to totally reprogram your universal remote, in my case currently a Harmony One.

This is a lot easier in the world where everything is HDMI but that brings up other problems, such as do you want your TV to use the same AV mode regardless of the source? The answer is likely no if one of those sources is a game box.

There are companies that make HDMI conversion cables for the Wii. Some even upscale the image (I'm not sure on the scaling quality). I am looking to purchase one to get away from anything non-hdmi in my setup (even my karaoke machine has HDMI now.. :-)

[wayner]

Stop it, you're enticing me to get a new receiver to go with my new TV. And as I said earlier, I DREAD replacing the AVR since it is some much cabling.

To be honest, if I have upconversion then I care somewhat less about having to use non-HDMI cables.

Another thing I am wondering about, which I will start in a new thread since it has nothing to do with Sage, is the issues that you can cause when you only use on input on your TV. One downside to this is that you then may have to switch your AV mode (or whatever your TV calls it) when switching amongst sources, particuarly games. Most TVs remember this setting for a specific input, but when you start using the same TV input for all sources then you lose that advantage.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by wayner

Stop it, you're enticing me to get a new receiver to go with my new TV. And as I said earlier, I DREAD replacing the AVR since it is some much cabling.

To be honest, if I have upconversion then I care somewhat less about having to use non-HDMI cables.

Another thing I am wondering about, which I will start in a new thread since it has nothing to do with Sage, is the issues that you can cause when you only use on input on your TV. One downside to this is that you then may have to switch your AV mode (or whatever your TV calls it) when switching amongst sources, particuarly games. Most TVs remember this setting for a specific input, but when you start using the same TV input for all sources then you lose that advantage.

Personally, I never change 'modes' on my TV. I have it setup and calibrated how works best for that environment, and it stays there. That said, I have the capability of changing it using Girder via serial port from my client PC (one of the many advantages of full PC clients vs. extenders)

[wayner]

I am not a big gamer but the one game that I play occasionally is Rock Band. When I tried to play it in the normal mode on my TV the Synch was way off you can do a calibration but that is highly dependent on the mode.

I am guessing that is why there is a "Game" mode that turns off all of the processing.

I don't really know this stuff too well but isn't there something called 3:2 pulldown adjustment that makes movies look better on your TV. My TV (a Sharp) also has stuff like Motion Enhancement. I haven't tried this stuff yet but I do have a video tuning DVD that I will be using to calibrate my TV and this may call for different settings on different inputs. Getting my remote to do that can be a bit of work.

[Fuzzy]

Yeah, I don't use any significant processing at all. 3:2 pulldown is used to turn a 60field-per-second telecined interlaced video signal back into it's original 24frame-per-second signal. If your client/extender is already adjusting to 24Hz output it is not in play. As for other things like Motion Enhancement - this is something that drives me crazy, so the one display I own that has it, it is turned off all the time. The only 'processing' done in my TV is color correction/adjustment, and dynamic contrast control, both of which are single frame processing, not time determinate like motion adaption, and as such, don't really result in a lag. Of course, the best TV for display quality (Samsung HL-T6189S LED DLP) I own is 6 years old and doesn't have all that newfangled stuff anyway...

[Fuzzy]

I would love to at some point, be able to write a new video renderer that will output 120Hz checkerboard to my DLP, so it doesn't have to change modes - but I haven't done that yet.

[KryptoNyte]

Originally Posted by wayner

But ARC is irrelevant for Sage playback, it seems to me that your issue was that your were using HDMI for video and optical for audio which was causing problems.

Initially I was using the optical, with my old man style optical receiver, but (as I mentioned) I like the post-processing effects that the TV does to the SageTV HD300 input, so clearly a new receiver with HDMI ARC/lip sync/manual delay was the correct solution.

My old receiver did not have any setting to delay the audio to sync with the delayed (processed) video image on the TV, so that was an obvious problem. Because I'm feeding the Sharp the HDMI signal from the HD300, there is no setting on the Sharp that will allow it to output anything but PCM stereo via the TV's optical output.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by wayner

One thing that you don't get in the low-mid is upconversion. That means that you can attach component, s-video or composite to the receiver and it will upconvert to HDMI. Without this you still need the other connections from AVR to TV.

Actually, a few low-to-mid AVRs I've seen do have upconversion. I really have no need for it though, as all my DVDs are ripped to the Sage system and the VCR is retired. Even my camera and camcorder are HDMI but I'd plug them directly to the TV if I wanted to watching something on them.

I suppose I ought to hook up my old DVD player (which would be component) for when my kids get a little older, in case a friend brings over a movie and they want to watch. ...meh, who am I kidding, by the time my daughter (3.5 years) is old enough to do that, her little friends will be bringing their iPad 7's and they'll all just huddle around it (or expect my receiver to be able to wirelessly stream from it via bluetooth or something)...

As of right now, my system will be all-HDMI: extender-->receiver-->projector
...and nothing else.

[wikel]

Got a HD300 pushing to a Panny onto a 138" 2.35:1 screen. Over a 7.2 speaker system. One word... stunning!

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Right, that's a result of the HD100 and 200 not really having HDMI audio capabilities. They really only have the capabilities of SPDIF, and wrap that onto the HDMI output.

so can the HD200 output usable 5.1 surround tracks via the HDMI cable, or is it mixed down to stereo on the HDMI output?

[wayner]

I have never had problems with DD 5.1 with extenders from TV, DVDS or DVD rips

[tvmaster2]

Originally Posted by wayner

I have never had problems with DD 5.1 with extenders from TV, DVDS or DVD rips

hmm - I am trying to output 5.1 from the HDMI connection - either live or recorded material with 5.1 encoding...I have selected "bitstreaming" in the setup menu, and HDMI video output, however, NO 5.1 via HDMI.

I can output 5.1 just fine from the optical connection.

also, the HD200 is connected via an Encore N USB wifi dongle, which isn't having any problems so far.

I am using a Vizio 24" tv to pass the HDMI through, via an optical audio out connection to my Yamaha receiver. There are two HDMI sources on the TV, and one is passing the 5.1 through just fine.
The second HDMI input, fed from the HD200, is downmixing to stereo at the optical output. weird