Official SageTV 3.0 Information

[mlbdude]

Originally Posted by Opus4

About the only update there is to give at the moment is that v3 is currently in the private beta process. Just about every release goes to the private beta group first to check for anything that has to be fixed before a wider, public, release. Once the results of the private release are satisfactory, a public beta will be released... which should be 'soon', but there is no way I'm going to promise any particular date.

I am not at liberty to discuss the exact features that will be in the initial public beta release. Those features will be listed as they become available to the user; just like the release date, I'm not going to promise specific features in case such features change for whatever reason.

In the meantime, we will continue working on improving the product.

- Andy

Maybe make this a seperate thread since people will not read it and continue to complain.

[IKK]

My personal opinion is this. Prior to purchasing Sage I did a lot of scouring the different message boards. I took in consideration the issues people had, the way the customer service reacted to issues, speed of everyone helping everyone out. I haven’t been to other boards since I got Sage, so I do not know how they are anymore. But I can say this for sure if I was looking at purchasing Sage today, I may not do to how this board has degraded over the last few months. People that have worked on STV no longer are to be found. Answers are not being dealt with as quickly as before. And from the sound of it the customer service is not there. If I were Sage I would be worried about new customer base by making sure the old customers are happy. Because new customers will not purchase Sage seeing what I see going on this board.

[Jere_Jones]

Originally Posted by src666

Right now there is absolutely nothing, zip, zilch, nada that you have to offer your customers as a reason to stick with your product.

I would have to say that (as a customer) I have a reason to stick with SageTV.

The reason is even simple.

SageTV 2.2 is a great product.

Now, I may be simple user. I don't use it as a music library. I don't use it to store thousands of pictures. I don't use it to play emulator games. I use it, simply, to watch the TV I want to watch, when I want to watch it, how I want to watch it. And for that, I really can't beat the product that already exists.

Jere

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by mlbdude

Maybe make this a seperate thread since people will not read it and continue to complain.

OK, I moved my previous post to this discussion in the beta forum: SageTV v3 Beta Progress Report. Now complaints about my vacuous information updates can continue there.

As an aside, I made a mistake when splitting off that post & left all posts in this thread marked to be split... and got a nice error message stating: "You can't split all of the posts in a thread. What would the point of that be?" Now that's an error message that I like!

- Andy

[RedR]

Hey all,

I can’t help but get the impression that you guys feel like this v3 status/release is owed to you period (those of you who are really complaining about it at least). For the life of me, I can’t find anything that in the ELUA or license agreement saying that v3 is owed to me, let alont mentioning anything about status and informational updates re: its current status.
To date, as far as I am aware all that has been publically said is "we are targeting a spring release". Thus saying to me that’s an aim, not set in stone, and has a chance of not happening. Although that does not seem to be good enough, or some folks assume that means a spring release period. I've seen this go both ways as far as companies post or not post updates. It always causes more problems than not a company does go ahead and post updates. I cannot help that the folks at SageTV have seen this as well and have chosen to go the quiet route. Please, I do mean to offend anyone with this, I just do not think it is something I can come to expect via a forums posting. Perhaps you would get more outta the folks from SageTV if you were to send and email, or another asking for any updates? Extending a bit of respect from the hand that feeds really does go a very long way in getting what you want from them. Again, I do not mean to offend anyone with this, it was more a FYI or such than anything. Come to think of it, I cannot help but consider that your current version of SageTV is lacking in some way or forum, hence the renewed and continual interest in v3?
Another aspect that is very often over looked is, silence from the company can easily mean they are in crunch mode and a release/beta is pending in the very near future. Again this is a guessing game for us either way. I personally will sign it off to a very good sign, it has always paid off with previous products and their pre-release cycles..
I have to agree that the folks at Sage are a bit silent in the PR department, but that’s their choice. Frankly I'd rather them hire a developer than a PR person. Thus I get fewer updates, if any as to how things are coming along, or even the big hoopla of a release. Frankly to me, PR post, press releases and such are nothing more than that. It’s nothing that I can install or upgrade to thus really not giving me anything I don’t already have now. It does however touch more folks who are shopping the DIY market as well the review sites. Often the reviews I see about a DIY HTPC or PVR has a tiny blurb about SageTV if at all. This tends to tick me off a bit seeing how many folks that do include SageTV in their evaluation almost always lean or choose SageTV as their solution. In the end, IMO SageTV does not get the PR or exposure to the DIY market that it deserves. That often is addressed through the homebrew sites and forums, thanks to the folks who hang out and provide help to those looking for answers. Aw well..
v3 does seem to have some really neat stuff rolled into it. But at the moment I already have the features that are being added from external resources. Thus I am in no rush or need to have the features of v3 in place on my main PVR. Nor do I feel the need for updates from the SageTV folks. I got what I paid for and it works great!! I have no doubt v3 will be along the same lines of quality we've gotten use to from previous releases.
Ok ok, I'll get off this soap box... just my 2c =)

Enjoy,
RedR

[Kanati]

hehehe... You wouldn't believe the feeling of deja-vu I'm getting here. The same arguments... The same defenses... Everything is the same as that "other product" I mentioned before. RedR, your post put me over the top with it as I would almost swear that some of it is word for word from threads on that other board.

But the thing of it isn't so much the product as the lack of communication between vendor and customer. Now, apparently, we have an answer from Sage. And that... Is all I personally wanted. Now I am happy. If we don't hear anything from them after this for another 2-3 months I'll be back on a soapbox. But for now... My mouth is shut. I have my answer and I have no further need to bother them... or you.

[Crashless]

This isn't 3.0 related, but maybe it will start some more constructive dialogue.

I've been working with KJake for about a month (and he has been working independantly for MUCH longer)on this:


We have a few more bugs to squash before we release it, so it'll probably be a couple of weeks. But I thought it was time we let a little leak. KJake's implementation is VERY cool, and I've taken over the Meekell STV. So this will be my first update to that STV with some big plans to come. Again, not 3.0 related at all - this is 2.2 you're looking at.

[JasonJoel]

Well, *I* wasn't quite saying THAT exactly... I like Opus, he has done a magnificent job around here.

I was just saying I think that most people would appreciate:
1. An expected release date (better than "Sometime in the future"
2. If they don't meet release timing for whatever reason, a subsequent update that would like an updated ETA for release.



Jason

Originally Posted by Kanati

And I'm with JasonJoel... We aren't stupid Opus. Don't get a holier-than-thou Saint Patience attitude with us when all we want is a little communication with an official Sage rep.

[JasonJoel]

How exactly did they GET BURNED? I've been using sage since well before v2.0, and I don't remember anything that dramatic happening that would cause them to clam up like this.


Yes, people were mad when 2.0 did not come out in september as indicated. But I wouldn't say they 'got burned'. Only thing that fueled that fire is they QUIT giving updates... You will always have a FEW people that are not understanding about missing release dates, but you will have a LOT of po'ed customers if you never say a darn thing.

Oh well.

Jason Bottjen

Originally Posted by gplasky

No, as you can see it is the squeaky wheel that gets nothing. I'm surprised you guys don't get it. They've been burned before. They're getting burned again. They can't win for losing so why say anything? I'm seeing this more and more from various vendors. Heaven forbid they mention a date and miss. Witness what is happening here in this thread.

Action speaks louder than words. They can tell you they're going to have this feature or that. But when it comes out it doesn't quite work like they thought. Or they had to pull it and go a different direction. Maybe they have just decided to let the product speak for itself. It will come out when it's done and it will have the features that comes with it. I don't know about you but my setup works well. It's stable. I use the features I want and use other products for the other features. (Music and DVD) The wife uses it. MVP works great. I have it running in 4 rooms and it doesn't skip a beat.

It just seems like much ado about nothing. But when it comes out, I'll be loading it up in a heartbeat. But until then I'll just wait and enjoy some TV.



Gerry

[gplasky]

Remember Studio? And you don't remember how long it took to get from 1.4 to 2.0 compared to what was announced?



Gerry

[ben_gb]

The thing is, if a company maintains a good level of regular communication with it's customers, then it can better manage their expectations. With the 'spring target' (or whatever you want to call it), it must have been pretty obvious some time ago that it wasn't going to be met, so why not say so back then, instead of leaving it people in the forums to start getting agitated. It's like getting blood out of a stone.

It really doesn't have to be like this!

Sadly, I think the lack of communication from Sage on this has had an effect, specifically in terms of losing the 'buzz' that there used to be around here about the product, and the limited amount of ongoing STV development ( I would hazard a guess that for many people, if the alternative STVs had not been available they would have moved away from Sage by now).

[KJake]

Y'all need something better to talk about. You bought a product period. Nothing more is entitled to you except support. There are lots of vendors that say, we'll release this new version in Q4 or Summer, etc. and even the big guys don't make it (including Microsoft). While yes, people do talk about it, it is sad to see pages and pages of people berating them and their business speculating about things they do not know. Show your support for the company if you really belive in them instead of talking down on them - imagine what this looks like to a potential customer or first time forum user.

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by ben_gb

...snip...and the limited amount of ongoing STV development ...snip...

Hello? Did you see my post above?

http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...724#post103724

[Kanati]

Despite my intense disagreement with what kjake said above... And the fact that he is only looking at part of the picture... I gotta admit that I like what you (crashless) and he are doing with the meekel stv (at least what I can see in that screeny). Don't know if I'll switch from maldude's stv, but maaaaybe.

[salsbst]

I'm glad that Opus put out his recent statement on the progress. I'm especially pleased that some who have been openly pining for information were at least temporarily and partially satisfied.

I'd like to point out what I like about SageTV's communication -- that they are truthful and completely devoid of an urge to censor.

They may not be sharing competitive information on the boards like they used to, but SageTV shoots from the hip. There have been schedule slips to be sure, none more storied that the Studio feature, but SageTV has always tried to provide us with information when they can competitively afford to do so.

More importantly, SageTV uses a feather touch in censoring these boards. It doesn't take a genious to realize that they'd love this thread to go away. I know of multiple competitors who have repeatedly crossed the line on censorship (IMHO) on their boards -- sometimes to the point where I question the moderator's sanity. That is something that I take seriously.

Censorship has caused me in one case to develop software to help me migrate away from an app, and in the other to cross the app off of my list of options forever.

I hope everyone enjoys the privileges they have to badmouth SageTV and to point out its weaknesses in the same breath as trumpeting the strengths of its competitors. I intend that without sarcasm. It is a privilege and not a right. Sometimes the exercise of privileges, absent of grace, is misguided.

There are many feature requests, some that are new and innovative and some that are repeats, intermingled in the rants of this thread. I would propose that those with ideas take some time to consider how those ideas can be expanded and start a thread about them.

• If you want HDTV, then contribute to and test the HD Network encoder;
• if you want built-in commercial skipping, contribute to the material discussions on the subject;
• if you want a bug fixed, help to test the darn thing;
• if you hate your job, then send your resume around;
• if you think XYZ feature will make SageTV better, start a thread about how you would like to see the feature implemented, or chime in to a thread that already spells it all out.

Sheesh, time can be better spent.

Entitlements (perceived or real) are dangerous.

P.S. Anybody read the recently published biography of Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow?

[KJake]

I'm sorry, but I come from the Sage 1.3 days and everything I recieve beyond 1.3 is a plus to me. The product has grown leaps and bounds beyond my initial download. Originally, there wasn't even a media player, or playlist manager, it was strictly TV. I could have only dreamed of getting the ability to have an API to Sage in the form of Studio (albeit not public, but it is still there). The current version competes very well with other solutions and even gives MediaCenter XP a run for its money. What more can you ask for? I know they're communication is sparse, but consider what would happen if Dan and Jeff spent all of their time on the forums. We'd have no hope of recieving any major features becuase they'd be too busy listening to comments, gripes, and ideas that they now pay other people to do. Perhaps they're also afaid of competition, releasing feature set ideas, planned release dates gives competitors a heads up, keeping them in the dark is good for Sage. At this point I sound like I'm making a bunch of excuses on behalf of Sage, but I'm really just trying to play the other side of this one sided discussion.

In short, Jeff is working his a$$ off, you just can't see it yet. If 3.0 is anything like the CES displays and product sheets, then I'll be happy. Also consider, what have they been doing since CES, perhaps working more features into the product...or maybe taking a vacation. No one will know until 3.0 is released. So, be paitent, it'll be here when it is here.

About the project Crashless has been working on with me:
Crashless is much better than I with Studio and he was taking over the Meekell theme. So, to get his feet wet, we started there. My hope is to be able to make this into an import and to be portable among all themes. This will take time as neither of us has done that before. (here's hoping neilm can help ... )

[x[corwyn]]

There are a lot of comments on here already but hers my 2 or 3 or 4 cents worth as may be.

1.) When I bought in I paid full price for Sage, and a client with the knowledge that I would be getting updates. A lot of things I was looking for were in "Updates" and also Studio (Where IS that BTW?) Now some of my issues and things I wanted were actually done by people on here which were not employees and put their time and effort into this product and shared with each other which brings me to #2

2.) Someone mentioned that "we" being the users on the board are noth their core users they are attracting. Well now using this product for about a year now I have seen something that a lot of companies really don't get for free. Tech support and Quality Assurance. So being that the people here have put up with slipped dates, slipped products and have put time and effort into a product they paid for that they believe in, says something for the product given that their are other ones out there. However this leads me to #3

3.) RESPECT.


That is something that I feel really is lost by a lot of people here. I see the same thing that I think echoed...The product is great, the customer support is not so great. I'll put it a step forward. I have worked for a number of software companies, and whenever I see this type of slip dates and slipped products it screams to me and anyone else that looks into it "GOING DOWN THE DRAIN". Its not professional. Thats the bottom line. If this was some freeware or GPL software that a person puts his spare time into he really doesn't need to communicate about what hes doing. However in my experience those guys are usually better about communicating whats going on. Look at GBPVR. Sub is on the forums talking away taking care of business, putting out a damned good product which right now is free to download and still is right there. I have used it myself. I find some things better in Sage but his product is definitely far better than some "polished" products I have used.

4.) My advice? Just like any project manager has to do and part of my duties is to manage projects. Plan accordingly. Add extra time for problems and QA. COMMUNICATE early with issues. If you think you have a whining base of users, maybe the core reason is because the expectations are that what you say will be done, will be (I know this is a surprise) done when you said. Cutting off communication rather than doing a better job of project management has just made most people here see you as arrogant, unreliable, and not able to deliver on anything these days.

Again as I have watched a number of software companies do similar things it really makes me wonder if the company is being bought out or if it is going to fold.

[flavius]

Originally Posted by x[corwyn]

..worked for a number of software companies, and whenever I see this type of slip dates and slipped products it screams to me and anyone else that looks into it "GOING DOWN THE DRAIN". Its not professional. Thats the bottom line...

Lol. That happens all the time, especially in the software industry.

[JasonJoel]

Slipped release dates do happen all the time. But his point is still valid.

A lot of times a stoppage/change in communication is an indication of the company doing poorly (getting ready to go bust), getting sold and the buying company puts gag on developers (been there, done that), or a big disconnect with power users and thgose that can help them move forward in the digital landscape.

Not saying any of those are necessarily what is going on with Frey (although I think the last is true, personally). They are probably just ditching their end customer and focusing solely on OEM...

In any case, if all that is in 3.0 is what they advertised at CES then this product will be eclipsed by others within a year anyway. Because what they advertised at CES was next to NOTHING. So I want to believe there is more in store than what was advertised close to 6 months ago. Wish they would just fess up and spill the beans.

Jason Bottjen

Originally Posted by flavius

Lol. That happens all the time, especially in the software industry.

[Opus4]

Here's a reminder: This forum is considered to be a user to user forum, not an official form of technical support or customer service for SageTV. For technical support or customer service, contact SageTV directly. From time to time, the forum may also be used for product or company announcements, though there is no guarantee that you will hear it here first.

There seems to be a vast misunderstanding that SageTV consists of Jeff & Dan working by themselves on this software & that they should be on the forum regularly to let everyone know what is happening. I've said this before: While the comapny may have started out that way, it is not the case now and has not been the case for quite some time. There are other people in the company who have been delegated certain tasks. Administering the forum is one of my duties; I help people when I can, but I also do such things as make sure the forum is run fairly smoothly so that users can talk to other users w/o getting blasted by others, for example. Assistance with SageTV on this forum comes mainly from other users volunteering their time to help each other due to their interest in the product (& that participation is greatly appreciated). As I said above: the forum is not a direct line to SageTV's tech support dept. I try to get details of the program to help in certain circumstances, but I am not about to divulge confidential information.

For anyone wondering about a lack of direct & continuous comments about what has been added to SageTV's core code every so often, I would suggest that you take that to indicate a decision by SageTV not to let the world know exactly what they are up to until such features are released. There is no "need to know" on those items, since no one can use them until it is publicly released anyway. What company in their right mind tells the world all their plans? There is such a thing as proprietary company information that is kept confidential. Just because _you_ don't see what SageTV is working on, doesn't mean they have a lack of business. There is more to SageTV than what you see, so just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

- Andy