HD200 - multichannel AC3, AAC and HD audio topics

[cat6man]

I'm finding it really difficult to keep track of things when topics are split across extender, media play and beta (and beta contains non HD200 stuff as well)...........so i'd like to start a thread related to hd200 playback of multichannel audio within video

i just moved my hd200 to my main home theater system where it feeds a denon 1909 AVR via hdmi in native resolution mode. the denon strips off the multichannel audio and passes the video to a vp50pro video processor which upconverts to 1080p.

i have the hd200 set to bitstream over hdmi and find the following:

1) with bluray backup files and bitstream over hdmi, i can select the HD audio but i believe the hd200 is passing 5.1AC3 to the denon (i get multichannel sound but no HD indicator on the denon)
is this what i should be getting?

2) i have some test video files that cycle sound around a 5.1 system to identify each speaker fed by the hd200. when i play an mp4 video with AAC audio, my denon says it is receiving stereo, not 5.1, and the speaker identification confirms this.
is AAC over bitstream broken?

3) when i set the audio to PCM over hdmi, i get stereo (not 5.1) for both AC3 and AAC audio.
is PCM over hdmi broken?

4) when HD audio for bluray disks is supported in the future, will it be over bitstream or pcm? if some things work over bitstream and others over pcm, will autoselection be incorporated so that manual selection of pcm/bitstream is not required (a truly bad option)? for example, if HD audio is done via multi-channel PCM and not via bitstream, you should be able to select PCM and have all AC3/AAC/HD options work properly on PCM.

bug report on its way for the AC3/pcm and AAC issues above.

[Taddeusz]

The HD200 does not support converting multi-channel AAC to mulit-channel PCM. This means that multi-channel AAC will always be downconverted to stereo PCM.

PCM audio on the HD200 will always be stereo. It does not support sending multi-channel PCM over HDMI.

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

The HD200 does not support converting multi-channel AAC to mulit-channel PCM. This means that multi-channel AAC will always be downconverted to stereo PCM.

PCM audio on the HD200 will always be stereo. It does not support sending multi-channel PCM over HDMI.

item 1: then it should work bitstreaming AAC, right?

item 2: why will pcm audio on the hd200 with hdmi always be stereo? there is no non-licensing reason i'm aware of that prevents decoding to multi-channel pcm. the best solution would be to pass everthing bitstream for the AVR to handle............but will this work for the BD HD audio formats and the hd200? a road map (not asking for a schedule, but a direction forward) needs to be identified by the developers

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by cat6man

item 1: then it should work bitstreaming AAC, right?

item 2: why will pcm audio on the hd200 with hdmi always be stereo? there is no non-licensing reason i'm aware of that prevents decoding to multi-channel pcm. the best solution would be to pass everthing bitstream for the AVR to handle............but will this work for the BD HD audio formats and the hd200? a road map (not asking for a schedule, but a direction forward) needs to be identified by the developers

The HD200 does not bitstream AAC. I don't think many surround sound receivers, at least inside the US, would support AAC audio as it is not a broadcast standard in the US, AC3 is.

It's simply that the HD200 doesn't currently support multi-channel PCM over HDMI.

If you want to be heard, submit a support request.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cat6man

I'm finding it really difficult to keep track of things when topics are split across extender, media play and beta (and beta contains non HD200 stuff as well)...........so i'd like to start a thread related to hd200 playback of multichannel audio within video

i just moved my hd200 to my main home theater system where it feeds a denon 1909 AVR via hdmi in native resolution mode. the denon strips off the multichannel audio and passes the video to a vp50pro video processor which upconverts to 1080p.

i have the hd200 set to bitstream over hdmi and find the following:

1) with bluray backup files and bitstream over hdmi, i can select the HD audio but i believe the hd200 is passing 5.1AC3 to the denon (i get multichannel sound but no HD indicator on the denon)
is this what i should be getting?

Yes, the extender only supports extracting the core AC3/DTS from "HD" audio streams. Further it won't ever bitstream HBR codecs as it's not HDMI 1.3. We're hoping for HBR decoding in the HD200 though at some point (Jeff said they're "looking" at it).

2) i have some test video files that cycle sound around a 5.1 system to identify each speaker fed by the hd200. when i play an mp4 video with AAC audio, my denon says it is receiving stereo, not 5.1, and the speaker identification confirms this.
is AAC over bitstream broken?

AAC can't be bitstreamed. It's not a supported format (your Denon wouldn't understand it). And the HD200 only does S/PDIF-over-HDMI at this point.

3) when i set the audio to PCM over hdmi, i get stereo (not 5.1) for both AC3 and AAC audio.
is PCM over hdmi broken?

It is what it is at the moment, S/PDIF-over-HDMI.

4) when HD audio for bluray disks is supported in the future, will it be over bitstream or pcm?

No, that requires HDMI 1.3, which the HD200 does not have.

if some things work over bitstream and others over pcm, will autoselection be incorporated so that manual selection of pcm/bitstream is not required (a truly bad option)?

If that happens, one possibility is that the HD200 will support decoding everything so you just set it to PCM and you'll get whatever the format is, 5.1 or whatever, from any soundtrack.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

PCM audio on the HD200 will always be stereo. It does not support sending multi-channel PCM over HDMI.

I wouldn't go that far, that's all that's implemented at the moment, but I think the HD200 hardware is capable of multichannel PCM (unlike the HD100).

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I wouldn't go that far, that's all that's implemented at the moment, but I think the HD200 hardware is capable of multichannel PCM (unlike the HD100).

I should have said "doesn't currently support".

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yes, the extender only supports extracting the core AC3/DTS from "HD" audio streams. Further it won't ever bitstream HBR codecs as it's not HDMI 1.3. We're hoping for HBR decoding in the HD200 though at some point (Jeff said they're "looking" at it).


AAC can't be bitstreamed. It's not a supported format (your Denon wouldn't understand it). And the HD200 only does S/PDIF-over-HDMI at this point.


It is what it is at the moment, S/PDIF-over-HDMI.

then we have to hope that HBR decoding works out or wait for the HD300 with hdmi1.3

i understand that AAC can't be bitstreamed to most non-japanese market receivers (it is more common there) but s/pdif over hdmi does not preclude AC3 over hdmi for multi-channel pcm in the future...........and since HBR can only be done for multi-channel pcm over hdmi1.2, it seems that the long term solution must be multi-channel pcm for AC3 over hdmi as well.........and if you're going the multi-channel pcm route, then you might as well convert AAC as well

this really is a huge hole in the current feature set that needs to be resolved..........i can't recommend the hd200 to friends if i can't tell them that HBR for BD will definitely be there as well as multi-channel AC3..........and manually switching between bitstream and pcm is not a viable solution

i understand this is a beta and things are coming at a good clip, but a roadmap to a viable end point for audio is needed.........if HBR is not for some reason possible, this is a dead end until they add hdmi1.3 h/w in a next rev hdx00, so we assume HBR will be there for now

i can submit a support ticket but have already submitted a bug report

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cat6man

then we have to hope that HBR decoding works out or wait for the HD300 with hdmi1.3

i understand that AAC can't be bitstreamed to most non-japanese market receivers (it is more common there) but s/pdif over hdmi does not preclude AC3 over hdmi for multi-channel pcm in the future...........

I'm not sure what you're getting at. You asking for AC3 encoding and output over HDMI? No that's not impossible, but that's harder than just doing PCM.

and since HBR can only be done for multi-channel pcm over hdmi1.2, it seems that the long term solution must be multi-channel pcm for AC3 over hdmi as well.........and if you're going the multi-channel pcm route, then you might as well convert AAC as well

this really is a huge hole in the current feature set that needs to be resolved..........i can't recommend the hd200 to friends if i can't tell them that HBR for BD will definitely be there as well as multi-channel AC3..........and manually switching between bitstream and pcm is not a viable solution

Multichannel AC3 is there today, I'm rather lost by your comments about that.

i understand this is a beta and things are coming at a good clip, but a roadmap to a viable end point for audio is needed.........

Sage knows better than to release roadmaps.

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Multichannel AC3 is there today, I'm rather lost by your comments about that.

from my testing, this was only true for bitstream...........when set to pcm i only got stereo.

the problem is, if HBR can only be provided via pcm, then AC3 must also work over pcm so that both work on the same setting, right?
i'm really pointing to what needs to be done to have a valid roadmap to provide hdmi audio support without the user having to manually change between bitstream and pcm on a show by show basis

edit: AAC is a minor issue compared to the above, so i'll drop that for now

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cat6man

from my testing, this was only true for bitstream...........when set to pcm i only got stereo.

the problem is, if HBR can only be provided via pcm, then AC3 must also work over pcm so that both work on the same setting, right?

OK, I gotcha. I'll put it this way. The extender can decode 5.1 AC3 today (with downmix), so the limitation isn't in the decoding, it's in the "driver" (for lack of a better term) routing the audio over HDMI. So if HBR decoding is added, there's no reason to think AC3 and DTS would not work the same way.

I seriously doubt we'll see TrueHD/DTS-HD MA decoding and not DD, DTS, and AAC.

[cat6man]

exactly.........and my point was that pcm for ac3 is essential since HD audio can only be done with multi-channel pcm (and it isn't there today).....hence the only valid roadmap that hangs together, in my opinion, is to have everything work multi-channel pcm with the hdmi setting at pcm........nothing else covers all the necessary audio modes with hdmi1.2 hardware

if someone sees an alternate path that works, please point it out.
if not, i have to assume the roadmap for audio must go through multi-channel pcm

i understand we're in beta and new capabilities are being created and i'm quite impressed with both the quality and quantity of the features that have come out since december (which isn't that far back........) but the nature of the eventual audio solution is worth exploring to make sure we (and they) understand the tradeoffs involved

cheers

background note: i have owned a hd200 for almost an entire 1/2 month now, which makes me relatively new to the hd200 and sage, but i am on my 6th generation of network media player (mediaMVP, linkplayer2, zensonic z500, ziova cs615, hd200) so i have a bit of experience putting these puppies through their paces.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cat6man

exactly.........and my point was that pcm for ac3 is essential since HD audio can only be done with multi-channel pcm (and it isn't there today).....hence the only valid roadmap that hangs together, in my opinion, is to have everything work multi-channel pcm with the hdmi setting at pcm........nothing else covers all the necessary audio modes with hdmi1.2 hardware

And you seem to be making a huge deal out of something that's only theoretically (and probably unlikely to be) a problem. Sage isn't stupid and they appear to have made a concious decision not to go HDMI 1.3, so I can only assume they've thought about it.

[cat6man]

because it is a huge deal for some of us looking for a stand alone media player that supports BD playback...........it is the raison d'etre for picking the hd200 media player versus one of the dozens of others out there in the marketplace

end of rant: i think my point has been made by now

[cncb]

Originally Posted by cat6man

exactly.........and my point was that pcm for ac3 is essential since HD audio can only be done with multi-channel pcm (and it isn't there today).....hence the only valid roadmap that hangs together, in my opinion, is to have everything work multi-channel pcm with the hdmi setting at pcm........nothing else covers all the necessary audio modes with hdmi1.2 hardware

I don't see why this has to be the case. It could just bitstream standard DD and DTS and send multi-channel PCM for HD audio. My Blu-ray player can do this.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cat6man

because it is a huge deal for some of us looking for a stand alone media player that supports BD playback...........

So how about waiting until there's multichannel PCM at all rather than raising a fuss over a theoretical problem.

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by cncb

I don't see why this has to be the case. It could just bitstream standard DD and DTS and send multi-channel PCM for HD audio. My Blu-ray player can do this.

agreed.......that would also be fine, but would require a new mode of hybrid bitstream/pcm mode.........or you select bitstream and when bitstream is not feasible, it would send pcm for HD.........the key is it shouldn't require going into setup

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by stanger89

So how about waiting until there's multichannel PCM at all rather than raising a fuss over a theoretical problem.

because i am trying to define what i think is a viable solution...i'll stop explaining it if you stop questioning my motives, ok?

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by cat6man

agreed.......that would also be fine, but would require a new mode of hybrid bitstream/pcm mode.........or you select bitstream and when bitstream is not feasible, it would send pcm for HD.........the key is it shouldn't require going into setup

That's actually how current bitstream mode works. Anything that is not AC3 or DTS gets decoded to PCM. It's just that the HD200 cannot currently decode to multi-channel PCM and instead goes to stereo, only that it also can't currently decode "high definition" audio.

[stanger89]

Likewise if you set it to PCM it decodes everything to PCM and outputs it to the maximum extent possible (which is stereo today). Only DTS is unsupported in that mode, but if we get DTS-HD MA decoding, I'd expect DTS decoding to come along for the ride.