Just what is a SageTV extender? What is a thin client or a thin server?

[gerdi]

I hope that the new extender of sageTV will not consume too much power.

For me a little XScale would just be right.
So I could use the extender as server, when it isn't used.
Also a standby would be useful.

I hope the new extender makes enough usage of the new decoding chips (like Horizon STB hz 4130, but I guess that it is not available yet).

For me the only thing the extender should do, is to listen on a port to a videostream that I send to it by my router-nas.
On another port controls should be possible.
Also IR-command should be replicated on a third port.

[gerdi]

I've heard, that the DSM-330 neither supports h.264 neither x.264 but only divx.

This makes it useless (H.264 is part of the future DVB-H). I don't want to use a pc only to transcode.

Didn't they hear about the broadcom BCM7411 who does all the decoding?

I hope that the sageTV expander will be better!!!

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by gerdi

I hope that the new extender of sageTV will not consume too much power.

Should be negligible. It's almost certainly based on a SOC (I'd guess Sigma Designs, maybe Broadcom).

For me a little XScale would just be right.
So I could use the extender as server, when it isn't used.

It's not going to have a general purpose processor, not in that sense at least. It's an extender, it won't be able to serve anything.

Also a standby would be useful.

Remember, it's not a PC, it's a extender, probably SOC based, so we're looking at negligible power on or off.

I hope the new extender makes enough usage of the new decoding chips (like Horizon STB hz 4130, but I guess that it is not available yet).

Expect full hardware decoding ala Sigma or Broadcom SOCs.

For me the only thing the extender should do, is to listen on a port to a videostream that I send to it by my router-nas.
On another port controls should be possible.
Also IR-command should be replicated on a third port.

It's not going to work anything like that. You should really look at the the current SD Extender/Hauppauge Media MVP for the type of operation to expect:

Basically, the extender will run a special version of SageTV software which will support rendering the UI but with the STV processing done on the server. It will support streaming media from the server via Sage's protocol for hardware decoding via the SOC. IR will be via an integral IR receiver in the hardware, the software in the box will interpret those IR commands and trigger the appropriate STV execution on the server. At least that's what I expect to see based on the SageTV architecture and what we know. I basically expect it to operate (at a user level) almost exactly like the current extender.

Remember, this is a SageTV Extender it extends the SageTV interface and functionality to supplemental displays via a "thin" client box.

[geogecko]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Remember, this is a SageTV Extender it extends the SageTV interface and functionality to supplemental displays via a "thin" client box.

Yep, otherwise you just build another HTPC. The idea is a cheap, diskless client that keeps the cost of extension down.

Can't wait for this thing to get here, but I've got other work to do before I'm even ready for it to begin with...got to work on the wireless network first.

[jdamore]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Basically, the extender will run a special version of SageTV software which will support rendering the UI but with the STV processing done on the server. It will support streaming media from the server via Sage's protocol for hardware decoding via the SOC. IR will be via an integral IR receiver in the hardware, the software in the box will interpret those IR commands and trigger the appropriate STV execution on the server. At least that's what I expect to see based on the SageTV architecture and what we know. I basically expect it to operate (at a user level) almost exactly like the current extender.

Nicely put. I just drooled on my shirt a little.

Sweet!

[gerdi]

It's not going to have a general purpose processor

I must confess that I don't understand how this extender works. To administrate SOC's, LAN, HDMI, HiFi there must be a processor, Flash RAM and ROM, Ram Memory ... I thought that the extender itself (and not only the client software) was written in linux?!
That's all you need for a webserver. (It can take supplementary memory from a USB-Stick or a NAS in the network).

I've got a Router (ASUS wl500gp) with linux. It works as a webserver, downloadmachine, bittorrent, mediaserver, video server ...
It has a whole Wikipedia on it. It administrates Joomla (xoops before). It has a MySQL, LightSQL, different webserver, php, perl, ftp-server, webbrowser, ssl, compiler, phpmyadmin, ...
It uses only an ARM.

DLINK DSM-520 uses also an ARM. You can access with telnet. There is also a busybox and dropbear ... Every extender I know has a little processor and could be used as webserver if I am right.
But it seems that the processor of the DSM is slightly to feable for a h.264 SOC.

So my conclusion was that the processor of a good extender would be slightly more powerful than the processor of the router (XScale or Strongarm perhaps). This would be useful for my webserver, because it is slightly too slow.

Remember, this is a SageTV Extender it extends the SageTV interface and functionality to supplemental displays via a "thin" client box.

But that's exactly what I'm searching for: a thin client.
This UPnP is much too expensive and terribly unsecure.
I only need a naked TCP connection (rtp http mms or mmsh or ...).
My router already can transmux everything the expander needs (but it can't do any transcoding of video).
To replicate IR signals on a TCP port shouldn't be a big task.
It makes the expander "thinner" because so the client can respond to IR-commands and the expander is liberated.

If I would have to construct an expander (what God never wouldn't allow!!) I would make a contract with ASUS and take the routerboard of the WL500GP. Then I would add SOC'S, HiFi and HDMI functionality and maximze the clockspeed at 300MHZ (maximum without active cooler). The whole thing would be an extender.

Am I wrong?

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by gerdi

But that's exactly what I'm searching for: a thin client.

What you are looking for is a thin server.

The HD Extender is a thin client, and that is all it is intended to do. Adding server features to it would increase the cost, and that is not what SageTV users want. They want an affordable HD Extender, much like the current SD Extender.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by gerdi

I must confess that I don't understand how this extender works. To administrate SOC's, LAN, HDMI, HiFi there must be a processor, Flash RAM and ROM, Ram Memory ... I thought that the extender itself (and not only the client software) was written in linux?!
That's all you need for a webserver. (It can take supplementary memory from a USB-Stick or a NAS in the network).

You're thinking the Placeshifter, perhaps. I have no idea what OS the extender device will use.

So my conclusion was that the processor of a good extender would be slightly more powerful than the processor of the router (XScale or Strongarm perhaps). This would be useful for my webserver, because it is slightly too slow.

The point is, don't expect to be able to install anything on the Extender.

But that's exactly what I'm searching for: a thin client.
This UPnP is much too expensive and terribly unsecure.
I only need a naked TCP connection (rtp http mms or mmsh or ...).

Sage doesn't use UPnP for anything except openning a placeshifter port on a UPnP capable router. It is NOT UPnP based.

My router already can transmux everything the expander needs (but it can't do any transcoding of video).
To replicate IR signals on a TCP port shouldn't be a big task.
It makes the expander "thinner" because so the client can respond to IR-commands and the expander is liberated.

If I would have to construct an expander (what God never wouldn't allow!!) I would make a contract with ASUS and take the routerboard of the WL500GP. Then I would add SOC'S, HiFi and HDMI functionality and maximze the clockspeed at 300MHZ (maximum without active cooler). The whole thing would be an extender.

Am I wrong?

Seriously, go take a look at the MVP and how Sage uses it as an extender. What you describe is nowhere close to how extenders work.

[gerdi]

What you describe is nowhere close to how extenders work.

What I found today!!!

Did you have a look at Networked Media Tank?

And it's cheap!! (<176$)

But it has to much commercial software on it.
I don't know if it is open source.
But it's linux with the wonderful syabas middle ware.

I don't know how the audio is like (What is SPDIF? optical? Dolby 5.1?)

[BBCritical]

http://www.syabas.com/download/Netwo...20Brochure.pdf

[gerdi]

For the SaveTV extender
To stay competitive:

a) Open source: Linux
b) No WLAN, No Hard Disk, No powerline, No USB: ONLY Ethernet
c) Good processor with low power
d) h.264 (by SoC)
e) hdmi 1.3
f) dolby at least 5.1 optical connector
g) No UPnP, only pure (secured) TCP/IP connection
h) <120$

(Real thin client:
No processor but only miniPCI-card (could be added to router with miniPCI))

[evilpenguin]

The tech spec is even more interesting...

http://www.syabas.com/download/Netwo...cification.pdf

The one thing that caught my eye was

* 4 standard definition streams (PAL and NTSC formats) in any of the following 
format: VC-1, H.264, MPEG-4 and MPEG-2
* One high definition stream 1920 x 1080i(60), 1920 x 1080p (30), 1280 x720p (60) and one standard definition stream simultaneously

That's sure sounds like PIP capabilites to me

[geogecko]

I like the ability to add a wifi-n card to it...

[fyodor]

EvilPenguin

Since you're the codec expert-do you have any sense of how flexible the decoders on this will be with respect to X.264 playback? I've found that the hardware accelerated Cyberlink x.264 decoder is very finicky about which files it will play back.

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

The tech spec is even more interesting...

http://www.syabas.com/download/Netwo...cification.pdf

The one thing that caught my eye was

* 4 standard definition streams (PAL and NTSC formats) in any of the following 
format: VC-1, H.264, MPEG-4 and MPEG-2
* One high definition stream 1920 x 1080i(60), 1920 x 1080p (30), 1280 x720p (60) and one standard definition stream simultaneously

That's sure sounds like PIP capabilites to me

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by fyodor

EvilPenguin

Since you're the codec expert-do you have any sense of how flexible the decoders on this will be with respect to X.264 playback? I've found that the hardware accelerated Cyberlink x.264 decoder is very finicky about which files it will play back.

No clue, but i'll sure be doing a ton of testing when the HDextender lands on my doorstep (which will be ~ 10 seconds + shipping time after they release it ).

I'll be very interested as to its container/format compatabilities are so I can figure out the optimal encoding profiles for my plug-in.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by gerdi

For the SaveTV extender
To stay competitive:

Competitive with what?

a) Open source: Linux

Why does it matter, Sage isn't OS, and it's competitive.

b) No WLAN, No Hard Disk, No powerline, No USB: ONLY Ethernet

OK, I see no HDD, but why should it NOT have WiFi or USB, and how many people could really support Power over Ethernet (or are you talking Powerline networking), in which case, why would it have it, or if it does, why shouldn't it.

c) Good processor with low power
d) h.264 (by SoC)

Those are a given.

e) hdmi 1.3

HDMI 1.3 is a solution in search of a problem, a marketing gimmick, take your pick.

f) dolby at least 5.1 optical connector

Didn't Jeff already confirm that?

g) No UPnP, only pure (secured) TCP/IP connection

How many times do we need to go over this, please, go look at what the current MVP/extender is and how it works. You really seem to have no idea what the HD extender will actually be.

SageTV is NOT a hardware manufacturer, they are a software developer/supplier/service provider. They are NOT creating a general-purpose thin client like you seem to think/expect/want. They are creating a SageTV specific software solution centered around hardware OEM'd from another company. Of course they will sell the hardware, but that will be purely out of convenience.

h) <120$

Not going to happen, the SD extender is $99 I believe.

Originally Posted by fyodor

Since you're the codec expert-do you have any sense of how flexible the decoders on this will be with respect to X.264 playback? I've found that the hardware accelerated Cyberlink x.264 decoder is very finicky about which files it will play back.

I'm sure you already know this, but I want to say it again so that everybody is perfectly clear:

x264 is not a codec. x264 is an encoder, and implementation of the H.264 (aka MPEG-4 AVC, aka MPEG-4 part 10) codec. From what I've been able to glean in the little I've looked at the "x264 acceleration" issue, the problem is not with x264, but with the people doing the encodes. x264 is just an encoder and it allows the user to tweak anything, as a result, it appears people are making encodes using encoding parameters in x264 that the current crop of accelerated codecs can't deal with.

Knowing that, it's hard to say whether a SOC decoder would have trouble with the same parameters, one would hope, that given that these SOCs are designed to a wide range of applications (HD DVD, Blu-ray, to DVB/Satellite), that they support a larger subset of the MPEG-4 part 10 specification.

However I do fear (to a degree) that people using x264 are using parameters that don't fall into any of the "industry standard" AVC profiles. For example, (unfortunately wikipedia is the most convenient place):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264
HD DVD, Blu-ray, and probably satellite are using High Profile (maybe Main for Sat?), I think HD DVD uses level 4, and Blu-ray 4.1 (Blu-ray has higher bandwidth ceiling).

What stands out to me, looking at this, is given the source and purpose of may "x264" encodes, I'd guess they're using some features from the "Extended Profile" which are to aid low-bitrate encoding that aren't supported in other profiles.

If you look at the Sigma 8630 series it supports H.264 BP@L3, MP@L4.1 and HP@L4.1, but not XP (the 8620 is the same but only to L4.0). If these problematic "x264" encodes are using XP features, then it's unlikely the extender will be able to handle them.

Now there is an alternative issue, and that is GOP size, HD DVD and Blu-ray have (IIRC) somewhat limited GOP size, to reduce memory requirements since storage/bandwidth isn't the primary issue, however x264 is quite likely encoded without concern for memory usage, using long GOPs. The problem with this being the likely cause is that Satellite generally uses huge GOPs because bandwidth is the primary concern, and IIRC ATI/nVidia don't have a problem accelerating satellite H.264, so that would indicate that that's not the issue.

There is one more I guess, it's been questioned if the splitter most commonly used with "x264" encodes (mkv) is the problem. If it's that, then provided Sage/extender can deal with that container, it shouldn't be a problem.

So I'm not sure what to think, if it's really an incompatible profile issue, I think those with XP encodes are SOL probably.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

No clue, but i'll sure be doing a ton of testing when the HDextender lands on my doorstep (which will be ~ 10 seconds + shipping time after they release it ).

Maybe they should setup a preorder, then it could be 10ms + shipping time, and it would save the filling out the order form time

I'll be very interested as to its container/format compatabilities are so I can figure out the optimal encoding profiles for my plug-in.

See the previous post, if you stick to HP@L4 (H.264), or AP@L3 (VC-1), you'll probably be fine. Probably best to stay away from MPEG-4 ASP (ie XviD/DivX) as the decoders appear to be limited to 720p with those.

Oh, and I just want to make it clear for everyone here, everything I post WRT the extender is pure speculation on my part, it's based on what little info has been posted on the forum (largely from what was learned about the demo unit shown an CES last winter). Hopefully it will prove to be educated and reasonable accurate speculation, but it's speculation none the less.

[fyodor]

FWIW, I've never been able to get any of the h264 encoded files that I created with your plugin to work with the Cyberlink decoder. It didn't really matter-it was rare that I would make any that were high resolution, but now that I'm going to be using a separate playback device, I'm more willing to have my main computer do long encodes.

F

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

No clue, but i'll sure be doing a ton of testing when the HDextender lands on my doorstep (which will be ~ 10 seconds + shipping time after they release it ).

I'll be very interested as to its container/format compatabilities are so I can figure out the optimal encoding profiles for my plug-in.

[gerdi]

I see that the NMT can RTSP.
I don't exactly know what it is.
But perhaps it is another point of my whishlist:
Replication of the remote control to a TCP/IP protocol?

Is there any expert that can confirm it?

(By the way: Did anyone have a look at the AB IPBox 900HD Or 9000HD?)

[Mahoney]

Replication of the remote control to a TCP/IP protocol?

Why would a Sage media extender do this? It doesn't need to send remote messages over TCP/IP. It communicates with only one thing - a Sage server, over Sage's proprietary protocol.