Privacy Issues

[scott2020]

The thing I noticed recently, when I re-did my network connections in the house and plugged in my PC running Sage, whenever SageTV application is running, I see almost a constant data stream on the switch port. The data activity light flashes all the time. When I stop the Sage application, the flashing stops. Sage is obviously doing something, but I don't know what. It could be syncing with my back end server that stores my music and pictures, talking to my Slim server, doing EPG updates, whatever. I haven't installed Wireshark or something like that to see what it is actually doing. I will admit I did find it strange and want to have a peek at the packets flowing to see what is really going on. I don't think the OP's concerns are totally paranoid or unfounded.

[stanger89]

SageTV essentially constantly scans library import directories so if you've got one of or more network shares as import directories you'll see that.

[matt91]

Sage scans your imported media with amazing frequency (http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24849)

[scott2020]

That is what I was thinking/hoping because I do have network shares in my import settings.

“Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you”

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by othy

If you're so worried about privacy, what makes you think you can trust a third party EPG app any more than you can trust the people at SageTV?

It's a matter of control, convenience, and motivation.

Using Sage as an example, they have a stated interest in how people set up their systems. They also have a very nice profit-based motivation in mining the useage data. Since their software connects to their servers, they can very easily pull that data if they so choose, at any time.


On the other hand, if you sign up with a third party EPG service, while you can claim they might have similar potential interests in your useage data, they don't have an easy way to get that from you. If you're using a third party app not provided by them, they don't control the code, and thus have no easy way to grab anything from you. And especially if it's possible to skip the client altogether and just grab the raw data via HTML or FTP, than it's even safer.

So as you can see, it's not a matter of trusting one company versus another. It's a matter of controlling the information flow and using products and companies in a way that minimizes the potential for a monopolization of control.

[evilpenguin]

"You know, there's a word for people who think everyone is conspiring against them."
"I know: perceptive."

[mattdcknsn]

The only way to be 100% certain is to unplug.

[Taddeusz]

My first thought from this forum thread is just... wow. I can totally understand wanting to control what information gets distributed about you. But where do you draw the line? You use a credit card anywhere you go into a database. There's just a multitude of ways that information could be collected about you. To worry about every little thing seems to me like more work than it's worth. Where does it stop?

I'm more concerned about financial information than anything else. If someone really wants to bore themselves silly looking at my TV viewing data I honestly really don't care. They wouldn't see anything interesting anyway. I'll be the first one to admit that I'm a pretty boring person.

But to be constantly paranoid about absolutely any data leaking out that you don't want known, IMHO, does not sound like a fun life to me. Even if you paid cash everywhere you have to get that cash from somewhere. Use an ATM to get it. They may not know what you did with the cash but they know how much you got.

I'm not at all trying to downplay the importance of privacy but there's definitely a line drawn where concern for one's own privacy turns into obsessive paranoia.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by mattdcknsn

The only way to be 100% certain is to unplug.

I agree with that. No way to be 100% certain unless you are not connected to the internet.

Personally, Sage can have whatever TV viewsing information they want to have - I gave up watching porno years ago

[sandor]

Just for me....


This is part of the reason i have a dedicated HTPC. I do not check mail or surf the web etc on it. I watch and record tv, have my music, have a ripped collection of DVDs and that is it.

By only keeping data that i am not worried about on my HTPC, it greatly lessens my concerns about who is accessing it.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by sandor

Just for me....


This is part of the reason i have a dedicated HTPC. I do not check mail or surf the web etc on it. I watch and record tv, have my music, have a ripped collection of DVDs and that is it.

By only keeping data that i am not worried about on my HTPC, it greatly lessens my concerns about who is accessing it.

That's is exactly what I was going to suggest to the OP. Then the ONLY info they could get is TV related.

[toricred]

If you're that concerned about it, maybe software like SageTV isn't for you. If you live your life being afraid of everything and everyone, then you will probably have a very miserable life indeed.

[MeInMaui]

If you have this level of distrust for SageTV, then I'd say don't do business with them. Switch to an open source project. That way you have access to all of the source code and you can scan it line by line to make sure nothing shady is going on.

Aloha,
Mike

[Razillian]

Working in the Information Security field, I can relate with a persons right to privacy of information (personably identifiable or otherwise), but you do come off sounding a bit like a tin-foil-hat nut job (not an insult, everyone I know thinks I am a tin-foil-hat nutjob when I start talking about the FISA Amendment...until they read it).

I just think you have gone about this wrong, instead of asking for a way to shut it all off (which is basically unplugging the computer from the internet or just closing down all the ports sage makes use of on your firewall), perhaps you should instead send a request to sage asking them for a writeup of what data they collect and how they use said data. If they are not willing to answer an email on the subject, then become drastic (unplugging from the internet or going the opensource route, of course unless you read every line of code from an opensource project you will never know what it is collecting either).

[GKusnick]

I think it's also worth pointing out that SageTV is not some faceless corporate giant like Verizon or Microsoft. They're a small company whose principals are actively involved in customer relations and work directly with beta testers and third-party developers to solve problems and improve the product. Many of us old-timers have come to know and respect the people we've dealt with at Sage. So our assessment that they're worthy of our trust is not head-in-the-sand naivete but a reasoned judgment based on direct personal experience.

I appreciate that new users who lack this experience may be less trusting, and that's fine. Do what you need to do to address your privacy concerns. But to go beyond that and assert (without evidence) that the people at Sage cannot or should not be trusted, and that their reassurances about privacy issues are worthless, is unwarranted. Your understandable reluctance to trust them, based on past experience with other companies, does not mean they're untrustworthy. All it means is that you don't know enough yet about SageTV in particular to form an opinion of their trustworthiness. That's an important distinction to keep in mind.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

My first thought from this forum thread is just... wow. I can totally understand wanting to control what information gets distributed about you. But where do you draw the line? You use a credit card anywhere you go into a database. There's just a multitude of ways that information could be collected about you. To worry about every little thing seems to me like more work than it's worth. Where does it stop?

I'm more concerned about financial information than anything else. If someone really wants to bore themselves silly looking at my TV viewing data I honestly really don't care. They wouldn't see anything interesting anyway. I'll be the first one to admit that I'm a pretty boring person.

But to be constantly paranoid about absolutely any data leaking out that you don't want known, IMHO, does not sound like a fun life to me. Even if you paid cash everywhere you have to get that cash from somewhere. Use an ATM to get it. They may not know what you did with the cash but they know how much you got.

I'm not at all trying to downplay the importance of privacy but there's definitely a line drawn where concern for one's own privacy turns into obsessive paranoia.

Yes, there is a multitude of ways information can be collected about a person. This is not about turning into a hermit - it's about having informed consent and control about *what* information goes out to *whom*.

If I place an order online, I know exactly what information I'm giving out to who, and I know whether and how the transaction is secured. But a call-home routine is a whole other ballgame. It's a blind "you don't need to know what information we pull, just trust us" approach which should cause grave concern for people.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by toricred

If you're that concerned about it, maybe software like SageTV isn't for you. If you live your life being afraid of everything and everyone, then you will probably have a very miserable life indeed.

You don't understand. This has nothing to do with fear, it has to do with being intelligent and prudent.

Do you live your life in fear of being hit by a car when you go out of your house? Probably not - but I'll bet you look before crossing a street. Do you live your life in fear that someone will break into your house? Probably not, but I'll bet you lock the doors - at least at night, or when you're not home.

That's not being fearful, it's simply being intelligent.


Because the flipside of your accusation is people who are ignorant sheep who mock people for actually paying attention to the world around them. I'd say that if you pay no attention about how you are and might be affected by everything and everyone, than you will *definitely* have a miserable life indeed. Because if you're that clueless, you're going to get robbed, hurt, and killed, and you won't even have the good sense to understand why.

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Razillian

I just think you have gone about this wrong, instead of asking for a way to shut it all off (which is basically unplugging the computer from the internet or just closing down all the ports sage makes use of on your firewall), perhaps you should instead send a request to sage asking them for a writeup of what data they collect and how they use said data. If they are not willing to answer an email on the subject, then become drastic (unplugging from the internet or going the opensource route, of course unless you read every line of code from an opensource project you will never know what it is collecting either).

Well, as I said earlier, I emailed them two weeks ago and never even got the courtesy of a response. That being the case, I don't think I need to change products, only work around the issue. Using a third party EPG and blocking Sage's internet access should do the trick.

[Taddeusz]

Did you even bother reading their privacy policy?

http://www.sagetv.com/privacy.html?navA=privacy

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Did you even bother reading their privacy policy?

http://www.sagetv.com/privacy.html?navA=privacy

Thank you for the attitude. And yes, I bothered to read the privacy policy. I did that before I emailed them two weeks ago.

How about you try asking questions without the attitude next time? It keeps things a bit more civil.