Changed Hardware, Now System is Unstable

[Abev107]

I should have left well enough alone. Sage was working for me for some time, pretty solid for 1 year at least.

I was running Sage on a Celeron 1.8. I was going through some computer equipment lying around and I realized I had a P4 3.0 that I wasn't using. So what the heck - I installed it. And so started all of the problems. Sage will not stay up for more than 1 hour.

I did everything I could think of - updated the bios - installed/reinstalled drivers for both the pvr 150 and my video card (radeon 9600). Clean reinstall of Sage. All of this multiple times.

Sage will run for anywhere from 20 to 40 minutes without problem, then lock up. It usually comes out of a lock up by itself, but during the lock up nothing is being recorded or played back. So like last night I recorded Lost and missed from 12:00 to 20:00.

Windows never crashes - I can restart Sage and it will work temporarily. That makes me wonder if it was hardware why wouldn't windows crash?

I enabled logging and I has noticed these that dont look too good:

Wed 3/5 19:53:44.208 WIN32 FAILURE HR=0x8000ffff FILE=.\PlaybackGraph.cpp LINE=80
Wed 3/5 19:53:44.208 WIN32 FAILURE HR=0x8000ffff FILE=.\PlaybackGraph.cpp LINE=92

And this one:

Wed 3/5 19:53:44.261 PIN is not connected yet!
Wed 3/5 19:53:44.261 M type MEDIATYPE_Video S type MEDIASUBTYPE_YUY2 F type FORMAT_VideoInfo2

I put it off but finally today I reinstalled Windows XP - same problems. I guess that means we are left with a hardware failure? It should be really easy for the answer to that to be "yes" but now I have to chase the problem all over the place. Bad MB? Processor? Failing Power supply? Bad Memory? Bad video card? Crappy software?

I bet I have spent well over 20 hours trying to troubleshoot this problem - hardly seems worth it? So wait I get to pay for the software AND troubleshoot it? Wow where do I sign up?

And before I get the obligatory - "did you contact support?", I did - two days ago and still no response. SO very frustrating to have a commercial product like this and be virtually on your own. At the very least a confirmation that you received my request for support?

I would prefer to get Sage working again but I have no idea what to do next. I will take any and all suggestions.

[GKusnick]

Have you checked you spam bucket? Nine times out of ten when people post to chastise Sage for poor support, it turns out that Sage did respond but the poster's spam filter ate it.

Since it seems that the CPU upgrade was the cause of your problem, have you tried putting back the Celeron CPU to see if that clears it up? You might also try reseating memory cards and other motherboard connectors just in case something got shaken loose.

[Polypro]

I know you're ticked, but if it *is* hardware related...it aint Sage's fault.

P

[tawd1992]

I know it can be frustrating when you get random errors. The first things that I always check are memory using Memtest & then the hard drive (HDTune is a good free app.) If those check out ok then try to isolate the problem by removing any hardware that isn't absolutely necessary (printer, modem pci card or any other pci cards.) I usually unplug the psu before removing or adding any pci cards.

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by Abev107

...I was running Sage on a Celeron 1.8. I was going through some computer equipment lying around and I realized I had a P4 3.0 that I wasn't using. So what the heck - I installed it. And so started all of the problems. Sage will not stay up for more than 1 hour....

Sounds like a classic case of a power supply that can handle so much power, and now with the new hardware, it can't.

Or, you knocked something loose.


BTW, 90% of the machines I've had problems with (maybe a few dozen), it's been after a hardware change, and it's a hardware failure.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by MattHelm

Sounds like a classic case of a power supply that can handle so much power, and now with the new hardware, it can't.

Or similarly, cooling was adequate for the old CPU but not for the new one.

[Abev107]

Originally Posted by Polypro

I know you're ticked, but if it *is* hardware related...it aint Sage's fault.

P

Totally agree with that. We have not figured out what the problem is yet.

Originally Posted by MattHelm

Sounds like a classic case of a power supply that can handle so much power, and now with the new hardware, it can't.

Or, you knocked something loose.

BTW, 90% of the machines I've had problems with (maybe a few dozen), it's been after a hardware change, and it's a hardware failure.

The question I have is that if this is a power supply OR cooling problem, wouldnt the pc fail in some other way? Wouldn't windows crash?

ASUS Probe shows decent temps ~52C processor, ~45C on the MB. I know I can't completely trust those numbers, but if the temps were too high I think it would show then higher.

Like tawd suggested, I will run memtest and hdtune. Then I guess the only other option in to drop back down to the celeron like GK said.

I always thought that if hardware failed, wouldn't the system be more unstable? Keep in mind Sage never crashes, and neither does windows - it just temporarily freezes (several minutes).

Thanks for everyone thoughts - if anyone has any other thoughts throw em at me. I have an exciting Friday night ahead of me

[bluenote]

*ONLY* having sage "lock up" doesn't sound like bad hardware, at least in my opinion, especially considering it comes back. Without having all the information it's awfully hard to guess right the first time though.

Does CPU for sage go 100% that whole time? If it does then thats where you need to start looking.

If its more of a HARD lockup of just sage, then you probably need to send your debug logs to support. (Yes, they *are* slow, but they do get back to you.)

My first tack would be to follow the CPU clue (if it in fact exists). Then I'd be looking at hauppague drivers/cards (run with one .. any better?) Then probably video. My gut tells me s/w though, whether its drivers, config , what have you.

good luck.

Cory

EDIT: I'm assuming that this wasn't a clean CPU only swap, and that other things changed. if thats not the case and it WAS a clean cpu swap with nothing else done then I'd say you are likely looking at environmental issues as posters above mentioned. If you had to change the motherboard or anything else, then its not that simple.

[Abev107]

Originally Posted by cnovak

*ONLY* having sage "lock up" doesn't sound like bad hardware, at least in my opinion, especially considering it comes back. Without having all the information it's awfully hard to guess right the first time though.

Does CPU for sage go 100% that whole time? If it does then thats where you need to start looking.

If its more of a HARD lockup of just sage, then you probably need to send your debug logs to support. (Yes, they *are* slow, but they do get back to you.)

My first tack would be to follow the CPU clue (if it in fact exists). Then I'd be looking at hauppague drivers/cards (run with one .. any better?) Then probably video. My gut tells me s/w though, whether its drivers, config , what have you.

good luck.

Cory

EDIT: I'm assuming that this wasn't a clean CPU only swap, and that other things changed. if thats not the case and it WAS a clean cpu swap with nothing else done then I'd say you are likely looking at environmental issues as posters above mentioned. If you had to change the motherboard or anything else, then its not that simple.

Thanks cnovak - to answer what you asked:

I have noticed that sagetvservice goes to 50% during the freeze. I don't know if it's normal.

I sent Sage the debug logs so it's a race to see who fixes it first, us or them

I am assuming that drivers/windows is not the problem as I did a totally clean XP install with all updated drivers. Then again, we won't know till I find the problem.

After I test the memory and HD I will have a better idea. I just had a thought - I am not entirely sure but I think I may have a 350w PS - I wonder if that's a bit weak? Again, I was always under the impression that if a PS was weak or bad that it would pull windows down completely as opposed to just one app?

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Abev107

it just temporarily freezes (several minutes).

What does it show in the log when this happens? Is there a gap of several minutes, or are the log entries continuous? If the latter, what sort of activity does it show?

Have you tried running Sage as a service to see whether it's the service or the UI process that's hanging?

[MrD]

If the cpu was the only thing changed. Then it must be something related to the change.

Have you tried replacing the old processor?

The P4 and Celeron are quite different in terms of power / heat requirements.

Power Supply, heat sink are good things to check.

A memory test is also a good suggestion. Is the memory matched? The P4 may access memory differently.

[MrD]

Originally Posted by Abev107

After I test the memory and HD I will have a better idea. I just had a thought - I am not entirely sure but I think I may have a 350w PS - I wonder if that's a bit weak? Again, I was always under the impression that if a PS was weak or bad that it would pull windows down completely as opposed to just one app?

Not sure about the rest of your system, buy 350 should be plenty for a "normal" system (assuming 1-2 drives, no SLI, 1 capture card...)

[Abev107]

Here's my system:

Asus P4P800 E motherboard
Intel P4 3.0 processor
2 sticks Crucial DDR 400 512k RAM
Radeon 9600 PCI
Hauppauge Pvr 150
Sony DVD burner
WinXP Pro
WD 60Gig ATA Hard drive
WD 150gig ATA Hard Drive

Running memtest now...

[JREkiwi]

You may also need to upgrade your motherboard bios to support that processor.

John

[Abev107]

Originally Posted by JREkiwi

You may also need to upgrade your motherboard bios to support that processor.

John

Thanks JRE - did that in Phase III of the rebuild.

Memtest passed - hdtune passed on the hard drives. I just pulled the box apart reseated the processor, flipped the memory slots, and double checked all connections.

I left out one detail from my old stable system I had a Geforce fx5500. This whole rebuild started from me wanting to watch youtube vids and I needed vmr9. Everytime I switched it to vmr9 sage said I couldn't bc my card did not support acceleration. So I had a radeon 9600 laying around and put that in thinking this would make a difference.

So just now I put the Nvidia back in and so far we are rock solid for nearly 30 minutes! One thing that is actually promising in a weird way is when I started up just now, I get decent video with pixelated dropouts (is that the correct term?) Like the picture would digitally deteriorate then quickly come back, then deteriorate. This is what happened previously on startup (with my stable system) and was remedied either with a Sage restart or simply putting it to sleep and coming back live.

Let's see what happens...Currently trying to figure out why my Haup 35 button remote doesnt work correctly.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Abev107

So I had a radeon 9600 laying around and put that in thinking this would make a difference.

Apparently it did.

[Abev107]

Made it nearly 1 hour watching live tv. However, I can crash Sage ( I have noticed this before in all of my troubles). All I need to do is hammer the remote - keep pressing the status button so the OSD pops up and within about 20 presses Sage will freeze. I know this isn't normal behaviour, but this basically mimics watching a 1 hour program where you will skip through commercials. Anyone ever seen this before?

I guess my next step is to go back to the celeron and see what that does...

[davephan]

How much memory is being used? Subtract 'used memory' from 'total memory' in Windows Task Manager (Control-Shift-ESC).

My computer typically consumes about 1 gig memory all the time. My old system was configured with 512 meg memory. Then I increased it to 1 gig, and it ran much better. The new system runs even better at 2 gigs.

I agree that the power supply and heat may be the problems. Does SageTV run reliablely if you take off the case covers and setup a portable room cooling fan to blow air at the computer? If so, then heat is your problem.

Dave

[Rupp]

Cut you time losses and get one of these value systems from eCollegePC. I bought this and it's been smooth sailing.
http://www.ecollegepc.com/

[Abev107]

I think I have had a mini breakthrough. I *think*. The only casualty is my wiz.bin is lost - probably 2.5 years worth.

Apparently there are some references to hardware in wiz? Not entirely sure but everytime I put my old wiz back in action I have the problems - but a fresh wiz and it seems stable.

The other thing that may have caused problems was my old wiz was pointing to a 'Frey Technologies' folder, instead of the 'SageTV' folder. I think the Frey folder was used many versions ago. I have no idea what wiz I was using and from where.

I am not entirely sure what's going on...I would love to save my viewing history from the wiz but a stable Sage is more important. Many I am blaming wiz for other issues?