What's so bad about SageTV's UI?

[src666]

OK, this topic ends up being nothing but back and forth between those who believe the interface is fine, and those who think it needs improvement. Obviously, if you think it's fine, then you don't see the need for improvement. And vice-versa.

Let's try a little thought-experiment. Do you believe that the standard SageTV interface/organization/navigation can be improved? Not needs to be improved, just can it be?

I'll be the first to admit that the interface isn't "broken", per-se. It basically works, you can do what needs to be done, and the core functionality is very good. I can see that some people will find the default interface to be OK.

Likewise, if you can admit that there is room for improvement, even if you don't think it _needs_ improving, then maybe you can get a glimpse of what we see.

I see a great product that can be improved. I also have seen a lot of people dismiss the product because the OOB experience isn't up to what they expect from software that they have to pay for. I _hate_ that - they are missing out on some terrific functionality, and Sage is missing out on potential customers. There's a win-win to be had here, if only everyone will stop sniping at each other over differences of opinion.

We all already know what's good about SageTV, or we wouldn't be using it. There is room for improvement (as there is in any product), and some of us feel that improving it is more important than others. But let's stop knocking each other down over it. This isn't about ego, is it?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by src666

OK, this topic ends up being nothing but back and forth between those who believe the interface is fine, and those who think it needs improvement. Obviously, if you think it's fine, then you don't see the need for improvement. And vice-versa.

IMO, it seems to be more disagreement between whether the UI is fundamentally flawed or fundamentally works. Whether it "needs" an overhaul or not.

Let's try a little thought-experiment. Do you believe that the standard SageTV interface/organization/navigation can be improved? Not needs to be improved, just can it be?

Of course I think the interface can be improved, every interface can be improved. I don't think it needs to be improved though, I think it works well as is, and I think that any significant change to the interface brings with it a lot of risk and complications for a (IMO) small gain.

I'll be the first to admit that the interface isn't "broken", per-se. It basically works, you can do what needs to be done, and the core functionality is very good. I can see that some people will find the default interface to be OK.

Agreed.

Likewise, if you can admit that there is room for improvement, even if you don't think it _needs_ improving, then maybe you can get a glimpse of what we see.

I see a great product that can be improved. I also have seen a lot of people dismiss the product because the OOB experience isn't up to what they expect from software that they have to pay for.

Agreed, but very few have even attempted to explain/quantify what the problems are with that OOB experience.

I _hate_ that - they are missing out on some terrific functionality, and Sage is missing out on potential customers. There's a win-win to be had here, if only everyone will stop sniping at each other over differences of opinion.

I'm definitely not against talking about improvements, but what I really want to see in such a discussion is suggestions for not only what is sub-optimal, but more importantly, how it could be better. There's precious little of that, and I'm not knocking anyone in this thread, this has been one of the better ones, but traditionally we never get beyond "it's bad".

And FWIW, UI design is not easy, I started my own STV a while ago, posted the first bit of it in the downloads section. But I quickly ran into the what-goes-where wall and realized I was mostly happy with the current UI.

[flavius]

I just reinstalled everything (after two years). And after looking at the stock UI again, well, SageMC is nice, but.

How about putting the weather icon (and the temperature) on the first screen?

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

Well, as I'm sure you're aware, 5309 is supposed to be obscure. Those are unsupported extras, and meant only for the tweaker-geek. The guys who want the simple out-of-the-box interface are absolutely not likely to be looking for that, are they?

And...inconsistent? Or context-sensitive?

If they're unsupported, why are they in the stock UI? Why are not treated like all other unsupported material, and available as a download? And if they've been in the last two major releases, why are they still unsupported?

As fas as my definition of context-sensitive vs inconsistent design: context-sensitive means (to me) that features and functions would be added or changed depending on the context of the page; it doesn't mean that the navigational schema should change from page to page, or that an icon would represent one thing on one page and another on a different page UNLESS there was very specific indicators that the meaning had changed.

For example, on my cable box remote, there is an A, B, & C button. On every page of the setup menus and the EPG, the meaning of the button is clearly labeled. For all other buttons (Left, Right, Up, Down), meanings don't change. The design is both context-sensitive and consistent.

SageTV has other consistency issues besides button-functionality; for example, a folder in the Recorded TV section is represented one way, yet in the Media Center, it's a view. There are navigational icons that suddenly appear in the Media Center that do the same basic thing as clicks in the browser.

At this point, I think I've said all I can say about this; as others have pointed out, this discussion is truly going in circles at this point, and really, it's not worth raising my blood pressure over

[sainswor99]

And FWIW, UI design is not easy, I started my own STV a while ago, posted the first bit of it in the downloads section. But I quickly ran into the what-goes-where wall and realized I was mostly happy with the current UI.

In my experience, design is easy; development takes time. Most people don't design before they develop.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Taste.



He said nothing about taste; he indicated that the stock UI obfuscates certain feature functionality. His friends and your friends may like things to be difficult, but the issue isn't taste. It's consistency in design.

The interface is NOT fine. It works, but it could be better.

Opinion. Yours is that Sage's interface is not fine. My opinion is that it is. If it is difficult for you, then perhaps the issue is you.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

If they're unsupported, why are they in the stock UI? Why are not treated like all other unsupported material, and available as a download? And if they've been in the last two major releases, why are they still unsupported?

As fas as my definition of context-sensitive vs inconsistent design: context-sensitive means (to me) that features and functions would be added or changed depending on the context of the page; it doesn't mean that the navigational schema should change from page to page, or that an icon would represent one thing on one page and another on a different page UNLESS there was very specific indicators that the meaning had changed.

For example, on my cable box remote, there is an A, B, & C button. On every page of the setup menus and the EPG, the meaning of the button is clearly labeled. For all other buttons (Left, Right, Up, Down), meanings don't change. The design is both context-sensitive and consistent.

SageTV has other consistency issues besides button-functionality; for example, a folder in the Recorded TV section is represented one way, yet in the Media Center, it's a view. There are navigational icons that suddenly appear in the Media Center that do the same basic thing as clicks in the browser.

At this point, I think I've said all I can say about this; as others have pointed out, this discussion is truly going in circles at this point, and really, it's not worth raising my blood pressure over

Indeed. But to address your point, many pieces of software contain "Easter-egg" type items like this, in place only for the few who are hard-core enough to look for it or ask about it.

I've long since believe these dicussions were mostly fruitless because it is so clear that people have different tastes. Just a few post ago someone wanted the Weather stuff moved up. I have no problem with its currently location.

However, some care about LiveTV, which I don't.

Since the Sage guys cannot possible create a single interface that will please all users no matter how easy design is, they've included a means for people to modify the interface.

About the only oversights as I see it is:
1) Not having a means to save GUI changes across updates. For example, Intellij Idea, my ide does this. However, plugins are not necessarily guaranteed to work.

2) Not including Themes.

Regardless, they have been responsive when the requests have been reasonable. For instance, prior to 5(or maybe 4), watched shows were marked by having the text italicized. This was hard to see. They added a 'W', now, all's well.

But when it comes to moving items to suite the whims of each user, they had to compromise and I believe that they've done an admirable job. As Stanger(I believe) showed, their interface very closely mirrors BTV and that was held up as a shining example. Personally, I thought BTV crashed to much.

Ultimately, for every person that says the interface "needs" changes, someone will say that it doesn't. I'd rather they add the ability to specify a folder for archival and move files to that folder than screw around with the interface. The archival function will probably be used and appreciated by 85% of the user base, while the UI changes will initiate a "What's so bad about SageTV's UI? version 2"

[jominor]

Originally Posted by flavius

I just reinstalled everything (after two years). And after looking at the stock UI again, well, SageMC is nice, but.

How about putting the weather icon (and the temperature) on the first screen?

Have you looked at Dynamic Menus? You can do that easily. I, for example, liked the Archive to say "TV Library" and wanted it on the main level. I also wanted the 'exit" to say "Sleep". I removed LiveTV and actually plan to remove the Program Guide and Sleep because I use the Remote for those functions.

[IVB]

I actually think the SageMC menu is hard to understand, MUCH harder than the stock UI.

But SageMC lets me do ripped DVDs over the MediaMVP, and i'm no SageStudio expert, so stock SageMC for the MBR and stock SageUI (with my personal background) it is for the main TV room.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by IVB

I actually think the SageMC menu is hard to understand, MUCH harder than the stock UI.

But SageMC lets me do ripped DVDs over the MediaMVP, and i'm no SageStudio expert, so stock SageMC for the MBR and stock SageUI (with my personal background) it is for the main TV room.

I use the stock UI with ripped DVD on my MVP. It works great. Sorry I'm Confused???

[IVB]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

I use the stock UI with ripped DVD on my MVP. It works great. Sorry I'm Confused???

You do? Ok, i need to recheck it, but last I remember it didn't have a DVD menu option.

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by IVB

I actually think the SageMC menu is hard to understand, MUCH harder than the stock UI.

But SageMC lets me do ripped DVDs over the MediaMVP, and i'm no SageStudio expert, so stock SageMC for the MBR and stock SageUI (with my personal background) it is for the main TV room.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I'm wondering if you could explain what it is that makes the SageMC UI difficult to understand. Maybe something can be done about that. Thanks.

Aloha,
Mike

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by IVB

You do? Ok, i need to recheck it, but last I remember it didn't have a DVD menu option.

I thought maybe you ment the cover graphics or something and I don't use those - at least not yet. But when I play a DVD on the MVP it plays just like a regular client mostly. I can play more DVD's on a regular client - or at least I could until SageTV 6.1.8 anyway - can't find one that won't play on 6.1.8 yet. Anyway to get to the DVD menu while the DVD is playing I just bring up Options and DVD menu is available. It appears to work on the few DVDs I've tried but I can't say it works on all of them because I don't use it very much anyway. Or is my understanding of what you mean by DVD menu flawed. I'm referring to the menu on the DVD that allows you to go to specific chapters, extra features, etc...

BobP.

[IVB]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I'm wondering if you could explain what it is that makes the SageMC UI difficult to understand. Maybe something can be done about that. Thanks.

Aloha,
Mike

Honestly, I think it's just me. So many people love that skin, and given how many people dislike my screenshots (in sig below), i clearly think differently from the population. Stick with what you got - it works for most folks.

But if you'd like, I could look at it later today and create a seperate thread with where I get confused. I'd take it with a grain of salt, though.

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by IVB

But if you'd like, I could look at it later today and create a seperate thread with where I get confused. I'd take it with a grain of salt, though.

If you have the time and don't mind, I think it could be useful. I've often been in situations where I'm so close to something that I miss obvious things. A fresh perspective is usually very helpful. Of course I can't guarantee that anything will change, but if any good ideas come of it, then we can take it to Dirk and see what he thinks. Thanks.

Aloha,
Mike

[nielm]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

Well, as I'm sure you're aware, 5309 is supposed to be obscure. Those are unsupported extras, and meant only for the tweaker-geek.

Originally Posted by sainswor99

If they're unsupported, why are they in the stock UI? Why are not treated like all other unsupported material, and available as a download? And if they've been in the last two major releases, why are they still unsupported?

The 5309 features are ones that SageTV does not want to expose to the 'out of the box' user, and does not want to waste developer time with.

They should, in theory, be only available as a separate customisation, but as a lot of these features are extremely difficult to add as an import, and as merging STVs is also extremely difficult, they would be unlikely to exist if that rule was enforced by SageTV LLC.

So Consider that the SageTV STV with 5309 enabled is the SageTV UI developer's custom STV which is developed and maintained in (I guess) his own private time... yes, it's a bit wierd, but it is as wierd as a flight simulator in a spreadsheet app, and at least they are more functional.