What's so bad about SageTV's UI?

[jbarr]

I've seen several threads discussing SageTV's UI, and though this may have been hashed and rehashed, one thing that I don't see too often is just what should be changed? I read lots of complaints that the UI "isn't up-to-date", is "boring", or doesn't have enough "eye candy", but there is very little about just what needs to be changed, added, or improved, to make it more competitive with other solutions.

And just so we're on the same page, I'm not talking about adding more functions as such (like rolling DVD burning or commercial skip into the core.) I'm referring to specific UI elements that either need to be improved or changed.

I looked at the BeyondTV screen shots on Snapstream's site, similar shots on the MythTV site, and screen shots over at ReplayTV's PC edition site, and I really have to wonder, "What's so bad about SageTV's UI?" (Or is this whole debate all about comparisons with XP/Vista Media Center?) And yes, I have looked at SageMC, and though I do like what I see, I'm specifically referring to SageTV's default STV.

So what's the big deal?

SageTV's EPG is laid out and organized very similarly to the competition...
SageTV's OSD looks just as clean and informative...
SageTV's Weather screens just as comprehensive...
SageTV's scheduling and search screens seem to be quite similar...
...and the list goes on....

I'm certainly not saying that things can't be "spruced up" a bit, but overall, I fail to see a huge dissimilarity that would cause one to view SageTV as a "dated" product.

What am I missing?

[sainswor99]

I have a whole list of improvements in my mind that I've yet to type out in a comprehensive list, but most of those stem from a usability perspective rather than an issue with a "dated" interface or lack of "eye candy". I'm not sure you want to include those in this discussion, so I'll hold off on them for now.

Can of worms

Stu

[jquinlan]

Originally Posted by jbarr

So what's the big deal?

SageTV's EPG is laid out and organized very similarly to the competition...
SageTV's OSD looks just as clean and informative...
SageTV's Weather screens just as comprehensive...
SageTV's scheduling and search screens seem to be quite similar...
...and the list goes on....

I'm certainly not saying that things can't be "spruced up" a bit, but overall, I fail to see a huge dissimilarity that would cause one to view SageTV as a "dated" product.

What am I missing?

It is the menu structure to get you to these most of these screens you mention. Look at the alternatives people are using, each one uses an easy to follow menu system, not the default SAGE UI.

[jbarr]

Originally Posted by jquinlan

It is the menu structure to get you to these most of these screens you mention. Look at the alternatives people are using, each one uses an easy to follow menu system, not the default SAGE UI.

Again, I'm not sure where the problem lies....

SageTV's EPG...

one button press on the remote: Guide - seems simple.

SageTV's OSD

one button press on the remote: Info - seems simple.

SageTV's Weather screens

Press Home, scroll to Online Services, select, scroll to Weather, select - A few button presses, but overall, it seems intuitive.

SageTV's scheduling and search screens

Press Home, scroll to Schedule Recordings, select, Select Search or appropriate screen - Again, a few button presses, but overall, it seems intuitive.


I guess I'll have to check out the competition further to see what you mean....

[sainswor99]

Ahh, but now you're throwing in an element that you didn't mention before: the remote. I (and probably many others) don't use a remote. I guess it depends on the use case that you use Sage from:

1. I watch TV on my computer; Sage (or SageClient or Placeshifter) is an application on my computer, and I treat it as such.

OR

2. My computer is part of my home theater. I treat SageTV like a media device, and don't really use the computer for anything else.

It is possible to use Sage for both, or have some elements of both, but in my mind those are the core differences that make the menu system appear awkward for some, and perhaps not so much for others.

If you don't use a remote, the menu system is a bit bewildering to find things. and requires several clicks to get to features of interest. I've made the point in previous posts that one reason that the competitors menu structure seems less cluttered is that they have fewer features.

Stu

[deria]

I think that each person will answer this question differently.

I think the biggest problem (for me) is that the UI is not intuitive. I don't like icons or toolbars. I'm just not a visual person that can easily use pictographs.

I think the other problem is that the interface is overwhelming for many users.

Specifically, though, consider these examples:

The SageTV Recordings Screen

1. Color coding. I don't like it. I can tell what a show is simply by looking at the title. I really don't need to have movies highlighted in purple.

2. Circular Lists. If you're on item #1 and you press the up button, I don't really like that it goes to item #21. I'd rather it just beep or something. Also, the fact that the bar in the scroll window splits into a piece at the top and a piece at the bottom when you traverse the edges of the recording list is confuisng.

3. Sort order. Why is item #1 a movie? It wasn't the most recent thing I recorded. It wasn't the least recent thing I recorded.

4. Folders. I'd like my media to be in a simple list. I don't like the concept of automatically grouping stuff by folders (at all).

5. Confusing pictographs. Whats the difference between a green number 1 and a red number 1?

6. 200 options. Click a recording. You're presented with a screen that has 15 buttons on it. Some of those buttons have icons, and some don't.

So, what is to be done about it? Nothing much, really. Its all personal preference. Someone ten minutes from now will post how much they love circular lists, and how all those options are necessary. Someone else will post that I can remove the options I don't like to simplify things. Someone else will post that there are configuration properties I can set to change some or all of these behaviours. Someone will tell me to RTFM.

The question you asked was "what makes it not desirable", though, and the items I've highlighed lead me to this asnwer: "its not easy enough to just pick up and use as a newbie".

You also asked why people thought the UI was stale. I think that it might be the fact that its more or less a monochromatic interface. It has little use of transparency, no stylish border effects around the preview window or the little screenshot winodw, no use of animation (screens sliding in and out), and not much in the way of transition effects (ie: when you call up that screen with 200 options, it just appears -- it doesn't fade in, grow in, slide in, or do anything except suddenly be there). Again, though, these are personal preferences. Some people like the lack of fancy effects. Also, those who like them can use SageMC or write their own effects.

[Halstead]

Yes, it's deeply unintuitive and lacks consistency. Just try sitting folks down in fromt of SageTV, Media Center, Beyond TV, and TiVo (I actually did this about 10 months back fro a client). Folks can pick up TiVo and Media Center almost instantly, and adjust to BeyondTV fairly quickly. Not so much with Sage- I had one person(we surveyed 10) actually throw the remote after 5 minutes.

I love SageTV, and it's my media center/PVR app of choice. However, I had to spend a *lot* of time tweaking it to get a reasonable WAF. The great thing about SageTV is that it can do almost anything you want of it. The bad thing is that out of the box it's a bit of a usability train wreck, with or without a remote.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by jbarr

I've seen several threads discussing SageTV's UI, and though this may have been hashed and rehashed, one thing that I don't see too often is just what should be changed? I read lots of complaints that the UI "isn't up-to-date", is "boring", or doesn't have enough "eye candy", but there is very little about just what needs to be changed, added, or improved, to make it more competitive with other solutions.

And just so we're on the same page, I'm not talking about adding more functions as such (like rolling DVD burning or commercial skip into the core.) I'm referring to specific UI elements that either need to be improved or changed.

I looked at the BeyondTV screen shots on Snapstream's site, similar shots on the MythTV site, and screen shots over at ReplayTV's PC edition site, and I really have to wonder, "What's so bad about SageTV's UI?" (Or is this whole debate all about comparisons with XP/Vista Media Center?) And yes, I have looked at SageMC, and though I do like what I see, I'm specifically referring to SageTV's default STV.

So what's the big deal?

SageTV's EPG is laid out and organized very similarly to the competition...
SageTV's OSD looks just as clean and informative...
SageTV's Weather screens just as comprehensive...
SageTV's scheduling and search screens seem to be quite similar...
...and the list goes on....

I'm certainly not saying that things can't be "spruced up" a bit, but overall, I fail to see a huge dissimilarity that would cause one to view SageTV as a "dated" product.

What am I missing?

Bravo!!! I've asked the same question a couple times, most recently in one of the Sage UI sucks threads. Over and over again I see comments that the Sage UI sucks, yet I rarely see any comments about what's actually wrong. And just for some nostalgia, look at where we came from:
SageTV 1.4

http://ruel.net/pc/tv.tuner.videoblaster.sagetv.htm

Originally Posted by sainswor99

I have a whole list of improvements in my mind that I've yet to type out in a comprehensive list, but most of those stem from a usability perspective rather than an issue with a "dated" interface or lack of "eye candy". I'm not sure you want to include those in this discussion, so I'll hold off on them for now.

Can of worms

Then please, start a new thread (this one will probably become lost soon) to discuss your ideas. I've said it in the other threads, that many of the
"veteran" users, and probably especially the SageTV devs find the current UI completely intuitive, it often takes an "outsider" or "newbie" to see things that aren't done well because after you get to know a product you often unconsciously ignore or work around issues. I see this every day at work, where you take a procedure I can do in my sleep, give it to somebody unfamiliar with it, and they're stuck from the beginning.

If you don't use a remote, the menu system is a bit bewildering to find things. and requires several clicks to get to features of interest. I've made the point in previous posts that one reason that the competitors menu structure seems less cluttered is that they have fewer features.

The same could be said for all "10-foot" UIs. I know Vista MC, which is very pretty is absolutely horrid to navigate with a mouse.

Originally Posted by deria

So, what is to be done about it? Nothing much, really. Its all personal preference. Someone ten minutes from now will post how much they love circular lists, and how all those options are necessary. Someone else will post that I can remove the options I don't like to simplify things. Someone else will post that there are configuration properties I can set to change some or all of these behaviours. Someone will tell me to RTFM.

You're absolutely right for the most part, most of what you described is exactly that, preferences. And I think that is something different than what is being described here. Many have complaints about the UI, that seem to go beyond simple differences in taste, but nobody ever explains what they mean.

And now I'll fullfill your prediction

1. Color coding. I don't like it. I can tell what a show is simply by looking at the title. I really don't need to have movies highlighted in purple.

Aesthetically I can understand the difference, but I don't see how this could impede anybody from a usability standpoint.

2. Circular Lists. If you're on item #1 and you press the up button, I don't really like that it goes to item #21. I'd rather it just beep or something. Also, the fact that the bar in the scroll window splits into a piece at the top and a piece at the bottom when you traverse the edges of the recording list is confuisng.

I like them, but the split bar is weird.

3. Sort order. Why is item #1 a movie? It wasn't the most recent thing I recorded. It wasn't the least recent thing I recorded.

Isn't sort order an option?

4. Folders. I'd like my media to be in a simple list. I don't like the concept of automatically grouping stuff by folders (at all).

Isn't grouping an option?

5. Confusing pictographs. Whats the difference between a green number 1 and a red number 1?

Yeah, I agree.

6. 200 options. Click a recording. You're presented with a screen that has 15 buttons on it. Some of those buttons have icons, and some don't.

I can see that.

Originally Posted by Halstead

Yes, it's deeply unintuitive and lacks consistency. Just try sitting folks down in fromt of SageTV, Media Center, Beyond TV, and TiVo (I actually did this about 10 months back fro a client). Folks can pick up TiVo and Media Center almost instantly, and adjust to BeyondTV fairly quickly. Not so much with Sage- I had one person(we surveyed 10) actually throw the remote after 5 minutes.

Please, explain how sage is "deeply unintuitive". I'm sincerely asking, not trying to be combative. We hear this a lot on these forums and others, and many of the Sage "veterans", at least myself, can't understand it at all. At the same time, I understand that the more you use a product, the harder it is to see those things that make it difficult for new users.

What are the things people have trouble with? Where are they thrown off? Where should things be?

I've used BeyondTV, Vista MC, and even a Tivo, although all were briefly. I don't recall thinking any of them were more intuitive than Sage. In fact IIRC, I remember finding many of them (BeyondTV and Vista MC) somewhat frustrating since I was searching for things I knew how to find in Sage (Tivo was before Sage so I can't say the same about it).

I love SageTV, and it's my media center/PVR app of choice.

I do to, which is why I'm returning the question to those who claim Sage is "unintuitive". If you truely believe Sage is unintuitive, you must know what things are causing you (or others) trouble. Please, please list them. As with all Sage fans, I want nothing but to see Sage improve and prosper, but without knowing how to fix issues, it's hard to do anything.

However, I had to spend a *lot* of time tweaking it to get a reasonable WAF.

What did you "have" to change?

The great thing about SageTV is that it can do almost anything you want of it. The bad thing is that out of the box it's a bit of a usability train wreck, with or without a remote.

Please, explain. We've been reading these comments since the beginning, yet nobody ever takes the time to explain how, and if I as a user can't figure it out, I can only imagine how hard it must be for the SageTV devs to see how it's wrong.

Again, not trying to be combative at all, just trying to direct the energy such that we can make useful suggestions for improvements instead of another thread simply lamenting the "poor" Sage UI, and arguing about the differences.

[stanger89]

Just a little exercise to illustrate my point about "We don't understand what you mean about unintuitive", a quick comparison of SageTV and BeyondTV:

Main Menu
SageTV:

BeyondTV:


Looking at the two, I see essentially the same thing, Recorindgs, LiveTV, EPG, Settings, Schedule Recorings, exit...

The only "big" difference, is that BTV has the little "info" pane that says what the options are. Would that be a big help? It's not hard to do, if it would help, maybe Sage can do something similar.

Schedule Recordings:
SageTV:

BeyondTV:


Again, very similar.

Recording Options:
SageTV:

BeyondTV:


Similar again.

Selecting from the Guide:
SageTV:

BeyondTV:


These are probably the most commonly used functions, and based on many of the comments, one would think there is something fundamentally wrong with Sage's organization.

However to me, it seems Sage is organized very much like what it's most often compared to, BeyondTV, so you see why I ask for specifics about what's wrong with Sage...

[sakker]

This is coming from a newbie.

Right now i'm using it from my computer, the media extender will be here tomorrow so hopefully using a remote will be easier.

I can tell you this, the UI sucks, horribly for me right now trying to figure it out.

Sometimes you can right click and get the option you want on certain menus, but on other menus it just gives you some crazy option that has nothing to do with what you right clicked on.

The screenshots above would be great if on a right click you had an option that you could then edit what is on that particular menu. Like get rid of the things you don't use 90% of the time, or put them into a sub folder off that menu easily so that they are still there but not cluttering up your view, or other less technical peoples view when trying to just watch tv. Either that or a hierarchial type menu that gets more complex depending on your options the deeper you go.

I am ok with it, but once I unleash it and get the WAF involved, I am going to be hearing a lot of crap.

Seriously, when 95% of our viewing goes on, we do not need to view upcoming airings, record in 30 days, view historical airings, set watched, etc etc etc.

If you select a movie, show, whatever, you want to watch that movie, show or whatever. If I want something else, then I want to delve further into the options to record or whatever I want. More complex/details/options the further in you go, not all at the front end.

It is hard to explain things sometimes, without coming across too much in the way you are trying not to. I think Sage is a great product that will get better with time, but I believe it has a ways to go.

Once I get into it more and get a better feel for things I am going to start working on tweaks myself, which will ease my mind, but I know in a couple of days I'll be hearing an earful.

[AngelofDeth]

I actually like the default UI quite a bit, just not as much as SageMC. The only thing that really annoyed me about the default UI is the circular lists, especially on the recorded show list. When your scrolling through a list, and get to the end, I expect it to stop rather than wrap around...

[Jesse]

Hold on now. Before anybody goes changing anything I want to say that I like the circular browser.....

Jesse

[sainswor99]

You're right, I do need to draw up my list. I've been meaning to for some time, but I want to make sure it's complete before I post it, which means I haven't even started it I'll try to get to it this week, but no guarantees.

[pawn]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Hold on now. Before anybody goes changing anything I want to say that I like the circular browser.....

Jesse

Amen. For those of us with minimum 100 items in the recordings list, losing the circlular feature would be a nightmare.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

If you don't use a remote, the menu system is a bit bewildering to find things. and requires several clicks to get to features of interest. I've made the point in previous posts that one reason that the competitors menu structure seems less cluttered is that they have fewer features.

Stu

There's a thread on this topic in one of the other forums, and my argument was that what's nice about the Sage interface is that it is very mouse friendly. I don't use a mouse either.

Edit: Prior thread if you want to read 176 posts on the topic of the UI:

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...ighlight=mouse

Apparently if you use Sage MC, you have to use a remote, because it doesn't have the mouse support for simple things like FF/REW.

I too like the Sage UI. People want to change it just to update it--I don't like that idea at all. I've seen far too many UI's that are not improvements.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by Halstead

Yes, it's deeply unintuitive and lacks consistency. Just try sitting folks down in fromt of SageTV, Media Center, Beyond TV, and TiVo (I actually did this about 10 months back fro a client). Folks can pick up TiVo and Media Center almost instantly, and adjust to BeyondTV fairly quickly. Not so much with Sage- I had one person(we surveyed 10) actually throw the remote after 5 minutes..

I'm not sure which Tivo you were using, but I find the Sage UI to be practically identical to the Tivo UI.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Looking at the two, I see essentially the same thing, Recorindgs, LiveTV, EPG, Settings, Schedule Recorings, exit...

The only "big" difference, is that BTV has the little "info" pane that says what the options are. Would that be a big help? It's not hard to do, if it would help, maybe Sage can do something similar.

First--great post!

Second, if you need the little information piece at the bottom, your problem isn't that the program isn't intuative. Your problem is that you didn't complete the sixth grade!

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by stanger89

SageTV 1.4
.

Now I know why in full screen there's a sleep button, but no exit button! It goes all the way back to 1.4!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

First--great post!

Second, if you need the little information piece at the bottom, your problem isn't that the program isn't intuative. Your problem is that you didn't complete the sixth grade!

And I'm not trying to suggest that anyone who thinks the Sage UI is unintuitive is wrong, quite the contrary, I suspect they're probably thinking the opposite of me, "How can these guys think the UI is good?". I pick on BeyondTV because it's often used as an example of something that's significantly better than Sage, yet when I look at it, I see them being very similar.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by sakker

If you select a movie, show, whatever, you want to watch that movie, show or whatever. If I want something else, then I want to delve further into the options to record or whatever I want. More complex/details/options the further in you go, not all at the front end.

There were a few of us who groaned when they added the "selected" menues.

But on the disagreement side, one of the things I've always (or used to, don't know if it's changed) about BeyondTV was that there was a lot of stuff you simply couldn't do from the 10-foot UI. There was a lot of stuff you had to use the web interface for.

Now the web interface is great, and I use Nielm's webserver with Sage, but I also think it's important to have as much as possible available in the UI. That's one of the things I liked from the start.

Of course that's not to say they need to be prominent in the 10-foot UI, just that they should be there.