Idiots guide to DVB-S2 with Sage

[something fishy]

Hi
I have been using SageTV for many years outside the UK but only with analogue capture cards recording from set-top (cable) boxes.

I'm moving back to the UK and obviously SageTV is moving with me.

The house we are moving to is satellite only, I've already acquired a DVB-S2 card (TBS 6985 quad tuner) but I've no idea about frequencies and other setup etc.

I like to be prepared ahead of time, are there any idiots guides for how DVB-S2 in SageTV works and how to set-up.

If it makes a difference the SageTV server will be Win7 32 bit on an Ivy Bridge (HD4000 graphics) mainboard (presently used to watch iplayer), I might use it to drive the TV directly but at the moment I use HD300 extenders.

Also, does DVD-S2 have decent EPG info embedded and can SageTV extract it or should I assume I'll need to source xmltv (if so, what's the best source?).

[routerunner]

I can help you on setting up the TBS 6985 and keeping the frequencies up to date automatically.

Regarding the EPG it depends as there are some excellent solution out there. I personally use the DigiGuide (the source) -> Birtles (the grabber) -> Stephane XMLTV importer (the EPG inserter) workflow which works really well, but I'm sure someone will step in with ton of ideas.

Please read here to have a taste of what involved. The article is focused on DVBLogic (network encoder), however 90% of the article is still relevant to you and should help you a lot.

Eddy

[something fishy]

@ routerunner
Thank you for that reference; its extremely clear. I have a couple of follow up questions:
1) you use DVBlogic in the guide. What are the advantages of using this over using the cards native in SageTV
2) I presume that a network encoder (on 127.0.0.1). In this it appears that DVBe4Sage and LMGestion's software are basically doing the same thing. Are there any specific advantages/disadvantages with any vs using the card direct in Sage?
3) I see that you are the author of a SageTV7 plugin that automates updating after periodic changes in frequency.
- First, how often are these changes in frequency.
- Second, does the plugin have any specific requirements (Sage using the card direct vs any particular encoder)
- Third, does the plugin semi automate initial setup even if the SageTV default freq files are out of date.

Thank you for your advice on epg sourcing. I use Stephane's importer myself. Getting listings is a major hassle in Asia where I live at the moment (I use tvxb but invested many many hours in debugging and reacting when webpages change). After that I'm hoping that sourcing epg info in the UK will be a piece of cake.

BTW the old recommendation on a Win7 box was to put SageTV in a directory outside of C:\program fles... to avoid UAC complications.
is that no longer an issue (my working install at the moment is SageTV v6 on xp!)

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by something fishy

1) you use DVBlogic in the guide. What are the advantages of using this over using the cards native in SageTV

I'm not using DVBLogic, all my tuners (2 x TBS6984) are native. DVBLogic is classified as a network encoder however it is somehow supported natively by SageTV as you don't have "the pause" on live TV as you normally do with any other network encoder like DVBE4SAGE or LMGestion. I personally prefer tuners which are natively supported and nowadays with the majority of the tuners having BDA drivers support (thanks to WMC requirement) you shouldn't have any problem to make your tuner working with SageTV natively.
I'm only using FTA channels at the moment, however if you have a valid subscription card and you need to watch encrypted channels your either buy a tuner card with a CAM interface (SageTV natively supports that in V7) or you need to use DVBLogic/DVBE4SAGE/LMGestion network encoders which support software decryption, however I'm currently writing a DirectShow filter that will act as decrypter for any native DVB (C/S/T) tuner card, so you won't need any network encoder solution anymore.

3) I see that you are the author of a SageTV7 plugin that automates updating after periodic changes in frequency.
- First, how often are these changes in frequency.
- Second, does the plugin have any specific requirements (Sage using the card direct vs any particular encoder)
- Third, does the plugin semi automate initial setup even if the SageTV default freq files are out of date.

The tuning parameters can change any time without notice, typically broadcasters do these changes at the begin or at the end of a month, but this is not a general rule. The plugin only supports SageTV native tuner, so network encoders are not supported. The plugin is able to generate a complete list of all channels for a particular satellite or keep up to date existing frequency files at every EPG change, but the channel name must match, see the plugin thread for more information.

Thank you for your advice on epg sourcing. I use Stephane's importer myself. Getting listings is a major hassle in Asia where I live at the moment (I use tvxb but invested many many hours in debugging and reacting when webpages change). After that I'm hoping that sourcing epg info in the UK will be a piece of cake.

There are also free EPG solution in the UK, but I recommend DigiGuide as is the most comprehensive and accurate of all and the subscription cost is very low, a good value for money in my opinion.

BTW the old recommendation on a Win7 box was to put SageTV in a directory outside of C:\program fles... to avoid UAC complications.
is that no longer an issue (my working install at the moment is SageTV v6 on xp!)

Sorry, cannot comment on that, I have SageTV V7 on Win XP Pro 32bit.

Eddy

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by something fishy

BTW the old recommendation on a Win7 box was to put SageTV in a directory outside of C:\program fles... to avoid UAC complications.
is that no longer an issue (my working install at the moment is SageTV v6 on xp!)

That is one way. Another is to disable UAC completely - which is what I did. It may not be the best way but I didn't like the UAC concept anyway. Now if Microsoft had done this from Win95 and up and enforced it I might think otherwise - but they didn't.

[sota]

As the TBS 6984 is discontinued, can anyone confirm that the TBS 6985 replacement works in native mode with SageTV? I know it should work, but it's an expensive card so it would be nice to know in advance of ordering it if anyone has had success with it.

Thanks.

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by sota

As the TBS 6984 is discontinued, can anyone confirm that the TBS 6985 replacement works in native mode with SageTV? I know it should work, but it's an expensive card so it would be nice to know in advance of ordering it if anyone has had success with it.

Thanks.

Hi,

there is a thread dedicated to the TBS6985 HERE already.

It might be a good idea to merge your question there...maybe you'll have better chances to get a reply

Eddy

[something fishy]

@ Routerunner
I wonder if you can give me a little more help. Status so far:
- The sageTV box is built working fine serving video off my NAS.
- I have installed the TBS6985, sage sees all four tuners natively (I can’t test ATM I have no local satellite dish).
- I have installed digiguide, Stephane’s importer and Birtles grabber. I can get usable xmltv either from Birtles grabber or DG2XML.
- I have installed your DVB-S importer and used it to generate a complete frequency listing for all channels on Astra 28.2.

I have a couple more questions if that's ok:

1.You were kind enough to post this PredefinedDVBS.frq file in response to another thread. Is it still current?:

#fec_rate:     1:fec1/2, 2:fec2/3, 3:fec3/4, 4:fec3/5, 5:fec4/5, 6:fec5/6, 7:fec5/11, 8:fec7/8, 9:fec8/9 (14:fec9/10)
#
#fec:          1:VBC, 2:RS/2048, 3:maximum
#polarisation: 1:linear_H, 2:Linear_V, 3:Circular_L, 4:Circular_R
#modualtion:   1:16QAM:1, 2:32QAM, 3:64QAM, 4:80QAM, 5:96QAM, 6:112QAM, 7:128QAM, 8:160QAM, 9:192QAM, 10:224QAM, 
#              11:256QAM, 12:320QAM, 13:384QAM, 14:448QAM, 15:512QAM, 16:640QAM, 17:768QAM, 18:896QAM, 19:1024QAM, 
#              20:QPSK, 21:BPSK, 22:OQPSK, 23:8VSB:23, 24:16VSB 31:NBC_QPSK 32:NBC_8PSK
#
#  frq:11914000 rate:27500 mod:30 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1
#  frq:12522000 rate:22000 mod:30 fec_rate_in:3  pol:2

"Astra (28.2)"
	frq:10773000 rate:22000 fec_rate_in:6 pol:1
	frq:10788000 rate:22000 fec_rate_in:6 pol:2
	frq:11222000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:2 pol:1
	frq:11224000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:2 pol:2
	{AUTO}

"Astra (19.2)"
	frq:11876000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:12721000 rate:22000 mod:32 fec_rate_in:2 pol:1 roll:35 pilot:0
	frq:11914000 rate:27500 mod:31 fec_rate_in:14 pol:1 roll:35 pilot:1 
	frq:12580000 rate:22000 mod:32 fec_rate_in:2 pol:2 roll:35 pilot:1
	frq:12522000 rate:22000 mod:32 fec_rate_in:2 pol:2 roll:35 pilot:1
	frq:12610000 rate:22000 fec_rate_in:6 pol:2
	frq:12581000 rate:22000 mod:30 fec_rate_in:2  pol:2
	frq:10788000 rate:22000 fec_rate_in:6  pol:2 
	frq:11758000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1 
	frq:11798000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1 
	frq:12032000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1 
	frq:11973000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3  pol:2
	frq:12246000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3  pol:2
	frq:10773000 rate:22000 fec_rate_in:6  pol:1
	#{AUTO}

"Astra (23.5)"
	frq:11739000 rate:27500 mod:31 fec_rate_in:6 pol:2
	frq:11798000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1
	frq:12109000 rate:27500 mod: 31 fec_rate_in:14 pol:1
	frq:12914000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1
	frq:11856000 rate:27500 mod:31 fec_rate_in:6 pol:2
	frq:12129000 rate:27500 mod:31 fec_rate_in:6 pol:2
	frq:12188000 rate:27500 mod:31 fec_rate_in:6 pol:1

"HotBird 6/7A/8 (13.0)"
	frq:11996000 rate:27500 mod:32 fec_rate_in:2 pol:2 roll:35 pilot:1
	frq:11449000 rate:27500 mod:32 fec_rate_in:2 pol:1 roll:35 pilot:1
	frq:10723000 rate:29900 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:11013000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:11034000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:3  pol:2
	frq:11200000 rate:27500 fec_rate_in:6  pol:2

"Eutelsat W2 (16.0)"
	frq:10957000 rate:28210 fec_rate_in:2  pol:1
	frq:11025000 rate:28940 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:12538000 rate:43400 fec_rate_in:1  pol:1
	frq:12683000 rate:28940 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1

"Nimiq 1 (91.0)"
	frq:12224000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:6  pol:2
	frq:12326000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:8  pol:1
	frq:12355000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:8  pol:1
	frq:12384000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:8  pol:1
	frq:12472000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:8  pol:1
	frq:12530000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:8  pol:1
	frq:12559000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:8  pol:1

"Nimiq 2 (-82.0)"
	frq:12297000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:6  pol:3
	frq:12501000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:6  pol:3
	frq:12516000 rate:20000 fec_rate_in:6  pol:4

"EchoStar (61.5)"
	frq:000 rate:0 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:000 rate:0 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:000 rate:0 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:000 rate:0 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:000 rate:0 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:000 rate:0 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1

"OPTUS D1 (160.0 E)"
	frq:12456000 rate:22500 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1
	frq:12483000 rate:22500 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1

"OPTUS C1 (156.0 E)"
	frq:12305000 rate:30000 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1
	frq:12358000 rate:27800 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1
	frq:12438000 rate:27800 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1
	frq:12448000 rate:27800 fec_rate_in:3 pol:2
	frq:12518000 rate:27800 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1
	frq:12527000 rate:30000 fec_rate_in:3 pol:2
	frq:12598000 rate:27800 fec_rate_in:3 pol:1
	frq:12607000 rate:27800 fec_rate_in:3 pol:2


"PAS 8 (166.0)"
	frq:12726000 rate:28066 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:12686000 rate:28124 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:12646000 rate:28066 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:12575000 rate:13845 fec_rate_in:2  pol:1
	frq:12286000 rate:28800 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:12326000 rate:28800 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:12526000 rate:28800 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1

"Canal Digital Thor3/5 (0.8)"
	frq:11389000 rate:24500 fec_rate_in:8  pol:1
	frq:11309000 rate:24500 fec_rate_in:8  pol:2
	frq:11403000 rate:24500 fec_rate_in:8  pol:2
	frq:11421000 rate:25000 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:11434000 rate:25000 fec_rate_in:3  pol:2
	frq:12051000 rate:30000 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1
	frq:12504000 rate:28000 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1




#frq:000 rate:0 fec_rate_in:3  pol:1

2. Also from your instructions I created TBS-6985-BDA-Digital-Capture-A-DVBS-0.lnb through the SageTv front end. Is this still correct.

#LNB setup for TBS 6985 BDA Digital Capture A DVBS
sat_no:0
sat_name:"Astra (28.2)"
LNB=9750-10600-11700 pos:None opt:None

3. I used your DVB-S importer to generate the first frequency listing. Will this ensure that the names are a case-perfect match to www.kingofsat.net

4. It appears that in this initial frq file;

CH:0	onid:2	tsid:2041	sid:9211	frq:10714250	rate:22000	mod:20	pol:1	fec_rate_in:6	pilot:0	sat:0	ctrl:1	#:Channel 4 London
CH:1	onid:2	tsid:2041	sid:9212	frq:10714250	rate:22000	mod:20	pol:1	fec_rate_in:6	pilot:0	sat:0	ctrl:1	#:Channel 4 South & East
CH:2	onid:2	tsid:2041	sid:9213	frq:10714250	rate:22000	mod:20	pol:1	fec_rate_in:6	pilot:0	sat:0	ctrl:1	#:Channel 4 Midlands
… …
… …
CH:768	onid:2	tsid:2604	sid:54360	frq:12643000	rate:27500	mod:20	pol:2	fec_rate_in:2	pilot:0	sat:0	ctrl:1	#:Discount TV
CH:769	onid:2	tsid:2604	sid:54365	frq:12643000	rate:27500	mod:20	pol:2	fec_rate_in:2	pilot:0	sat:0	ctrl:1	#:Studio 66 TV 4

Just has channel numbers generated sequentially by the plugin. Can walk me through the next step. I was planning to
A) Delete unneeded channels from the frq file
B) Reorder it to be human readable

I’ve been testing with Stephane’s XMLTV importer and it seems that there are two ways I can then proceed.

A) Link to the frq file when I define the channel lineups in the importer. This appears to take the channel numbers and names as they appear in the frq file and lets me link to the channels in the xmltv file from the drop box on the right of the channel lineups definition grid.
B) Don’t link to the frq file but create the lineup from the xmlTV file. This creates the channel IDs and names as they appear in the xmlTV file. Do I then set the “physical channel” number to match the CH:xxx at the start of each line in the frq file?

When completed are these two techniques equivalent as far as sageTV is concerned?

BTW do you know what’s the state of play with running digiguide as a service; all the stuff on the net seems old (but not especially encouraging).

Cheers

Eric

[routerunner]

Hi Eric,

I think you have done quite an excellent job .

I'm replying here to keep the post short if you don't mind.

- I have installed digiguide, Stephane’s importer and Birtles grabber. I can get usable xmltv either from Birtles grabber or DG2XML.

I don't recommend to use DG2XML as it has issues with episodes numbering, so the right sequence is to set Digiguide to export data by using its webserver interface and use only Birtles to grab the data from that webserver interface, faster and better; also you'll need a plugin I made long time ago for the Birtles to fix some non HTML compliant characters generated by the Digiguide interface, but that can be done later don't worry.

1. Because you're using my DVB-S importer to get the channel tuning parameters and the Stephane's importer to insert the XTMLTV data into SageTV EPG and therefore linking Logical (EPG) to Physical (FRQ) channels, the PredefinedDVBS.frq is not necessary anymore.

2. Correct, the file is generated by SageTV when you add a tuner and the name convention used is strictly dependent from the tuner driver. My DVB-S importer uses that name convention automatically.

3. Perfect

4. Just open the FRQ file with a text editor (avoid Notepad please) and remove all the lines (from channel #0 to the last one only) that you don't need, then rename the channel numbers as you like remembering to keep at least a space or tab between the channel number and the "onid" field.

Both techniques are good, probably in your case [A] is better because once you've finished to organize your FRQ files as you want you can import it and as you said the logical and physical channels will match as they should. In case you go for [B], yes you have to perform the channels link manually and there is no difference for SageTV. Also bear in mind that the "Call Sign" column in the Stephane's importer is the name used by SageTV to display the channels name in the EPG and you're free to change it to whatever you like, but the very same name (not case sensitive) is used to find the station logo filename in "<SageTV installation dir>/ChannelLogos" to display in the EPG as well, so you need to be consistent.

BTW do you know what’s the state of play with running digiguide as a service; all the stuff on the net seems old (but not especially encouraging).

Digiguide is not running as a Windows service per say is only running minimized in the tray, therefore you need to have you're server logged in when you perform the EPG update, so this is what I do:

- At 7:00AM the SageTV server PC starts up with the automatic login option set, the Digiguide program is set to start when Windows starts.
- At 7:05AM Digiguide performs its EPG update.
- At 7:15AM Stephane's importer is set to run the grabbers (I have more than one as we are a multilingual speaking family with multiple LNBs configuration dish).
- When Stephane's importer has finished, the DVB-S Importer kicks in automatically going through your FRQ files updating you're current lineup data if necessary.
- At 9:00AM the SageTV server performs an auto log off.
- At 1:00AM the SageTV server shut down.

I hope this helps, but please come back if you have further questions, also all the above is for FTA channels only of course.

Eddy

[something fishy]

@ Routerunner
Thank you for this; you've been a great help. It's nice to be back in the Sage community and find it's still a great source of supply; Sage has been an appliance for me for about four years so I've become a very infrequent visitor.

@ anyone
Stephane's importer seems a little random in whether it will run the birtles grabber (console version) or, for that manner, DG2XML. On my existing SageTV box running XP its been flawless launching tvxb for me, is there anything special I need to do for it in Win 7 (UAC is disabled).

Does the importer check the age of the XML file (it seems to run the grabber more consistenly if I delete the XML file first)?

Thx

Eric

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by something fishy

@ Routerunner
Thank you for this; you've been a great help. It's nice to be back in the Sage community and find it's still a great source of supply; Sage has been an appliance for me for about four years so I've become a very infrequent visitor.

No problem, glad I can be of help. How you're getting on with your preparation? I can see that you want to be ready straight away when you'll be back

Did you manage to get the data from DigiGuide without DG2XML? If not I can help you on that.

Eddy

[something fishy]

@routerunner
All good on Digiguide and the birtles grabber thank you. Box is now bedding in; obviously can't see any UK satellites as its in Hong Kong, but its a passively cooled case so I want to get a feel for temperatures (high, even with WD Greens, but very stable and seeminly little affected by disk load - I ran a couple of long SMART tests - I presume that the whole case is now heatsoaked) and any potential stability issues.
Cheers
Eric

[something fishy]

OK I've hit an "I don't know why it does that" moment.

I have the box set up and running in the UK.

The plugin is correctly pulling in the data from kingofsat (verified by comparing the frq file against the website), however sage is incorrectly tuning some channels.

For example, BBC3 is tuning to BBC Alba and BBC4 is tuning to ITV2.
I have tried a manual channel scan and copying the frequency information for these channels from the frq file that this creates into my manually created frq file (turning off the routerunner plugin temporarily to avoid overwriting) does not solve the problem, it stays BBC alba rather than BBC3 and ITV2 instead of BBC4.

Its almost as though there is something in a properties file somewhere that is overriding the frq file (or I have the dish pointed at a different satellite except I don't think there is one).
To try and solve the problem I have tried:
1) deleting the epg/xxx lines from the sage.properties file and adding the tuner
2) deleting the wiz.bin and wiz.bak file and then adding the tuner.
Same result both times.

Any ideas anyone?
Thanks
Eric

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by something fishy

OK I've hit an "I don't know why it does that" moment.

I have the box set up and running in the UK.

The plugin is correctly pulling in the data from kingofsat (verified by comparing the frq file against the website), however sage is incorrectly tuning some channels.

For example, BBC3 is tuning to BBC Alba and BBC4 is tuning to ITV2.
I have tried a manual channel scan and copying the frequency information for these channels from the frq file that this creates into my manually created frq file (turning off the routerunner plugin temporarily to avoid overwriting) does not solve the problem, it stays BBC alba rather than BBC3 and ITV2 instead of BBC4.

Its almost as though there is something in a properties file somewhere that is overriding the frq file (or I have the dish pointed at a different satellite except I don't think there is one).
To try and solve the problem I have tried:
1) deleting the epg/xxx lines from the sage.properties file and adding the tuner
2) deleting the wiz.bin and wiz.bak file and then adding the tuner.
Same result both times.

Any ideas anyone?
Thanks
Eric

I reckon the logical channel number (the one shown on the EPG) doesn't match the physical channel (the one on the FRQ file).

Please run through the tuner setup > Channel setup listing where you can check whether the association is correct.

Also, if you're using the LM XMLTV Importer for the EPG check that the numbers are consistent.

Thanks
Eddy

[deanm]

Hi Eric

If you send me a PM with your email address I will send you the link to download a beta version of DDAC (DigiGuide DVB-S Auto Config). I'm going to post the links on here soon.

This should get ride of your issues as it configures everything for you. No need to scan frq files of config XMLTV

Dean.

[something fishy]

@routerunner
Thanks for the pointers, I'll try and check and revert (will require an RDP session from the other side of the world).

@deanm
Thank you for the offer. I am out of the UK at the moment so there is no rush, I can wait for you to post the link publicly but a single integrated solution from digiguide to frq files is certainly attractive.

Neither of you have experienced anything similar to this - ie you don't think that its an "undocumented feature"?

Cheers

Eric

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by something fishy

Neither of you have experienced anything similar to this - ie you don't think that its an "undocumented feature"?

No, it is not a special feature I'm afraid and if it was it will be very annoying indeed

I'm almost positive is a discrepancy between the logical and physical channel number.

Cheers
Eddy

[something fishy]

@routerunner
Thanks
I'll try and open a vpn tunnel to my sage box in the UK and have a look.

BTW you're right on it being annoying. Theres only so much BBC Alba one man can take (its about 37 seconds in fact).

Cheers

Eric