Why bother with the Roslyn card?

[SteveP]

I had a Roslyn card for a few days a couple of weeks ago. I gave up and traded it in on a 250 MCE. My system works fine now. Why does the Roslyn card exist? It doesn't seem to offer any benefits only trouble. I'm intetested in finding out if there are going to be any benefits for future reference when I'm ready to buy another tuner.

Steve

[BergoniaC]

The Roslyn card is cheaper to produce hence, cheaper the purcahse. Atleast that is what I have been told. I have been lucky and my Roslyn card work right out of the box, no problems. The only thing that doesn't work is the FM tuner but I knew that before buying the card. Other than the FM tuner, which I assume is a driver/software issue, there is no added future features. The most logical step up would be a Roslyn 350 card, which would have the added benefit of Mpeg Encode and Decode.

[kny3twalker]

well the roslyn has the ability to capture aVI and has the ability to show a live preview
which SageTV has said they will in future support

[mls]

I have 2 trains of thought about the Roslyn, but I am not sure either are actually true or not.

First, the Roslyn is supposedly Hauppauges version based on the original Conexant Blackbird "reference" design card.

The Blackbird itself, as a "reference" design would then appear to have been just to show how the various circuitry could be used to produce different functionallity. It had a seperate tuner to allow avi capture, or that video could be routed thru an encoder chip for MPEG capture. It also had an MPEG decoder and video out circuitry, along with an FM tuner.

As such, the Roslyn (being cheaper) could simply be a way to get rid of a large amount of leftover, old, outdated parts just to clear out a warehouse somewhere.

- OR-

The MCE and Roslyn appear to be very suspiciously similar. To use the MCE card people would have to buy an brand new computer with Windows Media Center Edition pre-installed (since Microsoft would not sell/distribute any other way).

Since only a very limited number of people would shell out the extra bucks to buy a whole new computer (plus extra for Windows MCE on it also) just to make use of the MCE cards... It could be possible that Hauppauge has an over stock of parts for those, and again may simply be trying to clear out that extra stock of parts by using them on the Roslyn.

Oddly, over at shspvr.com, several people are actually using the MCE drivers instead of the Roslyn drivers and having some success with doing so.

Either way, they still have not managed to get all the bugs out of the drivers for the Roslyn. I suspect that is mostly due to all the possible input/output cababilites it may have (which oddly is very similar to all the driver headaches of ATI's All-in-Wonder series that has similar in/out capabilites).

All of this makes me very suspicious about just what Hauppauge is up to, or what their future game plan is. However, as I said I really don't know either. Just guessing.

[kny3twalker]

Oddly, over at shspvr.com, several people are actually using the MCE drivers instead of the Roslyn drivers and having some success with doing so.

those are the same drivers
both the drivers for the roslyn board distributed by Frey and the drivers for the roslyn's to use in MCE at SHS's are the same

and this card is nothing like an ATI All in Wonder
but more like a ATI E Home Wonder

[mls]

Originally posted by kny3twalker
those are the same drivers
both the drivers for the roslyn board distributed by Frey and the drivers for the roslyn's to use in MCE at SHS's are the same

and this card is nothing like an ATI All in Wonder
but more like a ATI E Home Wonder

The file naming/numbers of the one for the MCE that SHS had told me to try do not match up with the two different driver files I have gotten from Frey. It is possible though that the MCE one may be the same as one of those from Frey underneath with just a diff filename though (haven't fully investigated that yet).

Not sure about the E Home Wonder, but under device manager for my AIW it lists:

Audio
Video
Crossbar
Tuner
and a couple Codecs

While for the Roslyn it lists:

Audio
Video
Crossbar
Tuner
MPEG Encoder

Too me, that looks like the same mess of driver problems, especially since the PVR-250 and USB2 only list one thing: Encoder (which is propably why the 250's don't have all the Roslyn problems).

Since the Roslyn has a seperate chip for video to digital conversion and another for MPEG conversion, I suspect it is capable of avi capture (just like the AIW). The 250 has the video and MPEG converters in one chip (more expensive), which would not allow avi capture.

Somewhere, someone just isn't telling us the full details of what they are up to with the Roslyn. But, clearly it will be prone to more driver problems than the 250 (just by the number of items listed in device manager that are involved).

[justme]

The 250 has the video and MPEG converters in one chip (more expensive), which would not allow avi capture.

MLS,
Some of what you say about the hardware layout of the Roslyn(blackbirds) and PVR250s isn't quite accurate. I don't believe it's intentional, it's just hard to talk about the way these cards work and exactly how they differ unless you use exactly the correct technical terms. Rather than me go over a horse that's been beaten to death, not to mention the fact I may well mis-speak myself... I suggest anyone interested in the difference see this site. They have a great review of the 250(all major variants) and the later Blackbird(Roslyn) designs. They list the major chips used to process the signal for each design.

Many people believe that the reason for the Roslyns/blackbirds is to allow easier/(more relieable/stable) intergration of AVI capture into software(be it BTV, SageTV, MCE). The chips(notice the plural) used in the earlier(analog to digital) stages of AV signal processing by the PVR250 are a little less common(as far as software is used to) than the chip(notice the singuliar) used by the Roslyn.

There is obviously a finicial incentive to all this since Hauppauge is a company. I'm personally not up on all the supply availablity of these different chip types but I suspect the fact that the blackbirds use chips that other TV software is used to seeing(my M150 blackbird worked with Dscaler monthes before Sage could use it) would mean that those chips are more widely used by other existing TV cards. Usually anything that is more widely used becomes cheaper to produce as more are made. So if this is true and the chips used by the blackbird's early stage are more common/cheaper and the new Conexant blackbird design allows for easier AVI capture... Well you can see why anyone would make such a card.

I also suspect the demand to provide PVR cards for MCE OEMS has put pressure on Hauppauge. It would be common sense to have two card families that are MCE capable and that can use diferent chips for certian sections. But that part is definitely a total guess. I guess in the end it all comes down to"Why did Conexant feel the need to make a newer refence design?" Maybe it was part cost. Maybe it was an expanded feature set. Maybe it has something to do with Microsoft, given that these blackbird cards started out in MCE boxes. Like all things, it's probably a little of each.

By making the Roslyn Hauppauge gets a virtually garuanteed large number of sales, thanks to Microsoft's MCE systems. But at the same time the large number of cards produced will drive down the costs, not to mention Microsoft can put pressure on any company they want. With the PVR250 Hauppauge doesn't have to worry about Microsoft and the market(HTPC users) has already been conditioned to expect the current PVR250 cost. In the end I'm guessing that Hauppauge is doing the same thing many manufacturers do... Sell one product to an established audience that expects higher prices and sell another similiar product(at a lower cost) to a new audience.

Most of the above is just what I've gathered from reading. I don't claim to be an expert and please correct me if I said anything incorrect/inaccurate.

In the end once the driver issues* of the Roslyn are worked out there will be little real world(user perspective) difference between the Roslyn and the PVR250. Likely by then Hauppauge with stop selling the PVR250, or at least have to drop it's price to match the Rolyns. Once(If they ever are) the price's are equal I can't see Hauppauge continuing to make the PVR250, much longer(not that this would happen anytime soon). Still by that time the whole market may have changed and who knows what great new toys will exist.

*Just an FYI, the PVR250 had many similiar driver issues when it first came out.

[mls]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I honestly do not know for sure either and am only guessing at some things. And, I am by no means an expert on all the various video capture hardware and chips.

Some of the info on the site you linked to does not quite match up with the info provided on Conexant's own web site either. A large factor in just what cababilites the Roslyn card may (or may not have) depends on how Hauppauge has wired the boards along with what support they build into the drivers. As such, one really can not tell for sure what capabilities different cards made by different manufactures may have even if they have the same chips on the boards.

You did bring up a point I had made, and it is an important one also. If the Roslyn is actually capable of avi capture this would allow Hauppauge to compete with several other companies whose boards do only avi capture (and MPEG conversion thru software instead of hardware).

This is important for anyone that wants to do very high quality video capture and editing. People doing that sort of work would never capture in MPEG format. The conversion to MPEG would be the last step in final production after editing and just before burning to DVD.

For the most part Hauppauge has focused on the lower CPU usage to allow capturing with a hardware MPEG encoder. That has made them one of the leaders in that field.

However, if they can now also produce a card that can do both high quality avi capture along with high quality MPEG encoding and do it a lower cost, that would give them a considerable edge over the competition.

Unfortunately, today many products are rushed out to market before they have made thru the complete design phase and full testing just to have a jump on the competition. I feel this may be what has happened with the Roslyn.

I know it took some time to resolve the driver issues with the PVR-250 and the Roslyn will probibly go thru a similar period of driver developement and improvement. It is also possible that at some point they may even decide to change the chips used just as they did with the PVR-250.

Since Hauppauge has not yet released full details of the Roslyn design and their qoals, all we can do is speculate on what it may develop into. At this point it just has not evolved to the level of usability, stability, and reliability as the PVR-250. That does not mean it will not do so in time.

As for the prices and which cards they may continue with in the future, that has far too many variables to even try to predict at the moment.

[cmaffia]

Originally posted by SteveP
I had a Roslyn card for a few days a couple of weeks ago. I gave up and traded it in on a 250 MCE. My system works fine now. Why does the Roslyn card exist? It doesn't seem to offer any benefits only trouble. I'm intetested in finding out if there are going to be any benefits for future reference when I'm ready to buy another tuner.

Steve

Now that they have found the manual fix for the Roslyns PQ and it will be implement in the new drivers... I am glad to admit that the Roslyn, to my eyes, a hair lengths better than my PVR-250 MCE. I would imagine this card will only get better.

[SHS]

Why new board layout well that eazy to cut down on number of chip being used which it the same thing what 3Dfx did with Voodoo + 2D core = Banshee or Voodoo 2 + 2D core = Voodoo 3,4,5 but in this case with Blackbird board they marred there own ver of Philips SAA7115HL Video Digitizer, Micronas MSP3435 Audio Processor and Conexant Fusion 878A video decoder into all one package which is Conexant CX23880 and I'm sure some day they get around to Integrated Silicon Tuner and Hardware Encoder in to one chip and add more new features.
Yes I agree with you 100% the way there doing the drivers is a bit of a joke which has nothing to do with Hauppauge being there base on Conexant Reference Drivers they worte the driver in first place.

Most you don't that there a new Conexant Reference Design Featuring a CX25843 A/V Decoder where they marred there own ver of Philips SAA7115HL Video Digitizer, Micronas MSP3435 Audio Processor into all one package which is Conexant CX25843

Conexant need sit down and build new ver of CX23415 but at much lower die size and add MPEG-4 encoding support for both CX23415/16.

Yes what justme what said at end is ture just about all new product that come now days have some kind driver issues.

[carlgar]

Originally posted by SHS
Yes what justme what said at end is ture just about all new product that come now days have some kind driver issues.

While this may be true, it should not be. When consumers stop buying new products because of driver issues I am sure that it will stop. I personally believe that driver issues are caused by inexperienced people are placed in positions that require experience. However, it could also be caused by Hauppauge chosing to use hareware chips that have no or incomplete documentation. Neither one of those conditions should be acceptable. The lack of documentation seems to be an acceptable standard in todays world, SageTV 2.0 for an example that everyone should be aware of.

[SHS]

carlgar it don't always work that way no 2 system are like even with the same parts no matter how well the drivers where wirting one of biggest problem shear number diff system config.
Thoses Inexperienced Engineering people you are ref to have been at Hauppauge for more 5+years and I think few them have been there as long Hauppauge has been there s 1994 when they first start the compy.
I agree with lack of consumer documentation in ref to eazy option to tweak the card.

[carlgar]

Originally posted by SHS
carlgar it don't always work that way no 2 system are like even with the same parts no matter how well the drivers where wirting one of biggest problem shear number diff system config.

While it may be true it should not cause the type of problems that are occuring. As long as the same OS is being used, the drivers should work the same. Since I have never written a driver for a MS operating system it is quite possible that they have completely screwed that up. The purpose of the OS is too provide a common interface for different types of hardware. I don't think the problems have been related to the type of system but more related to configurating their own cards properly. I will concede that you probably have a much better idea of what is happening at Hauppauge than I do. I have worked at hardware companies and have seen the effects of how hardware engineers attempting to write drivers can and have destroyed good products. Hauppauge is probably the only ones that know for sure what the issues are. Even if thier programmers have 5 years of experience, I was not impressed by the application software that came standard with 350 card. I do not recall encountering any problem with it. It was just very limited in what it did, for example when recording, I could not watch another program.

BTW: much of my early career consisted of porting software from one hardware vendor to another. This was before there was a common OS, so there was much more work to make it work the same on all computers.

Anyway I think this thread should try to get back on topic

[mls]

We should all also note that Hauppauge does not even market the Roslyn directly to the public (yet). That tends to make be believe that they themselves do not consider it a fully developed product yet.

Many companies will distribute new products thru smaller back channels in order to gather reports on what needs to be fixed, changed, or improved. This is necessary in order to gather feedback from a much wider group of people using in more environments than they have resources to test it in themselves. Then, later after gathering as much info as they can, they can get the product fully developed for sale to the general public.

Some time back, Dan (Frey CEO) had told me they planned to "phase out" the PVR-250 (since they were having difficulty getting a supply of them) and would be selling the Roslyn instead (which they could get more easily and would be less expensive). I do not honestly believe that Frey was aware of the large number of problems with the Roslyn at that time, so I can not blame them for making such a decision.

In time, the Roslyn problems will all eventually get resolved. It's just going to take a while for them to work out the bugs.

There is some good news though! I noticed that Frey has managed to get a few more PVR-250's back in stock and are selling them thru their on-line store for a "limited time only".

Get 'em while you can!

[SHS]

Yup that ture mls it was gear toward OEM market and yes that ture on 2nd part but out all Roslyn that have sold only hand full poeple are having problem.

[justme]

Sorry if some of these points are a little out of snyc. I've been busy since my last post

mls wrote:Some of the info on the site you linked to does not quite match up with the info provided on Conexant's own web site either.

Interesting, I did not know that. Could you post a link(or PM if you feel it's OT) and point me towards the general differnces. It's mainly just intelectual curiousity, but I try to keep up on these things best I can.

mls wrote: A large factor in just what cababilites the Roslyn card may (or may not have) depends on how Hauppauge has wired the boards along with what support they build into the drivers.

Excellent point. After all Conexant only came up with a "reference" design. Each manufacturer can deviate from that design as they see fit. Generally I've noticed that most companies follow the circuit design fairly accurately and often leave out/add features in the driver set. But that experiance is just what I've noticed with Video card manufacturers. Who knows how/if it applies to TV card makers. This brings us back to what you pointed out, that it all depends on what Hauppauge decided to do.

SHS wrote:Most you don't that there a new Conexant Reference Design Featuring a CX25843 A/V Decoder where they marred there own ver of Philips SAA7115HL Video Digitizer, Micronas MSP3435 Audio Processor into all one package which is Conexant CX25843...Conexant need sit down and build new ver of CX23415 but at much lower die size and add MPEG-4 encoding support for both CX23415/16.

I find the fact that there is another Conexant refence design out there very intersting. I'd also really love to see Conexant come out with a CX23415/16 variant/successor that could do Mpeg4 encoding. At the very least a newer chip based on a smaller die size is an obvious next step, but if you're going to do that why not "improve" the chip, in other ways, at the same time like you suggest.

SHS wrote:but out all Roslyn that have sold only hand full poeple are having problem.

This is the unfortunate thing with forums like this, and even your great site. That few people actually go to them unless they are having problems. This can often lead to the impression of a problem being more widespread than it is. Of course in a perfect world we'd never have to worry about drivers issues or lack of complete information.

PS to mls:
I lust wanted to be sure you didn't feel I was launching a personel attack. I just like a good informed debate. I think this thread has ask and brought up many valid points. Look at the people who've chosen to comment, I think that shows the debate is interesting.

/justme

[Ian Norman]

Hi All
Just to reinforce most users comment
Here's my 2 cents worth.

Conexants involvement in "hardware mpeg encoders" is rather recent, in fact they have never designed one.
It all started with a company called Brooktree. They were famous for the BT848/878 series of chips used on many TV Tuner/ capture cards over the years. Rockwell Semiconductors bought Brooktree and a few years later decided not to be involved in video/graphics and sold that division to the shareholders which became Conexant.

Conexant did not design the CX23415/6 used in PVR250/350's. The basic design of the PVR250/350 was created by Internext Compression who sold the designs to Globespan, who merged with Virata who sold the CX23415/6 to Conexant.

Conexants decision to make a "new Reference design" was for a couple of reasons:-
1)To keep the manufacturing costs down by incorporating all the necessary electronic components into 2 chips.
2)To make a capture card as it should be made which copies the principles of many other successful capture cards which is made up of a "Mpeg Encoder" and "Multimedia Bridge"

The "Blackbird" design is nothing unusual. The most inovative thing is the CX23880 has Video and Audio ADC's and DAC's built in rather than using 4 other chips like the some other capture cards have, that's a big saving, in fact it halves the cost.

The "Blackbird" doesn't really have any new or wonderful abilities that other properly designed capture cards don't have. It can capture AVI and you can software encode that on the fly to whatever format you like, great for those who are into DIVX or other codecs, and of course you can have an onscreen live undelayed preview if you wish ( application dependant)

As for the entries in the Device Manager:-
Video = For the CX23880 which sends both encoded and unencoded video down the PCI bus at the same time.
Audio = The Audio Stream that's sent down the PCI Bus which is encoded by the CX23416 so you can have the encoded audio and video presented in sync without delay.
Encoder = The CX23416 mpeg encoder.

You need to remember that the original design that the PVR250/350 is based on is at least 6 years old. The fact they are as successful as they are is not only because of the good original design but also because of Hauppauge's marketing strategy.

Conexant are obviously doing great deals on the CX23880/CX23416 chipset most likely thanks to Microsoft XPMCE which keeps the "Blackbirds" price down, which in turn keeps Conexant's competitors out for the time being.

The PVR250 may be a popular capture card that works well and just because it's more expensive than a "Blackbird" does not mean it's better, in fact technically it's the exact opposite.
The PVR250 will have to leave the market because it's too expensive and Conexant will continue to reduce the price of the "Blackbirds" and at some stage they will combine the CX23880 and CX23416 in the same chip reducing the price again.

It's not possible to expect Hauppauge to get all the problems sorted out quickly simply because they make very little money out of selling a capture card.
Hauppauge market in that "supermarket" ( large food store ) type way that goes something like this :- make a couple of cents profit on every item of food you sell and at the end of the year you have made millions of dollars profit. Unfortunately Hauppauge doesn't sell millions of capture cards a year and so there are not lots of profits and in order to keep the competitors out they discount their products which leaves very little money left for design of new products and support on current products.

We get what we pay for and at this point in time we get a lot for under US$100.00

There is one more thing we all need to remember, The PVR250/350/blackbirds are domestic capture cards not professional. As long as there is a market out there for a professional or semi professional capture cards, you will never get perfection from a capture card worth less than US$100.00 as there would be no point in making a capture card worth US$1000.00 when something worth US$100.00 works as well, and you can buy capture cards worth US$1000.00 or more and they sell very well.

[stanger89]

Originally posted by justme
I'd also really love to see Conexant come out with a CX23415/16 variant/successor that could do Mpeg4 encoding.

I'd much rather see a version with HD MPEG2 encoding

[stanger89]

Originally posted by Ian Norman
The PVR250 may be a popular capture card that works well and just because it's more expensive than a "Blackbird" does not mean it's better, in fact technically it's the exact opposite.

I'd say the 250 is better than the Roslyn, mostly because it's been out much longer. If I remember correctly the 250 was rather flakey when it was released also.

[Stemcell]

I ordered a Roslyn card after doing some _very_ minor research. I must say I did a bit more research and regretted not having gone with a PVR 250. I considered sending it back but decided to give it a try as a return would have been a pain. It replaced an AIW 7500 card in my bedroom PC which I had just upgraded with the components from my old main PC, P4 2.4 Northwood, ASUS P4T-E RDRAM mobo and 9700 Pro. Adding the Roslyn card and installing the software went flawlessly and it worked perfectly out of the box, the client software works just fine too, well pleased with the whole package. I might be more concerned if it were my HTPC but as a PVR/Tivo type unit in my bedroom it is IMO nearly perfect.

My only problem is that the 9700 Pro/Roslyn combo with upgraded components in my bedroom is now a better setup then the HTPC connected to my Home Theater with a HDTV which utilizes an AIW 9700 Pro same speed P4 but it's mobo uses a the 845 chipset which only support single channel DDR @333.