Studio Release

[PGPfan]

I've cooled off somewhat over the truthful yet meaningless post by Dan to 'update' us on Studio.

I've spent the better part of 3 hours searching every post made regarding Studio, (at least the ones that still exist after the forum upgrade) and came upon a few interesting posts that I'll quote here.

What is Studio, some might ask? (post originally dated 8-20-2003)
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With the work we are trying to accomplish to release version 1.4 and the SageTV Studio, we do not have any plans to do enhancements to SageRecorder for now. We will revisit this once the Studio is complete............

Of course with the Studio you will essentially be able to completely reconfigure nearly everything possible that has to do with the user interface of SageTV. Essentially, you will be able to create your own Media Center skin for SageTV so a lot of features people have requested for SageRecorder will be covered off by the power of SageTV Studio. Keep an eye on this post: http://www.freytechnologies.com/for...=&threadid=1417 for more information.

Dan
__________________
Dan Kardatzke, CEO
Frey Technologies, LLC
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Followed by: (originally dated 8-13-2003)
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The Studio's coming along very nicely. I'm trying to get the first version out for testing to a limited number of people by the end of this month....and also finishing 1.4 for release.

Still trying to figure out a good way to explain what it does.....a new analogy I was thinking is that it's like WinAmp3's infinite cusotmizability; in terms of what you can do with the Studio is limitless. But Sage has its own custom language for doing all of this. And the main thing it adds, and this is what the Studio is, is a simple to use drag & drop interface with real-time results. That's right....infinite customization without having to edit XML files or anything weird like that...and its real-time too....for example you can drag a slider and watch the transparency/color/location/etc. of a component change in the UI right before your eyes.

The Studio is essentially an easy-to-use graphical development environment for the 2.0 version of the SageTV application. Maybe that explains it a little better....as well as added many questions in the process I'm sure.
__________________
Jeffrey Kardatzke
CTO
Frey Technologies, LLC
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As for why folks are dying to have it, and some feel like it's 'owed' them keep in mind some folks 'did' base their buying decisions on it being available. (I wasn't one of them, but some people did!) How could they come up with such 'crazy' ideas? It took some time (some threads are gone now) but this is the best I could come up with. Pay attention to the posing dates...

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The following question was asked: (dated 9-3-2003)
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"I thought sage2 is going to be a free upgrade, however the studio app (which is solely for skinning and design was going to be a seperate cost.

did i miss understand something?"
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The reply: (dated 9-3-2003)
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"This quote from the official Sage2 information thread should answer your question.

Quote:
This Studio application will come with SageTV2 at no extra charge. "
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So, do some people have a reason to feel that they are owed Studio? You tell me.

I think it's safe to say that we all wish to see SageTV succeed beyond any of our wildest dreams, I also think (atleast for myself) that the work that Jeff and Dan are doing is GREAT and we appreciate it tremendously. We equally appreciate the TREMENDOUS efforts that the few .stv creators have done - you guys are the blood that keeps Sage going!

We all come from diverse backgrounds, and as such we'd like to be able to contribute to SageTV. Nobody currently really 'knows' what or when any of us regular SageTV folks will ever see Studio. 'I' DO know that we do have a reason to be concerned about it current fate. I will not post on the Studio subject publicly again but I hope Frey Technologies does the right thing, and they know what that means.

-PGPfan

[ckron]

Nice detective work PGPfan! Did you see my post about a direct qoute from Narflex. His post is still in the forums and I gave a link. Just a little backup for your info.

[ruel]

geez whiz. looks like they've simply changed their mind about what they wanted to do about studio. you could hold their feet to the fire by quoting their previous words, but it seems like they simply changed their mind for whatever reason. it's really on target how users will point out words stated by anyone who is part of the official company behind a product. that's where the frey folks have since learned to bite their tongue because people who read the discussion forums will hold their feet to the fire after the words are posted. so the frey folks changed their mind. and so it's too bad for the various users who are really expecting studio and who are now griping about it becoming vaporware. studio has probably become one of frey's ace cards that they have since now want to hold on to. although various users want it now and i wouldn't blame them since i would like to play with it myself, but i also wouldn't blame the frey folks since it's their business decision to make even if it causes them some unfortunate controversy among various users. from a competitive standpoint i can see how really valuable that studio would be for the OEM market which is where frey can probably make a good amount of more money on a B2B basis instead of giving away studio or selling studio on an individual user basis. i can really understand those users who want it now, but at this point i wouldn't hope for studio to become available anytime soon because the frey folks simply don't want to release it.

fortunately, at least with the nielm STV customization (i don't know about the other custom STVs), you can at least edit the menu.xml file to do some personal customization yourself to change and tweak the sagetv menus which is what i would personally take for now since studio is not available. at least with the menu.xml file, i've been able to make my own changes to the menus that make sagetv much more satisfying to me.

ruel

[ckron]

ruel, what are smokin? I quoted Jeff himself, not just anyone. I just want what I paid for. I don't know about anyone else, but my copy of SageTV2 is incomplete without Studio. How do I know that? Jeff said so himself!!

[ruel]

sorry not smoking anything. and i know you were specifically quoting jeff. so good for you if want to hold his feet to the fire. and i would applaud yours and others efforts for trying to get studio released. ("Free Studio, Free Studio" is the chant i hear being shouted by users....) but i wouldn't hold my breath about getting studio since they've apparently changed their mind. i don't remember seeing studio in the sagetv advertising on the main sagetv website but only in the discussion forums but i guess they can be seen as one and the same by some people.

ruel

[mostlyfodder]

Originally Posted by samgreco

First, don't kill the new guy.

From my perspective, I feel that Frey's "advertising" was misleading. When I looked at different PVR applications last July to compare features, I decided to go with Sage for a few reasons. Most of those reasons still exist. BUT I did place the "upcoming" release of Studio high on the list.

Sam

just for perspective... my other favorite HTPC app, meedio, also implied that meedioTV would be out a lot sooner..

Originally Posted by samgreco

Now, if ANYONE offered a music module that was worth a damn...

Sam

sam, have you tried meedio? their mp3 handling is excellent especially for large collections. there's still room for improvement but hey...

-fodder

[mostlyfodder]

Originally Posted by flashbacck

And not releasing studio because it's "too complex" is silly.

flashbacck- i disagree w/ you on that point, but let's agree to disagree. regarding the complexity of sage/studio, i sure wish i could figure out how to get SPDIF to work. heck a lot of people are still waiting for sage to update it's mp3 player.

-fodder

[mostlyfodder]

Originally Posted by ckron

Try this link to see where I get my crazy idea that Studio is owed to me by Frey

http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ghlight=studio

Just in case the link doesn't work I am pasting in what Narflex stated in his post:

"The SageTV Studio is part of SageTV2 (some info found elsewhere on the forums, more details on it soon)."

Now I would like someone to argue with that! All I did to find this post was to do an advanced search for the keyword studio and a user name of Narflex.

hey that was an interesting thread linked to. there was a user question which generated about 3 or 4 responses from the sagetv developers. i think sage has grown a bit beyond their ability to answer all our questions. adding complexity (i.e. another product like studio) will worsen that situation. i sure hope development on SageTV continues. I thought meedioTV was going to be close but its prerelease versions have made me think, 'they should drop the TV and focus on what they've already done.'

oh well i'm 100% dependent on meedio & sage for now, and not too unhappy about that...

[mightyt]

PGPfan, I give you credit for cooling down and speaking with the voice of reason, and doing your homework. I've only been around since July 04 so I guess I don't have the degree of pent up frustration as others might from a year earlier.

That being said, I guess I also look at this from a few angles. Not hearing anything at all, hearing something I don't like and hearing I am pleasantly surprised and getting more than I expected.

Many have complained about not hearing anything. That's why I respect the fact that Dan posted "at all". He probably even knew once again he would tread in deep waters, but nonetheless "did" post. So, as far as I am concerned we shouldn't hear much fussing about silence for a while.

Now as for the content of what he said, I can understand the disappointment, though 2005 is only minutes away and frankly I'll be busy with the holiday season myself. But, if I were honest with myself I would have to still say this is not uncommon. How many remember hearing about this great 32bit OS/2 killer called Windows when we were all on 3.1. If you consider the fact that NT (like OS/2) was a dog on any available hardware of the time and had no app support and that even though at it's core is NT, (IMHO) XP was the first somewhat true stable (though vulnerable) 32bit OS MS put out with full 3rd party support and took almost 7 years to become a reality. Now we hear that the long promised Longhorn is years away, release date 2006, I mean 2007, I mean 2006 and will be robust, I mean only have a subset of promised features and have follow-on SP "upgrades", etc. I am used to waiting and dealing with SW/HW release changes. I remember waiting for the first IEEE ratified 56k modem to be released forever. I wish 802.11n were here now, I wish WirelessUSB were here, I wish Local Bus never came out, I wish I didn't buy any Microchannel Cards or 8-Track Tapes or Beta, but in some cases we all did and even had to wait for their release longer than promised, implied or otherwise to feed our unending desire for more technology. Face it we are tech addicts and we want it now, so when a real or perceived promise is made and we don't get our fix we go nuts ...

The point is, in the big picture, while we get all worked up about this, I think we may miss out of the cool possibilities already here in front of us, and may miss out on more by jumping ship, though everyone has the right to do as they please.

So, the great Studio debate continues and I wonder what will fill its gap in these forums once it does get released. But, for now I am going to see what Nielm, MlbDude, Jere Jones and Salsbst are up to ...

T.

[flashbacck]

Originally Posted by mostlyfodder

flashbacck- i disagree w/ you on that point, but let's agree to disagree. regarding the complexity of sage/studio, i sure wish i could figure out how to get SPDIF to work. heck a lot of people are still waiting for sage to update it's mp3 player.

-fodder

No damnit! I want you to acknowledge I'm right!



If we were talking about an official release, then yes, I'd agree releasing a difficult-to-use studio would probably not be the best idea.

Obviously studio does work. And given the option of waiting a few months for an official release, or taking a "beta" one, I'll take take the beta.

Now, AGREE WITH ME!

[kny3twalker]

i don't remember seeing studio in the sagetv advertising on the main sagetv website but only in the discussion forums

http://www.sage.tv/tech.html

With the following technologies, SageTV is on the forefront of Media Center market:

SageTV Client
Multiple Tuners
Networked Video Streaming
SageTV Studio

[Radar]

Maybe we should make this a poll!

• How many of you want Studio released so you can start programming with it (and already know Java)?
• How many want it released so you can change the colors and layout? (I'm in this category)
• How many want it released so more programmers will have access to it and you can use their STVs when they're done (without being able to offer anything back other than feedback)?

Personally I went with Sage because of the functionality of the PVR. Studio was part of my buying decision, as I liked the idea of being able to customize it, but there's no rush as I'm pretty happy with the current UI. Also, since I'm not much of a programmer outside of VB, I couldn't do much with it anyway.

Though I would like to figure out a way to hook in my XMPCR, but I can wait! Here's a suggestion: while waiting for Studio, everyone go learn Java!

[ruel]

Originally Posted by kny3twalker

http://www.sage.tv/tech.html

thanks. that page seems to be more directed to OEMs and not necessarily to end users -- just my opinion. but i can see how users can latch onto that and also start quoting all those previous message from jeff and dan in the discussion forums. it still seems to me that they changed their mind about releasing the software to mere end users at the moment. i do sympathize with those users who want studio since i would like to play with it also -- but i don't expect to get studio at least not anytime soon unless if i was an OEM negotiating a price for it.

ruel

[Jere_Jones]

Originally Posted by Radar

• How many of you want Studio released so you can start programming with it (and already know Java)?
• How many want it released so you can change the colors and layout? (I'm in this category)
• How many want it released so more programmers will have access to it and you can use their STVs when they're done (without being able to offer anything back other than feedback)?

How about all of the above!

Jere

[SHS]

Why ever one whine and cry about Studio.
I do belive one of the biggest problem with customizations is there no way add functionality with stock SageTV STV without something going heywire to the stock STV more long line of plug-in like all let I want was Weather, Comics and maybe some else as Radar said I to pretty happy with the current UI the way it is beside a few odd things and I'm sure there a lot more reason why they haven't release it.

[cassis6]

I think that the Studio announcement might be symptomatic of a change of direction for the SageTV product. I am so not much looking for the release date of Studio (even if I certainly would like to develop some modules), but for some directions where this product is going. It seems to me that Frey has/is or about to change market direction. It started as a product for HTPC enthusiasts, a rather small market segment, now there are more talks about OEMs. Such strategy is understandable, as a business Frey has to grow and the enthusiast market is nothing but an unpredictable market. On the other hand, a large OEM channel might offer great growth opportunities.

My concerns are that these 2 markets might not have the save requirements:
- The HTPC market demands a sophisticated, highly customizable product that supports all the latest technologies like HD recording support and end-user customizability (SDK, Studio).
- The OEM market might ask for a robust product with broader appeal but might be less demanding in terms of latest technologies and end-user customizability.

So where is Frey going?
Can the HTPC enthusiasts look forward to get some roadmap of where SageTV is going or are they investing in a product that might be less geared to them?

[salsbst]

Nice post, cassis6.

[flashbacck]

Originally Posted by SHS

Why ever one whine and cry about Studio.
I do belive one of the biggest problem with customizations is there no way add functionality with stock SageTV STV without something going heywire to the stock STV more long line of plug-in like all let I want was Weather, Comics and maybe some else as Radar said I to pretty happy with the current UI the way it is beside a few odd things and I'm sure there a lot more reason why they haven't release it.

Dude, periods.

[kny3twalker]

http://www.sage.tv/tech.html

while this webpage might have mentioned OEMs at the bottom
I do believe it is for anyone interested in SageTV

SageTV is an industry-leading software technology that allows users to create and operate complete media centers from an existing PC. Building on the concept of personal video recorders (PVRs) such as TiVo®, the SageTV Media Center adds complete control of home media such as TV, movies, music and photos through an easy-to-use PC interface. Users can pause live TV, record their favorite shows, access their music collection and play DVDs all from one application on their home computer. Powering the development of SageTV is Frey Technologies. By delivering such an integrated media solution, Frey Technologies is helping to define the media center market and taking the concept of personalized home media entertainment to the next level.


With the following technologies, SageTV is on the forefront of Media Center market:

SageTV Client
Multiple Tuners
Networked Video Streaming
SageTV Studio

The page is about SageTV technology not lisencing for OEMs

You said they did not mention Studio on the website
I was simply proving you wrong

thanks. that page seems to be more directed to OEMs and not necessarily to end users -- just my opinion.

Well its that just an opinion, and most that came to look at the website would probably not see it as that
I saw the page as SageTV technology and if you wanted to become an OEM after reading this, please contact them

I do not see how you saw it any differently

[hoep]

I personally think cassis6 is right. They are mainly focussing on oems in the future. Too sad, because i learned my lesson extremly well with Home Media Networks (Showshifter). When they released 3.0 it took them 1! year to bring up a 3.1 beta with support for live-tv for pvr-x50s (only fixing bugs). They are simply focussing on the oem market and neglecting regular users, who spent money on their products.

That was the reason, why i looked for alternatives, found SageTV and so far for me personally it's simply the best and reliable PVR system on the market (i also own a license of BTV - but it's behind).
For me personally i see the danger of focussing Frey too much to the OEM market (they are a small company, as i understand), simply let regular users pay the bill for that, as i mentioned before i have bad experiences.
I hope they treat users in another way then Home Media Networks does, because i personally think we would loose the best pvr-system on the market.