How do the media extenders work?

[kbyrd]

I thought the media extenders ran their own UIs and then talked some control protocol and video streaming protocol to the server. After reading the FAQ, I realized that extra UI changes on the server show up on the extenders, so it appears it is much more like a remote display protocol like X, VNC, RDP, Citrix and such. More like a "video card with a network port".

I'm asking out of technical curiosity, but also thinking about what it would take to build a slim set top box. I like the idea that all the settings are on the server and not on the set top box.

Is this protocol documented? Are there other devices out there? Can I actually buy the SageTV extender right now or is perpetually backordered?

[CollinR]

kick@$$!

It's basically the same as being at the server, it can do everything the server can do.

[stanger89]

It functions more like X (UI rendered on the client) than RDP (where the UI is rendered on the server), from what I've gathered.

No, the protocol is not public and no, there aren't any other devices that work.

FWIW, I'm not 100% sure what "settings" you mean, but the guide and recording schedule info are always on the server, even with PC clients.

[kbyrd]

kick@$$!

It's basically the same as being at the server, it can do everything the server can do.

I'm looking more for a "what are the technical details" answer. Given that it's just like being at the server, there has to be some sort of remote display thing going on, and I wanted to know if it's something specifically baked into the hauppauge and Sage boxes of if it's possible to build something else low powered, small, quiet that'll do it too.


Oh, stanger89 answered. RDP doesn't "render" on the server, from what I understand. I'm under the impression it's basically sending Windows GDI commands over the wire, similar to X.

Ok, so can I actually get a Sage extender? That is, does anyone know why they're out of stock? Or, have people built really slim (maybe with an external DC power brick) front end boxes to run SageTV client? Ideally it's all passively cooled.

[CollinR]

You will need to search both back when the users created it or at one of the other aftermarket versions. I'm thinking thats it's some variant of vnc though.

EDIT:

This however makes me confused as the different hardware is actually utilized on the devices.


The HD Extenders seem to sell out rather quickly, they will have more.

Hold out for an HD extender it's a better deal all around then a PC client unless you must surf the web on your display.

Originally Posted by kbyrd

I wanted to know if it's something specifically baked into the hauppauge and Sage boxes of if it's possible to build something else low powered, small, quiet that'll do it too.

It's totally possible, the actual application package is the mvp.bin in the sage directory. Thats how the MVP works anyway, the HD version should be similar however it can download and store it whereas the MVP downloads it on each boot via tftp.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by kbyrd

I'm looking more for a "what are the technical details" answer. Given that it's just like being at the server, there has to be some sort of remote display thing going on, and I wanted to know if it's something specifically baked into the hauppauge and Sage boxes of if it's possible to build something else low powered, small, quiet that'll do it too.

The HD100 runs it's own OS and loads it's own (internal) client app that connects to the server for access the server. The MVP network boots and loads an image from the server. The logic executes in the server's context, but the UI is drawn on the extender.

Oh, stanger89 answered. RDP doesn't "render" on the server, from what I understand. I'm under the impression it's basically sending Windows GDI commands over the wire, similar to X.

Admittedly, I've never looked into how RDP works, but here's more what I'm getting at, with RDP your session lives on the server and survives even if your RDP session is disconnected. So it "seems" like the UI is rendered on the server, how it gets that rendering to the client, I don't know.

X on the other hand only works so long as that connection is present, kill the connection and you can't reconnect.

Ok, so can I actually get a Sage extender? That is, does anyone know why they're out of stock?

My guess:
1) They're really popular
2) They're a small enough volume that the OEM only makes them in periodic batches, so Sage has wait in between.

Maybe they had to contract orders for the whole year and underestimated it's success?

Or, have people built really slim (maybe with an external DC power brick) front end boxes to run SageTV client? Ideally it's all passively cooled.

What exactly is your goal? A 780g or 790gx motherboard with a 45W Athlon X2 could make a pretty good client. They only pull about 80W or so tops.

You're not going to be able to build your own device that runs the extender software, but you could build a small, quiet client if you wanted to.

Originally Posted by CollinR

You will need to search both back when the users created it or at one of the other aftermarket versions. I'm thinking thats it's some variant of vnc though.

EDIT:

This however makes me confused as the different hardware is actually utilized on the devices.

That's only the Hauppauge Media MVP and only when running the original Hauppauge software. Someone wrote a plugin that would send the windowed UI to the Hauppauge MVP over VNC.

However the "official" client for the MVP, nor the HD100 work like that.

[stuckless]

The linux device in this post seems like it would be a great device on which to port a sage frontend. It would be like having an HD Extender and HD-PVR in a single box, for a similar price as either the HD-PVR or the HD Extender. ($249US)

I was looking into buying one to play with... but unfortunately, they don't ship to Canada

[kbyrd]

First of all, thanks for all the answers.
About X vs. RDP, I had that same thought while driving after I posted it. With X, you certainly get "more of the stack" then with RDP.

Originally Posted by stanger89

What exactly is your goal? A 780g or 790gx motherboard with a 45W Athlon X2 could make a pretty good client. They only pull about 80W or so tops.

That's a great question. I've got a single encoder/client box now. I just set it up, I'm just now replacing my TiVo. I want a back end not just for Sage but also as a small NAS for the rest of the home network. So, I then want a small (size, noise) front-end and it seemed like an interesting problem to build one myself.

I've never investigated small PCs except for building a carPC, it's similar, but I wasn't worried about video so CPU and decoder requirements let me get away with something like the VIA EPIA M1000, with it's on-board CPU with no fan and a low power DC power supply.

Thanks for all the advice.

P.S.
Ok, another question. Does the SageTV Client do much writing? Modern consumer (not crazy expensive) solid-state drives, suck at write speeds, besides the OS doing random things like logging and swapping I can't think of a reason for the client to write except for buffering.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by kbyrd

Does the SageTV Client do much writing?

Best way to answer that is probably to download the trial and Perfmon it.

[stanger89]

I don't think client ever writes to the HDD except when saving the properties file. I'm sure it doesn't buffer video to the HDD or anything.

[Dreameriz]

so i have not done this my self and dont know how well it would work but somebody i know took and ran a slim version on windows and sagetv client on a usb 4 gb stick on small pc that was no runing parts. i dont know how he did but that would be the best one of those ones that u could just have display out a usb port and a network port crazy idea

[cslatt]

Originally Posted by kbyrd

I'm looking more for a "what are the technical details" answer. Given that it's just like being at the server, there has to be some sort of remote display thing going on, and I wanted to know if it's something specifically baked into the hauppauge and Sage boxes of if it's possible to build something else low powered, small, quiet that'll do it too.

This post from Narflex seems to indicate that all of the APIs are available to do your own media extender implementation and links off to some documentation. YMMV.

[kbyrd]

Originally Posted by cslatt

This post from Narflex seems to indicate that all of the APIs are available to do your own media extender implementation and links off to some documentation. YMMV.

cslatt for the win. This was exactly what I was looking for.

[reggie14]

My understanding is that Sage hasn't released the necessary information to let other people develop media extenders. Or, at least, they haven't been very helpful about it. emveepee contacted Sage about trying to get the NMT/Popcorn Hour working as an extender. I think he's largely responsible for getting it working with GB-PVR. But, Sage wasn't interested.

I love my HD100, but I do wish they would have teamed up with another vendor when creating the extender. While I have no plans to move away from Sage, vendor lock-in is never a good thing. Plus, had Sage gone with a multipurpose product we probably wouldn't be dealing with supply issues that last months.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by reggie14

My understanding is that Sage hasn't released the necessary information to let other people develop media extenders. Or, at least, they haven't been very helpful about it. emveepee contacted Sage about trying to get the NMT/Popcorn Hour working as an extender. I think he's largely responsible for getting it working with GB-PVR. But, Sage wasn't interested.

I didn't specify that I was coding for the NMT platform. I am trying to make a generic client for any affordable platform. So far that's the mvp, Roku Photobridge and the NMT. The last time I contacted them was when some people where having trouble with Vista I thought another client might be able to help since I was not really seeing significant issues.

Martin

[cslatt]

Originally Posted by kbyrd

cslatt for the win. This was exactly what I was looking for.

It really needs to be put in an easier to find location - I would have given up looking if I hadn't specifically remembered reading about it in the past. The SageTV website has a lot about studio and very little about any other development you might want to do.