Status of the HTPC

[wolfpackmars2]

I have finally purchased the parts to build a new sage based HTPC.

However, as I now wait for the parts to arrive, I want to know what people's thoughts are about the State of the HTPC. Over the last year, PCAlchemy has shuttered and the HTPC forums haven't seen a new post since February. Other HTPC forums have disappeared completely.

Thankfully, Sage seems to be active and going strong, but it seems to me that development and progress in the HTPC overall has slowed or stalled.

Am I way off base here?

[GKusnick]

Personally I always felt that "HTPC" was a fairly meaningless term. If you want PVR software or TV tuners or a shiny chrome case for your PC, fine; buy them. But none of those things will magically transform your living room into a home theater, which to me means a room custom-designed from the studs out for media viewing, not an assemblage of media-oriented PC hardware and software sitting in a corner of your rec room.

So I guess my interpretation is that if there appears to be stagnation or decline in the HTPC niche market, all that means is that PC-based media management has gone mainstream and the demographic has shifted so that the majority of people buying those products don't care about the rather nebulous difference between "HTPCs" and regular PCs with various peripherals attached.

I realize, though, that I'm probably in a minority with this opinion.

[SWKerr]

I think PCAlchemy's problem was that the kind of parts they were selling were now more common on mainstream outlets putting margin pressure on their margins. Used to be you could not find that stuff very easily.

I think there are a lot more users out there getting content online now via a computer they just don't call it an HTPC. Eventually these people are going to start wanting more from the experience and will start looking into things like Extenders and HTPC solutions.

As for the HTPC, I think people are much more interested in getting the functionality of the HTPC but there are a lot more options today that deliver that functionality to the TV that are not called HTPC. Mainstream users are probably going to the extender model for the simplicity of setup but the HTPC offers a lot more functionality than an Extender.

You are beginning to see a lot of devices that can get content on the TV. Some just get content off the internet but most need some kind of access to a PC via a network. To me these back end PCs deliver HTPC functionality but we just don't call them that.

Long term I think you will see a pool of basic users that will be very happy with these custom extender solutions but there will also be a group that will want more from them and will end up building an HTPC. I would guess the overall HTPC market will grow but that the vast majority of users will be Extender users long term.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Personally I always felt that "HTPC" was a fairly meaningless term. If you want PVR software or TV tuners or a shiny chrome case for your PC, fine; buy them. But none of those things will magically transform your living room into a home theater, which to me means a room custom-designed from the studs out for media viewing, not an assemblage of media-oriented PC hardware and software sitting in a corner of your rec room.

I disagree, or at least I think HTPC used to be a meaningful term. The term came about from people (like me at the time) who wanted basically a Home Theater component (ala DVD player, DVR, etc), ie sleek case that blends in, interface that's usable with a remote, but for cost or availability reasons, decided to use PC components to build that.

The whole point of an "HTPC" was to use PC components (often/usually in a special case) to achieve CE functionality in one's "HT". ie the PC components were a means to and end. They were there to perform scaling and DVD playback, etc, stuff that either couldn't be done with CE components or was very expensive.

Lately, the term "HTPC" is being thrown at any PC that's used for anything related to media or a non-PC-monitor display. I think the meaning of the term HTPC is basically gone now.

Further it seems today the "thing" is to have a PC connected to a TV for PC stuff. Kind of the opposite of what us HTPC "pioneers" were doing. We sought to hide the fact that it was a PC we were using, today it's almost a badge of honor to have a PC hooked up.

But I digress.

Originally Posted by wolfpackmars2

I have finally purchased the parts to build a new sage based HTPC.

However, as I now wait for the parts to arrive, I want to know what people's thoughts are about the State of the HTPC. Over the last year, PCAlchemy has shuttered and the HTPC forums haven't seen a new post since February. Other HTPC forums have disappeared completely.

AVScience seems as busy as ever.

[Brent]

I think the term HTPC is less descriptive then it used to be now with CE extender/players, placeshifting, Sonos type stuff etc. That's one reason MS used "Media Center." I haven't figured out a really good term - I kind of like Media Network or Media System, but no alternative to the HTPC name has really taken off.

I think HTPC's (or whatever we want to call them) are just as strong as they used to be. The problem is the market hasn't grown much from the early days so it's still mostly enthusiasts. I see Microsoft pushing MediaCenter to custom installers & ceding the consumer business to nothing more than the "TV on your PC" concept. Snapstream has mostly given up on the consumer business. Apple has dabbled, but not really tried yet. So the market is left with SageTV & Microsoft along with a bunch of fairly impressive freeware options.

I don't think development of HTPC's has slowed or stopped. The media companies have done more damage to the growth than anything, but SageTV and Microsoft seem to still be pluging away at it in their own ways. The SageTV forums & Microsoft's GreenButton communities are quite strong still.

[stuckless]

I wonder if we are seeing a decrease in the "HTPC" market because of the switch to HD and because many Sat/Cable providers are providing their own "easy to use" PVR solutions.

When everything was SD, I used a simple STB PVR for recordings for and a $50 modded Xbox running XBMC for my media center. I was happy enough using 2 boxes for 2 different needs, but when I switched my setup to HD, then immdiately my Xbox was useless, so I invested into a SageTV HD100 and went the sage route. My investment into sage (including sage license, HDPVR, etc) is extensive compared to my what I had when everything was SD.

The media instustry is doing their best to kill homebrew pvr solutions in favour of locked down STB with limited functionality that they control. Probably, if they ever close the "analog hole", I will be forced to abandon the hope of a centralized PVR solution, although, I'll always have a centralized media center.

[Skirge01]

Sometimes, it's not worth the effort when you can get something from the TV provider. Most people will be satisfied enough with whatever they get, that they'll never even consider going to an HTPC due to all the work involved.

If "big content" ever does manage to close the analog hole and there's no workaround, that'll be when I cancel my satellite service and move over to less "legitimate" ways, try out Netflix for the first time, or start buying more TV series box sets. Sadly, I think the elimination of the analog hole would also put Sage out of business.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

Sadly, I think the elimination of the analog hole would also put Sage out of business.

So, you think the majority of Sage users are using the HDPVR? I would guess that most are using OTA or QAM.

[Skirge01]

Having only started using OTA in the past couple of months and having never used QAM, when I wrote that, these didn't really seem like major reasons to use Sage. But, now that you point it out and I think about it, Sage has been around a helluva lot longer than the HD-PVR, so clearly there are plenty of people who found Sage useful before the HD-PVR existed. With the investment I've made in Sage, to only get OTA would be a complete waste of time, money, and energy. There simply isn't enough to watch on the OTA channels to warrant the entire setup. But, that's just my opinion.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

There simply isn't enough to watch on the OTA channels to warrant the entire setup. But, that's just my opinion.

Well, I have the opposite opinion. I only ever watched a couple "cable" channels and I never understood why I had to pay for channels with commercials .

[babgvant]

It used to be hard to research/find/buy the components that you needed to build a HTPC. Every modern video card has dedicated HW for decoding video and 7.1 channel audio outputs. You have more than 3 options for every size of case (ITX, micro-ATX, ATX) and every budget. More tuner choices than I can track, available at mainstream PC component vendors (I bought my first tuner off of ebay because there wasn't anywhere to buy one retail in the US)

We have choice in software; Media Portal, MC, Sage, etc. Free and OSS applications/components for playback (ffdshow, ac3filter, MPC-HC). And lets not forget AnyDVD HD...

And the perception of the HTPC is also much better; i.e. Engadget is doing how to build a HTPC guides. While that's not NYT mainstream, it's not HTPCNews either.

[wolfpackmars2]

Originally Posted by Brent

I think HTPC's (or whatever we want to call them) are just as strong as they used to be. The problem is the market hasn't grown much from the early days so it's still mostly enthusiasts. I see Microsoft pushing MediaCenter to custom installers & ceding the consumer business to nothing more than the "TV on your PC" concept. Snapstream has mostly given up on the consumer business. Apple has dabbled, but not really tried yet. So the market is left with SageTV & Microsoft along with a bunch of fairly impressive freeware options.

Originally Posted by stuckless

The media instustry is doing their best to kill homebrew pvr solutions in favour of locked down STB with limited functionality that they control. Probably, if they ever close the "analog hole", I will be forced to abandon the hope of a centralized PVR solution, although, I'll always have a centralized media center.

Originally Posted by Skirge01

If "big content" ever does manage to close the analog hole and there's no workaround, that'll be when I cancel my satellite service and move over to less "legitimate" ways... Sadly, I think the elimination of the analog hole would also put Sage out of business.

These pretty much are my concerns with the purpose-built PVR systems. My Sage box died about 16 months ago and at the time I was in the middle of changing jobs and was about to move, so I just boxed the system up to deal with it later. My new house had On-Demand and I got a free DVR from ComCast (free for a short time). My wife and I never liked the box, so in January I finally got around to looking toward replacing the Sage Box. I was happy to see that HD had made progress with the Hauppauge 1600 and similar cards, but was discouraged to find out that there was little support for the cards, and the future was uncertain. I was basically frustrated that I couldn't figure out what direction I wanted to take my next Sage box, so I shelved the project again.

Now, here we are 8 months later and I have just purchased the parts to build SageBox 3.0. I have opted for midline parts and I will be using my old TV tuners and some other parts from SageBox 2.0. I have not committed to HD because 1) I do not have a HD TV in my living room and 2) The future of HD is still uncertain, as far as I can tell.

Some posts report that transmits all their digital signals "in the clear" but will someday soon scramble these signals. With the current hardware, including the HDHR, as far as I can tell, they are not intended to work with a STB for HD content. So, if I were to jump to HD, I run the very real risk that in the near future my hardware would only be good for OTA.

Originally Posted by Skirge01

With the investment I've made in Sage, to only get OTA would be a complete waste of time, money, and energy. There simply isn't enough to watch on the OTA channels to warrant the entire setup.

My sentiments exactly! Even with cannabalizing SageBox 2.0 and trying to purchase the minimum of hardware that will survive a few upgrades, SageBox 3.0 is still costing me over $650! At this point I've already written off my ~$3,000 investment I've already made on previous PVR R&D and Design. And now it seems that the media companies have opened up with both barrels against the homebrew PVR, even going as far as to disable the serial ports on their STBs.

However, the DVR setup offered by is so sorry that it doesn't even remember which episodes I have watched of my shows. How useless is this?!?! There are still a lot of CSI's that I haven't seen, yet because every Monday is CSI Marathon day, I have to go through and delete 8 hours of CSI every week, paying attention to the descriptions and trying to remember if I have seen each episode or not. I can't add more than 6 favorites lest the box fill itself up every night. I think recently they have added TIVO service... which means I can double my monthly DVR lease $$ to get a SLIGHTLY better DVR.

Perhaps when there is a HD hardware MPEG encoder board that can accept HDMI input, there will be a foreseeable future for the homebrew PVR. However, I think by design, there will never be an HDMI encoder...

I believe the Big Medias are wary of having another Blackbox problem on their hands similar to the early days of cable. That's fine, if they want to require an STB to watch cable is one thing.. but then to limit the functionality of those STBs is a whole different matter.

What ever became of the cablecard? I thought this was supposed to solve our problems and allow third party access to the Cable network?