What's so bad about SageTV's UI?

[AngelofDeth]

Originally Posted by pawn

Amen. For those of us with minimum 100 items in the recordings list, losing the circlular feature would be a nightmare.

I have over 300 recordings, about 80 when grouped. It takes about 8 seconds to scroll through it, hardly what i'd call a nightmare.

[sakker]

Originally Posted by stanger89

There were a few of us who groaned when they added the "selected" menues.

But on the disagreement side, one of the things I've always (or used to, don't know if it's changed) about BeyondTV was that there was a lot of stuff you simply couldn't do from the 10-foot UI. There was a lot of stuff you had to use the web interface for.

Now the web interface is great, and I use Nielm's webserver with Sage, but I also think it's important to have as much as possible available in the UI. That's one of the things I liked from the start.

Of course that's not to say they need to be prominent in the 10-foot UI, just that they should be there.

No doubt, no argument. I WANT all of the options/configurations/etc, but I don't want it right there so when you first look at it, or your wife, friends, family looks at it, they can figure out hwo to change the channel, record a show, play a dvd without having to call you on the phone and you have to walk them through it.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by sakker

I don't want it right there so when you first look at it, or your wife, friends, family looks at it, they can figure out hwo to change the channel, record a show, play a dvd without having to call you on the phone and you have to walk them through it.

My 8-year-old and 10-year-old had it all figured out, watching and setting favourites, recording etc. within a few days after a 5-minute training session with me...and I'm no trainer! Never had a call from them for support since. The only problem is convincing them that they don't need a constant supply of 15 unwatched Zoey-101s, Sleepover Clubs, Loonatics, Drake & Joshs etc. etc.

[jquinlan]

Just a little exercise to illustrate my point about "We don't understand what you mean about unintuitive", a quick comparison of SageTV and BeyondTV:

The one thing that is missing form the SAGE TV to Beyond TV comparison is the Media Center functions. Beyond TV does not include Media Center features out of the box, you have to buy it separately. Sage TV includes it so why make it another menu level down for functions you hype about why you are better and more inclusive.
SageMC gives me this; Pictures, Videos, TV, Weather and others right from the first level menu, its not an after though or another step. We use TV everyday, we use Video everyday with kids; it is almost spring on the east cost so we use the weather almost everyday because it can change that often. SageMC puts it all right there. It is just less cluttered for the WAF and the kids. The neighbors can stop buy and navigate easily. None of them would have picked it up as easily if the Sage UI was selected.

This is why I don’t think the Sage UI is the professional, consumer friendly interface that should be the default. It could be the hackers or tweekers interface.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by sakker

Sometimes you can right click and get the option you want on certain menus, but on other menus it just gives you some crazy option that has nothing to do with what you right clicked on.

Tip: don't use right click, always use left click
Sage's interface is designed to be used with a remote which only has arrow keys and Enter.
Right-click / Options is used for bringing up options the screen... very very rarely does is have any relation to what you clicked on...

This of course is counter-intuitive to every other WIMP app where right-click is used all the time, but in this respect, Sage is not a WIMP application. (the M(enus) are the main interace, I(cons) are used only to show remote-shortcuts and P(ointers)/Mice are not meant to be the primary input device).

[nielm]

Sage's menu layout by default is a little odd, but that is why I made my customisable menu plugin, so I can have the menus how I want them without changing the rest of the STV functionality...

Different people have different ideas about what is important on a menu

In my house, LiveTV is *never* used, so Watch TV is off the main menu. Program guide is *never* selected from the main menu (remote shortcut, never watch liveTV, and most of what we record are faves), so thats off into a submenu.
Sleep is never used, so that's off too...
Then I have several of my plugins and shortcuts to windows apps in a pair of custom subemenus, which leaves me with:

• Recordings
• TV Schedule menu (same as Schedule menu with Program Guide)
• Media Library menu
• Information (same as online services, but with IMDB, RSSnews, and a couple of WebText pages)
• Utilities (a few external apps, Setup menus, Video Edit, DVD burn plugins)

and thats enough for the main menu, otherwise it gets much too cluttered on a 10ft UI.

Others will disagree with me (and already have upthread). but thats what a customisable menu is for...

Some would say that sage needs to have customisable menus built in, but that leads to a support nightmare at every upgrade (where do you insert new menu items into other peoples existing customised menus!)

One thing that does need a lot of improvement is the whole configuration/setup/detailed setup collection of menus... I can never remember where to find anything However one thing that is wonderful about sage is that there *are* these options... Hardly anything is hard-coded...

[jbarr]

Thanks for all the great responses! My intention of this thread was to try to get past the simple "SageTV's UI is bad" sentiment, and to really delve into WHY it is considered bad. And I've seen some excellent responses here.

1. SageTV's design and the mouse
First off, it is my opinion that SageTV and many other PVR solutions are designed and marketed primarily as a "10-foot UI" solution to be used with a remote. Yes, they can ALL be controlled with a mouse as well, but I really feel that the intended audience is the 10-foot UI audience. Having said that, I agree that mouse navigation in SageTV is not really optimal or always intuitive. Yes, you can certainly use a mouse, but I personally find that using a standard keyboard (the arrow keys, primarily) or a remote is much more intuitive. Obviously, YMMV.

Quick tip: Go into Setup > Detailed Setup > Customize > Focus follows mouse movement and toggle this setting off. This will at least make mousing around a bit more sane.

2. A quote from sakker
sakker wrote,

Seriously, when 95% of our viewing goes on, we do not need to view upcoming airings, record in 30 days, view historical airings, set watched, etc etc etc.

If you select a movie, show, whatever, you want to watch that movie, show or whatever. If I want something else, then I want to delve further into the options to record or whatever I want. More complex/details/options the further in you go, not all at the front end.

Sakker, you stated that you are a newbie, so welcome to the SageTV world! Are you making the above statements from experience, or are you speculating how your experience will be? I ask, because my wife and I find such features as "view upcoming airings" and "set watched" invaluable and essential features that. To us, these must be quickly accessible. These two features alone let the viewer very simply and completely control what will be recorded in the future, particularly when dealing with series and recurring shows. OK, I admit that I'm a DVR/PVR veteran having used ReplayTV and other DVR's since as far back as 1999, so "advanced" functionality like this comes second nature, and I consider them to be absolutely "required". But I honestly believe that once SageTV becomes your primary solution for watching TV content, you'll understand what I mean.

3. The real benefits
Finally, I think that for those users who adopt SageTV as a primary media solution, over time, most negative perceptions about the UI really become minor. Once you throw in a few plugins (like customizable menus, Web interface, commercial skip, and video editing) and customize the menus to your liking, I firmly believe that you'll find that the overall set of capabilities really overshadows most perceived UI shortcomings. I of course will concede that good improvements are always welcome--just not for the mere sake of change.

Oh, and I had to laugh at my wife's response when I told her that I started this thread. Her first words were, "What's wrong with it? It's fine for me." Always nice when the WAF goes up a bit!

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by nielm

Tip: don't use right click, always use left click
Sage's interface is designed to be used with a remote which only has arrow keys and Enter.
Right-click / Options is used for bringing up options the screen... very very rarely does is have any relation to what you clicked on... .

Last night after seeing the post you were responding to, I was wondering what you right click for (that's useful). I think there might be one thing, but I can't remember what it is.

But I have to disagree with you on the "designed to be used with a remote" claim--if that's what you intended in the design, you did a hell of a good unintended job of creating a UI that works with a mouse!

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

My 8-year-old and 10-year-old had it all figured out, watching and setting favourites, recording etc. within a few days after a 5-minute training session with me...and I'm no trainer! Never had a call from them for support since. The only problem is convincing them that they don't need a constant supply of 15 unwatched Zoey-101s, Sleepover Clubs, Loonatics, Drake & Joshs etc. etc.

My wife isn't that great at figuring out computer programs, but I don't recall her having any issues when we started Sage, or at any upgrade.

[SHS]

PVR User Interface should be fluid balance, color balance scheme as in positive and negative color for Example Dark (Black or Deep Color) Background can make other colors appear brighter being a PVR apps need big fonts setup in order to look rigth on PC and TV monitor and well design visual elements like icon, etc and well layout arrangement.
1: iSage UI nice, still need work can't wait to see how this GUI turn out when it finsh.
2: Meekell UI nice, but color balance is off.
3: Sage UI it ok, but silver brush bar and blue don't go will together a better Example is Black base, Silver or Pearl do.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

Last night after seeing the post you were responding to, I was wondering what you right click for (that's useful). I think there might be one thing, but I can't remember what it is.

Dynamic menus, editing a menu item requires the item to be selected and the Options command to be sent == right clicking

I think possibly in malore sage recordings, right-clicking a recording or group pops up a special menu for actions on that recording/group...

[jominor]

Originally Posted by jquinlan

It is the menu structure to get you to these most of these screens you mention. Look at the alternatives people are using, each one uses an easy to follow menu system, not the default SAGE UI.

I respectfully disagree. I had no problem with the default menu structure. Nor did my wife. In fact, I only recently used a plugin to change it and that is to fit our usage. For example, I removed LiveTV from the main list because I rarely use it. And I moved Archived to the primary menu and renamed it "TV Library", which was the Sage 1.4 name back in the day.

[jominor]

2. Circular Lists. If you're on item #1 and you press the up button, I don't really like that it goes to item #21. I'd rather it just beep or something. .

I absolutely disagree with this. In fact, a few of us lobbied to have this put back in when it was removed.

First, practically every application I've ever used rolls you back to the top with a list. Second, nothing, NOTHING is more annoying than to get to the bottom of a long list, decide you want to item at the top and have to all all the way back up when you are closer if it just rolls.

See, the issue is not one of intuitiveness, but of taste and that is very subjective. I write user applications for a living and one person's gripe is another person's attractive feature.

[mlbdude]

Everyone knows that SageTV has the best technology out there for PVR. However, MCE has more users and is growing much faster than SageTV. MCE users use MCE since it is powerful enough, looks good, and is easy to setup and use. I don't think you ever hear them claim they use it since it is more powerful than the alternatives.

If SageTV goes out of business because they did not put in the time to their UI and user experience that is simply LAME. I don't think personal opinion on UI's matter too much. We should be much more interested in seeing SageTV survive and flourish.

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by SHS

PVR User Interface should be fluid balance, color balance scheme as in positive and negative color for Example Dark (Black or Deep Color) Background can make other colors appear brighter being a PVR apps need big fonts setup in order to look rigth on PC and TV monitor and well design visual elements like icon, etc and well layout arrangement.
1: iSage UI nice, still need work can't wait to see how this GUI turn out when it finsh.
2: Meekell UI nice, but color balance is off.
3: Sage UI it ok, but silver brush bar and blue don't go will together a better Example is Black base, Silver or Pearl do.

This is what I would like to see improvement on as well. I would love to see a completely redesigned, graphically speaking, ui which when used with existing plugins is able to maintain consistency throughout the interface.

I too like the iSage look, not because of the Apple icons though. It is about the polished look of the buttons, etc.

Everything else I can handle with the use of third party plugins..

my 2

b

[ben_95sl1]

I'll just chime in and say I have no big issues with the menu layout, but it would be nice if there were pretty icons next to the words so I don't have to read. I have been trying out sagemc, and I still don't like it. I really hate the way the recordings are laid out; I keep going back to default stv. The revolving recordings is an absolute necessity for me, and if I could pick between having it or not in any menu: then please include it.

Ben

[jbarr]

Originally Posted by jominor

...For example, I removed LiveTV from the main list because I rarely use it.

Hmmm...what an amazingly excellent yet obvious tip! It seems my wife and I either use the Program guide to select live TV content, or we go to SageTV Recordings to watch a recorded show. I don't think we ever use the Live TV menu option, so I can remove it freeing up a very valuable Home Menu entry! Excellent!

[jominor]

Originally Posted by stanger89

There were a few of us who groaned when they added the "selected" menues.

But on the disagreement side, one of the things I've always (or used to, don't know if it's changed) about BeyondTV was that there was a lot of stuff you simply couldn't do from the 10-foot UI. There was a lot of stuff you had to use the web interface for.

Now the web interface is great, and I use Nielm's webserver with Sage, but I also think it's important to have as much as possible available in the UI. That's one of the things I liked from the start.

Of course that's not to say they need to be prominent in the 10-foot UI, just that they should be there.

I was one of them. Originally, you selected a showand press the remote button, you watched the show. Now, you get a menu with more options. I hated this in BeyondTV and initially when it was changed in Sage. Now, shrug, you get used to it.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by AngelofDeth

I have over 300 recordings, about 80 when grouped. It takes about 8 seconds to scroll through it, hardly what i'd call a nightmare.

Hence the problem. To me, that is too long. At least the current way imposes a extra click penalty no you. For those who like the wraparound, it is about an order of magnitude more time.

That's why I argue that this isn't an issue of intuitiveness, but of taste.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by jquinlan

The one thing that is missing form the SAGE TV to Beyond TV comparison is the Media Center functions. Beyond TV does not include Media Center features out of the box, you have to buy it separately. Sage TV includes it so why make it another menu level down for functions you hype about why you are better and more inclusive.
SageMC gives me this; Pictures, Videos, TV, Weather and others right from the first level menu, its not an after though or another step. We use TV everyday, we use Video everyday with kids; it is almost spring on the east cost so we use the weather almost everyday because it can change that often. SageMC puts it all right there. It is just less cluttered for the WAF and the kids. The neighbors can stop buy and navigate easily. None of them would have picked it up as easily if the Sage UI was selected.

This is why I don’t think the Sage UI is the professional, consumer friendly interface that should be the default. It could be the hackers or tweekers interface.

But I don't want weather first because I don't use it everyday. I don't use pictures either or LiveTV. That's your taste, but not mine. The Default worked with my WAF for years before I changed it. And that was to remove or rename stuff.

My wife, no computer expert by any stretch had no problem understanding what "Sleep" means for example, which is why I renamed that option in Sage 5 back to sleep.