Padding Recordings

[can3gxw]

I've seen several threads on this issue, but they're many many months or years old (the ones I could find), so I'm throwing this out again to see if there is anything new...

I currently have padding enabled for 2 minutes, before and after, to make sure that I get the whole show. A lot of times a show will start 30 seconds to a minute early, OR even a minute late, which then means it will end a minute after it is supposed to. This is not a PC clock issue, because I have my HTPC clock syncing every 15 minutes (using Chronos). It is actually the station that runs one extra commercial... has some "off air" for a second or two, whatever...

The problem is that I have one tuner, and when I want to schedule a program on Channel "A" that ends at the same time Channel "B" starts, it throws a conflict and won't record.

As a former Beyond TV user, I really want to make this transition to Sage as painless as possible, and keep the WAF high. This ain't gonna work if the occasional show gets cut off, or won't record at all.

In BTV, you set the padding for whatever you wanted, and it would add that to the beginning and end. If you recorded two shows back to back on different channels (or even the same channel), it would automatically ignore the padding and show "A" would end on time, and show "B" would start on time. Obviously, if you had two or more tuners this wouldn't be a problem, but with one, it "just worked". The only problem would then be that if show "A" ran long, you'd miss the last part of it, but that is obviously unavoidable.

Is there any way to have Sage ignore padding between two shows if they start and end back to back? Right now, I am only using manual recordings because we find what we want and hit "record me"...

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by can3gxw

The only problem would then be that if show "A" ran long, you'd miss the last part of it, but that is obviously unavoidable.

Sure it's avoidable. You could start recording the second show a minute or two late, which is what Sage did automatically last time I had an overlap conflict like this. Personally I find this a better solution than cutting off the end of a program.

Or you could add another tuner and avoid the problem entirely.

[can3gxw]

Thanks for the input, but telling me to "buy another tuner" isn't a solution.

As far as missing the first part of show "B", that's not a real solution either - if I were setting up padding on ALL my manual recordings "just to be sure", then it only stands to reason that if there were two back-to-back recordings, I'd be throwing the dice that show "A" did NOT run long.

Sage should be able to realize that there is a conflict and at least advise you "conflict detected - there will be no padding" or whatever... and then stop "A" at the real time (say, 9:00pm) and start "B" at the real time (9:00pm).

As it stands right now, Sage won't even allow me to record show "B" because it's in conflict with "A".

As I mentioned, I am VERY (!!) surprised that Sage doesn't have this built in already, as it is a feature in BeyondTV that is VERY popular and valuable.

[Zippster]

I am having the same issue, but am going to resolve it by buying additional tuners, currently I only have it with 2 shows back to back on the same channel, so I simply watch the last few seconds of show A on the taping of show B.

[Tiki]

A few comments:

1. I don't think Sage has made any recent changes to the way padding is handled as it relates to conflicts in back to back recordings, so old posts on this topic are still probably valid.
2. Ideally you would want to ensure that you always record every show you want in its entirety, but you can only record one show at a time with one tuner, so there is no perfect solution when you have back to back recordings on different channels. Sage chose one way to handle this which will appeal to some people and Beyond chose a different way which will appeal to others.
3. If there is a small overlap, Sage will generally cut off the beginning of the second show and record it anyway. I think what happens is that Sage will report the conflict and give you the chance to adjust padding or priorities to make sure you don't miss anything. If you ignore the conflict, it will record the higher priority show in its entirety. If the show that came on first happened to be the higher priority, then when it finishes recording the first show and the tuner becomes available, it will probably start recording the second show and just miss the beginning. I'm not sure how much of the second show it can miss before it is considered a partial recording and Sage discards it.
4. While the suggestion to add another tuner isn't what you want to hear, it may be the easiest way to ensure that you don't miss a show.
5. If you have a suggestion for how something could be done better, you can always send it to the Sage developers as a Bug Report. There is no guarantee they will act on it, but at least you can be sure they will see your request (they don't always read every post on these forums).

[sic0048]

If the favorites are on the same channel, then you can change a setting in the Detailed Menu / Customize area to correct this problem.

Remove padding on back to back Favorites

Choose whether back to back Favorites that are on the same channel should have their
overlapping padding removed. If padding is not removed, then such shows cannot be recorded by
a single tuner; if there is only one tuner, overlapping Favorites on the same channel will generate
a conflict, causing one to either be recorded at a later airing or not recorded at all.

I realize in your situation you are asking about when you have back to back recordings on different channels.

According to the manual again..

Start Padding and Stop Padding – You may choose to add padding to the beginning or end of
each recording of a favorite in order to make sure that the entire show is recorded. At times, a
station’s clock differs from SageTV’s clock and a show may start slightly before a recording
begins, or finish slightly after the recording ends. Adding padding time will enable the start and
end of the show to be recorded.
Note: Adding extra time to the beginning or end of recordings may cause the recording to
conflict with other shows which might need to record during the padded time period. Especially
when using only single tuner, be careful that your padding time is not interfering with the
scheduling of other recordings. Be sure to check the Recording Conflicts screen for conflict
information. If a conflict occurs, you will be notified with the conflict icon on the menu
header. You can click on the icon to go directly to the Recording Conflicts screen..
When adjusting the start or stop padding time, pop-up dialogs are displayed. Use the Left
and Right arrow commands, or left-click on the and icons, to adjust the time by a
single minute at a time. Use the Page Left (Ctrl+A) and Page Right (Ctrl+F) commands,
or left-click on the and icons, to adjust the time by 15 minutes at a time. When done,
use the Select command (Enter), or left-click on the time, to accept the changes and close
the dialog. To cancel the changes, use the Options command (Escape or Ctrl+O), or right
click anywhere.

I realize it probably isn't what you wanted to hear, but that seems to be the way Sage handles it.

[CollinR]

Originally Posted by can3gxw

Thanks for the input, but telling me to "buy another tuner" isn't a solution.

No it's the solution.

[GKusnick]

Since this question is posted in the Customizations section, I suppose it's worth mentioning that it would not be too difficult (for someone with the appropriate skills) to create a plugin that could periodically check manual recordings for conflicts and adjust padding according to whatever rule you like. As far as I know, no such plugin has been written yet, which may say something about the demand for such a feature.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by can3gxw

Thanks for the input, but telling me to "buy another tuner" isn't a solution.

Why?

As I mentioned, I am VERY (!!) surprised that Sage doesn't have this built in already, as it is a feature in BeyondTV that is VERY popular and valuable.

It's available if the recordings are on the same channel (btw, you aren't using manual recordings for everything are you?). As for value, I don't see how it's very valuable to drop padding on different channels when it's so cheap/easy to add more tuners.

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by can3gxw

Is there any way to have Sage ignore padding between two shows if they start and end back to back? Right now, I am only using manual recordings because we find what we want and hit "record me"...

As others have said, there is an option to ignore padding on back to back "favorites" on the same channel. I don't think this will work with manual recordings.

If you do everything as a manual recording you also can't take advantage of the other solution Sage employs, and that is to use another airing of the same episode if there is a conflict. If a favorite is being re-played at another time or channel than Sage will just record that one if there's a conflict with another recording at any specific time. Using sage as a digital VCR is wasting most of the reasons it's better than a VCR or even other DVRs.

The only other simple option would be to default to starting the recording a minute or two late (reverse padding) that way you shouldn't have conflicts, but you'll always miss the beginning minute or two of the show (which is better than the last minute or two).

The best solution really is to add another tuner though.

[can3gxw]

Thanks to everyone for your insight and advice. I also received the "short answer" from Sage - it's not possible.

The reason why a second tuner isn't possible right now is because I will also need to hook up a second STB and run a second satellite cable. Sometime later, perhaps I will go that route. Perhaps it is time to re-think my options here and possibly revert back to Beyond TV. This may seem trivial to most of you, but this really IS a big inconvenience and IMO, a serious shortfall to SageTV.

We are not huge recorders right now, and don't want to set everything up as a favourite. As for recording the "regular" shows like Crusoe, First 48, etc., that's fine to set up a favorite. However, if we're just interested in surfing the guide and see "hey - that looks good". Then see something else "Hey - that looks good too". Not set up a favorite and record them all... unless I'm missing the point about "favorites"...

[stanger89]

If you're setting up everything manually can't you just setup the "back to back" recordings without padding?

[can3gxw]

Stanger - that's the problem.

I have the padding set globally to 2 minutes +/-.

When I see a show I want, I hit "record" - then, if I see another show, I hit "record". Because Sage is padding everything with 2 minutes +/-, the second show throws a conflict and will NOT record. It also WILL NOT provide an option at that moment to remove any padding. It simply will NOT allow me to set the second recording at all until I remove the first, or raise the priority. If I raise the priority, the first show will then get dropped. The only workaround is to try and find a future airing... another tuner isn't possible for me at this point only because I am on satellite and need additional lines and a stb. Not gonna happen right now...

I may just try to work with it the way things are and see what kind of WAF it gets... it's just too bad that Sage does not have the option to allow the user to remove the padding if a conflict occurs - or better yet, remove the padding itself.

Here's the response from Sage:

Unfortunately there isn't a way to remove padding on back to back favorites
that are on different channels.

Which isn't quite the same response as my question, since I asked about manual recordings. But if Sage support says so, it must be, right?

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by can3gxw

I have the padding set globally to 2 minutes +/-.

Automatic/global padding is not a default option for SageTV for Manual Recordings. You are either using a custom STV or the hidden extras in the default STV. If you are using the hidden extras, then the dialog where default padding for Manual Recordings is defined has a statement that it can cause scheduling conflicts.

What you are describing is the reason this isn't a default option & you probably should not be using automatic padding like that with a single tuner.

- Andy

[can3gxw]

Opus, that is correct - I am actually using the SageMC STV. That's why I posted this here... I regretfully admit that I did not mention this before now.... I am still trying to get a handle on all this program has to offer!

It is a HUGE change from BeyondTV with its "millions" of settings....

I am just hesitant to remove the padding and then end up missing a minute or so of some show a few days/weeks down the road and have my wife pitch a fit!

* moved from Customizations forum to SageMC forum *

[gveres]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Why?



It's available if the recordings are on the same channel (btw, you aren't using manual recordings for everything are you?). As for value, I don't see how it's very valuable to drop padding on different channels when it's so cheap/easy to add more tuners.

I am in the same boat. I am coming from BTV (well almost a year ago and I still miss BTV in many ways). This is one of those ways.

I got by for years with a single tuner.

I am actually posting to dispel the myth that adding a second tuner is cheap and easy. My tuner cost $750 and I had to ship it to the states to be modified to work with Sage. So purchasing another tuner is NOT an option. It is certainly not a cheap and easy option. (expensive tuner= $200 starchoice HD tuner + $500 R5000 mod + shipping etc)

The way that BTV worked (and I think it is quite a good solution) is that there was a global padding value - I set it to 3 minutes before and 3 minutes after. This was added to all recordings. When there were back to back recordings, it would drop the global padding to make them fit.

There was also a per favourite padding. This padding would not get adjusted. It extended the length of the show as far as the scheduler was concerned. This is like the per favourite padding in Sage today. This was great when you wanted to make sure you captured the end of the F1 race. For my F1 broadcasts I extedned it by 20 minutes on the end.

It is this global padding that Sage doesn't have as far as I can tell. It is there for manual recordings, but not for favourites. And you can't say that the per favourite padding is equivalent, because it is not. The system treats it differently than it would the global padding.

Greg

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by can3gxw

I am just hesitant to remove the padding and then end up missing a minute or so of some show a few days/weeks down the road and have my wife pitch a fit!

So why not remove the default padding and just set it up per recording then? Your favorites can be programed with their own padding per favorite. Then when you want to add a manual recording use the "advanced recording" settings and add your padding there. If there's a conflict with another recording you can either remove the padding on the other recording or just choose to start the second recording two minutes later. You'll miss the first two minutes but that's better than missing the last two.

It may not be elegant but I'd rather choose myself then have the program lop off the very end of a good show just to catch the last commercial before some other program began.