Privacy Issues

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

Thank you for the attitude. And yes, I bothered to read the privacy policy. I did that before I emailed them two weeks ago.

How about you try asking questions without the attitude next time? It keeps things a bit more civil.

Ok, but if you won't trust what they put in their privacy policy then what use is civil discourse? It states in plain English exactly what information they collect and what they do with it. What more is it you're looking for?

[Twinkle]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Ok, but if you won't trust what they put in their privacy policy then what use is civil discourse?

Oh, God. Forgive me, but I'm going to pretend you didn't say that.

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

It states in plain English exactly what information they collect and what they do with it. What more is it you're looking for?

Plain english? Let's see:


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We also receive technical information every time a Visitor or User views our Web site or accesses our servers via the SageTV service within the SageTV application. The information we collect and receive includes the date and time of the visit to our site or servers, what pages are viewed and how long each page is viewed, the Visitor or User's IP address and other various technical statistics.
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So, they receive "technical information" and "other various technical statistics". That tells you in plain english *exactly* what information they collect? Really?


And in any case, regardless of what's stated, they can pull whatever they want whenever they want if it's occurring through a call-home routine. What I want is the ability to stop this from occurring. Given what was stated earlier, it would appear that the best way to do this is to use third party EPG data and block Sage from the internet.

That being the case, what I want is for Sage to incorporate an easy way to use third party EPG data. Right now, when I look into what's involved, it's a real mess.


And on a side note, if you inherently trust what companies tell you instead of securing your own privacy/safety/etc..., then you're going to get shafted. History has taught that lesson many times - it's worth heeding.

[unkyjoe]

If I place an order online, I know exactly what information I'm giving out to who, and I know whether and how the transaction is secured. But a call-home routine is a whole other ballgame. It's a blind "you don't need to know what information we pull, just trust us" approach which should cause grave concern for people.

Not really you don't, you just think you do. I mean you didnt write the software that collects that information, therefore this statement is inncorrect.

I understand your issues on Privacy, I think all of us here do, I do however think I would be a little more worried about giving out my CC information that I would about Sage collection viewing habits. I would try again to contact them concerning the issue and if they dont answer it to your satisfaction then stop using the software and quit your trolling on this forum.

Nuff said!

[Taddeusz]

But where does the distrust stop? At some point you have to put trust in a person or an entity that they will do exactly what they say they will do. SageTV isn't some huge money grubbing conglomerate. If it were discovered that they were collecting personal data through EPG updates that wasn't specifically disclosed in their privacy policy I'm sure they'd lose a lot of customers over it. I don't see that they have any reason to violate their own privacy policy.

[bhyman1]

You're posting on a publicly accessible web forum and you're worried about privacy?

[bastafidli]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

That being the case, what I want is for Sage to incorporate an easy way to use third party EPG data. Right now, when I look into what's involved, it's a real mess.

That seems to me like a feature request. If you do decide to go with Sage in its current state I suggest you submit it to Sage and get in line with the rest of us. We are all paying customers and we all wants some additional features, you are just one of us with different priorities. I think yours is a good idea but so it Netflix Watch Now, support for subtitles, ability to select audio tracks in mp4s and tons of others.

Once
a) there is more people with request similar to yours or
b) you invest enough money for Sage to be worth to implement it rather than loosing you as a customer or
c) they run out of other stuff to work on
you may get your feature. The same applies to all other features we want.

Based on the responses I saw so far it doesn't seems like there is a strong interest in this though. I think we are all pragmatists, and trade certain level of privacy for convenience, but at least we do it based on the upfront knowledge of the attitude of the company and its employees. I have not yet come across software/hardware business with better attitude towards its customers as Sage as this forums prove.

[othy]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

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We also receive technical information every time a Visitor or User views our Web site or accesses our servers via the SageTV service within the SageTV application. The information we collect and receive includes the date and time of the visit to our site or servers, what pages are viewed and how long each page is viewed, the Visitor or User's IP address and other various technical statistics.
---------------------


So, they receive "technical information" and "other various technical statistics". That tells you in plain english *exactly* what information they collect? Really?

Genuine question here, not an attack. What third party EPG software have you found that has a privacy statement worded more precisely than this? This seems like pretty standard boilerplate to me.

And again, I can't get past the notion that the third-party software I choose could still collect a bunch of data to transmit when it calls home. At least SageTV has a track record with me. If I switch over to a third-party provider, I'm back at square one as far as who to trust in regards to data collection.

Tim

[CyRex]

1. Collect user's viewing info
2. ???
3. Profit

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by othy

Genuine question here, not an attack. What third party EPG software have you found that has a privacy statement worded more precisely than this? This seems like pretty standard boilerplate to me.

And again, I can't get past the notion that the third-party software I choose could still collect a bunch of data to transmit when it calls home. At least SageTV has a track record with me. If I switch over to a third-party provider, I'm back at square one as far as who to trust in regards to data collection.

Tim

He's saying that because a third party EPG service is disconnected from SageTV that it shouldn't be unknowingly collecting viewing data.

[Opus4]

I thought it was stated that this had been researched on the forum before posting. If not, this is what was said the last time someone thought more was going on:

Originally Posted by dkardatzke

Let me clear this up before this thread gets any longer. The information we collect from your SageTV system when you hit the server is hardware specific. For example what tuners you are using, how many and other information that helps us with support situations. It's also helpful to know how many users are using single tuner verse multi-tuners and how many are using SD vs. HD when making decisions about future features for the product.

As far as show information, this is housed locally on your PC in the Wiz database and that information is not sent back to us so we can't tell how many of you enjoy a late night program on Cinemax compared to those of you that enjoy the occasional episode of Barney. If we ever did any tracking or reporting we would definitely notify you and this would be considered a major change to our privacy policy.

Hope that helps.
Dan

You can choose whether you want to believe this statement from SageTV, but that is the extent of it.

There is no opt-out choice if you are using the EPG data provided by SageTV.

If you emailed them about this, then they either didn't get your email or you didnt get their reply.

- Andy

[sandor]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

Oh, God. Forgive me, but I'm going to pretend you didn't say that.

twinkle, how about you just run Sage as a stand alone HTPC, like i do. that way nothing but television viewing habits are available? i do absolutely nothing else on my server.

another positive of a stand alone HTPC is that it is **much** more stable than a multi-use PC with SageTV (or any DVR) installed on it.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

He's saying that because a third party EPG service is disconnected from SageTV that it shouldn't be unknowingly collecting viewing data.

Regardless of where the data comes from, a third-party plugin that uses the SageTV API to put EPG data into Wiz.bin can just as easily pull favorite lists, watched history, imported video titles, and so forth out of Wiz.bin and transmit them who-knows-where. As othy says, unless the plugin is open-source and you have the competence to read it (or write it yourself), you've just traded trust in a known entity (the SageTV devs) for trust in some unknown pseudonymous person somewhere out there in the interwebs.

[Polypro]

I hear BeyondTV sends absolutely no info, none at all...go check 'em out.

http://www.snapstream.com/

P

[bluenote]

Why bother emailing if your attitude is no one can be trusted anyways? If they were nefarious as you claim they would likely just lie about it anyways.

You've already consumed more person-hours with this "discussion" than if you put your "actual experience" to work and fired up a packet capture.

The simple fact is, if you run software you are vulnerable to the particular software company, plus any insecurities and vulnerabilities that may be exploited.

I'm so tired of FUD mongers. Please stop taking the amphetamines and go back to your normal medication, it'll be easier on all of us.

Cory

[Yalbik]

What's with all the negativity in the responses?

I've seen a lot of requests on these forums for items that would only benefit a small % of users, but I've never seen this sort of backlash before!

If Twinkle wants to know what Sage is doing with his data, or if he wants to know if their is a way to stop Sage from "phoning home", that's his business.

Many of us (including myself) may feel he is being overly-cautious with his personal data, but that is his decision to make, not ours. In a way I can see his point. It would be fairly straightforward to architect an EPG update process such that their was no way for it to send usage data from the wiz.bin to the server. Unfortunately, given that Sage has a fully integrated EPG update process, there can be no such guarantees.

Does anyone with studio knowledge know whether it would be possible to create a third-party plug-in that could update the EPG? I'm not offering to build such a beast, I'm just wondering if this might be an option Twinkle might want to pursue.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Yalbik

What's with all the negativity in the responses?

I think at least part of it is due to the fact that he's repeatedly said that the SageTV folks can't be trusted. Not that he doesn't trust them (a statement about him) but that they are untrustworthy (a statement about them). Some of us take exception to that.

Originally Posted by Yalbik

Does anyone with studio knowledge know whether it would be possible to create a third-party plug-in that could update the EPG?

Yes, of course it's possble. But as I pointed out earlier, nothing stops such a plugin (or any third-party plugin for that matter) from extracting data from Wiz.bin and sending it anywhere. Unless you have access to the source code and the skills to evaluate it, you're still stuck trusting somebody.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by Polypro

I hear BeyondTV sends absolutely no info, none at all...go check 'em out.

This is simply not true. Your license code is sent to Snapstream and from there they know an awful lot about who you are. They also collect viewing information, but you can opt out of that. (If you trust that checking that little box actually does anything. )

[CyRex]

Originally Posted by Yalbik

What's with all the negativity in the responses?

Adding on to what GKusnick already said, I think Twinkle's remarks came off as a bit condescending. Also, he consistently countered any suggestions that he may be over-cautious by saying anyone not as cautious as he was ignorant.

At least that is the feeling I got when reading this thread...

-Dan

[toricred]

Originally Posted by Twinkle

You don't understand. This has nothing to do with fear, it has to do with being intelligent and prudent.

Do you live your life in fear of being hit by a car when you go out of your house? Probably not - but I'll bet you look before crossing a street. Do you live your life in fear that someone will break into your house? Probably not, but I'll bet you lock the doors - at least at night, or when you're not home.

That's not being fearful, it's simply being intelligent.


Because the flipside of your accusation is people who are ignorant sheep who mock people for actually paying attention to the world around them. I'd say that if you pay no attention about how you are and might be affected by everything and everyone, than you will *definitely* have a miserable life indeed. Because if you're that clueless, you're going to get robbed, hurt, and killed, and you won't even have the good sense to understand why.

Actually around where I live almost nobody locks their doors ever.

That aside, what I'm saying is that if you don't trust Sage, then don't do business with them.

[stuckless]

Also, he consistently countered any suggestions that he may be over-cautious by saying anyone not as cautious as he was ignorant.

I think there is some truth to that.... and the phrase "ignorance is bliss" is more than just a quip.... we really are happier when we are ignorant. I think ignorant here refers to knowledge and not a person's behaviour.

I also find it interesting that when the issue of privacy is raised, whether it be justified or not, it's retorted with "paranoid", "tin-hat", "black trucks", "over cautious" and other statements that are meant to belittle the person and doesn't attack the argument.

Privacy is important. Understanding what is being done with your private information is also important.

While I trust Sage that they will deal fairly with my private information, I'm not naive enough to think that they are storing all of it in an ecrypted database, or that even my most personal information is being encrypted, like addresses, credit card, etc. I'm a software developer, and I've seen too many times where private information is stored unencrypted with the only protection being that someone will never hack into the database.

In reviewing this thread... it should be closed. It's degenered to name calling with both side not really expressing any valid points other than attacking the people making them.