Come Back to SageTV - Open Source in "Near" Future

[pjpjpjpj]

And not to beat a dead horse about the extender thing, but I mentioned to my wife this morning about Narflex's post that actually gives some hope to the idea that the extenders could be revived, and she actually got excited (if you knew my wife and her normal reaction to anything tech-related, that would impress you ), and rattled off a list of names of her friends whom she said would definitely be interested is getting into Sage if the software is back alive and extenders are available. I guess she's had lots of people over for kids' playdates (while I'm at work during the day) and had the TV on and they've all said they wanted it, but she had to tell them "sorry, Google bought it, it's not available." These aren't tech-savvy people, either, they are soccer moms.

I still say there has been a massive increase in knowledge/acceptance of media devices, streaming gadgets, home networking, and even home media servers (to dumb it down, a "24/7 running computer somewhere in the house that holds your media") within the general public in the three years since Sage went dormant. Three years ago, I would show people my home Sage system and almost all of them had the opinion, "that looks cool but it's too complicated for my lack of computer knowledge". Truth is, it wasn't, but they were just scared to jump out of the safe cocoon of paying Time-Warner a big chunk of money every month and getting what they always had before. In the last three years, thanks to netflix, smart TVs, Rokus, FireTVs, AppleTVs, etc., those people are more comfortable with the idea of having gadgets and networked devices in their homes. They've seen that they can do it and it's not rocket science, and makes their lives better. So, I'm tellin' ya, Sage could be about to take off.

[xred]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

=In the last three years, thanks to netflix, smart TVs, Rokus, FireTVs, AppleTVs, etc., those people are more comfortable with the idea of having gadgets and networked devices in their homes. They've seen that they can do it and it's not rocket science, and makes their lives better. So, I'm tellin' ya, Sage could be about to take off.

This is very true. I work in the IPTV / Digital TV space and the adoption rate and acceptance for cord cutting and viewing media on other platforms is accelerating. If I put on the fantasy "SageTV Product Manager" hat and looked beyond the specific features (64 bit Java, mutiplex recording etc.) the goals to extend and grow the ecosystem would be;

1. A plug and play home server. I believe Jeff and the Sage team had this as a stated goal prior to the Google acquisition and it still applies. The knowledge required to install and build the server is the single biggest barrier to entry. Being able to buy a Sage Server off the shelf and just set it up via an abbreviated Web UI version of the install wizard would be key.

2. Free Updated software clients aimed at "Generation Y" 18 to 34 year olds. Android, iOS, Roku would be top 3 priorities with the Android and iOS clients having support for Mobile / Tablet / Set Top UI variants. Chromecast support is critical here.

3. A next gen "HD400" successor supporting 4K / 3D and HDR (if a spec gets finalized) would be critical to support the market created by the plug and play server and videophiles that want a quality home theatre experience. This is _completely_ compatible with having Android STB support mentioned above as you're essentially targeting a different market segment (aka married 34+ with money and WAF to deal with). WayneB's find of the Cloud Media VTEN means that likely all thats required is a couple of sample boxes to code against and a kickstarter campaign to fund the integration work (there is likely proprietary code work required for the Sigma APIs, but thats just a guess).

4. Long term and assuming broadband ISP support is there it would be interesting to see if the server could be virtualized entirely hosted in the cloud. Certainly Google and Amazon would be candidates to host but I could see a dedicated industry similar to the current Seedbox services pop up to support this if its viable.

[jreichen]

Originally Posted by nycjoe

Is it difficult to integrate sagetv with languages other than java? I work with developers in a similar space, and Java is a 4 letter word. Python and go are usually preferred.

Java is one of many languages that run on the JVM so you have a lot of choices. There is a Python implementation called Jython, and if you google 'go jvm' it turns up a couple projects to implement Go on the JVM.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by jchiso

There's a big difference between "subpar" and "best". HDMI video output and playback on a Pi (Model B) is comparable to that of the HD-300. It's a bit unfair to characterize the HD-300, -200, or -100 as "subpar" devices.

Unless you consider that "subpar" actually means "good" ...

I think valnar was talking about the other way, HDxxx are good/"best", while something like an rPi is "subpar".

I'm with valnar on that, I've been running XBMC (OpenELEC) on Intel GPU hardware for a while, and it's video output is can really only be considered "good" if the source is 1080p and no video processing has to be done. If you drop to anything else, 1080i, or especially difficult 480i, then it is most definitely "subpar".

I would love to see some "renewed" (not for Sage but for devices in general) support for native/"Source Direct" output.

[7up]

Originally Posted by xred

3. A next gen "HD400" successor supporting 4K / 3D and HDR (if a spec gets finalized) would be critical to support the market created by the plug and play server and videophiles that want a quality home theatre experience. This is _completely_ compatible with having Android STB support mentioned above as you're essentially targeting a different market segment (aka married 34+ with money and WAF to deal with). WayneB's find of the Cloud Media VTEN means that likely all thats required is a couple of sample boxes to code against and a kickstarter campaign to fund the integration work (there is likely proprietary code work required for the Sigma APIs, but thats just a guess).

+1

[emveepee]

I'm really impressed by the number of new features in the open source version of SageTV perhaps this is all being created by some new software development process that I haven't heard of.

I don't think think the world needs yet another Kodi backend, but for some reason that seems to be a pretty highly anticipated feature. Trouble is that could happen today without too much effort but no one really has wanted to own it, a failed Kickstarter project aside. I'd have done it myself but I find some of the "anti-anything but Sage fanboys" here hard to take. I figure that is only a few weekends of work too but that is probably

If that relatively simple feature couldn't have been added over the last couple of years why does anyone expect that open source alone will cause the future of SageTV to be so bright? I'll post a separate post about extenders since I can give some incite into that but thus far in the thread I am not as optimistic as many of the users here. It's too bad the name MythTV has already been taken.

I think there is a good analogy from history when Meedio a commercial app was purchased by Yahoo! to become potentially Yahoo! TV. That failed and the MeedioOS open source initiative appeared to be the solution. It actually still exists for the diehards probably some of them may still think it is the best.

Martin

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I think valnar was talking about the other way, HDxxx are good/"best", while something like an rPi is "subpar".

I'm with valnar on that, I've been running XBMC (OpenELEC) on Intel GPU hardware for a while, and it's video output is can really only be considered "good" if the source is 1080p and no video processing has to be done ...

But these pronouncements are not true. I have three HD-300s, 2 HD-200s, and a number of other platforms on which I've run Kodi/XBMC. The HDMI video output of the Pi is every bit as capable as the SageTV extenders for OTA HD (720p and 1080i), h.264 1080p and 720p , and 480i DVD rips.

They may not be capable of playing 4K, or other processor-intensive formats, but to say their performance is inferior to the HD-300 is misleading ...

[benjamintm]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I think there is a good analogy from history when Meedio a commercial app was purchased by Yahoo! to become potentially Yahoo! TV. That failed and the MeedioOS open source initiative appeared to be the solution. It actually still exists for the diehards probably some of them may still think it is the best.

Meedio never had a proper DVR or extenders. It can play your existing media, much like Kodi (and a dozen other similar projects) originally did. There was no differentiation. Kodi has added DVR support, but it requires separate software, SageTV does not.

One thing to note. A lot of what you hear people suggesting for the open-source version are just that, suggestions. Nothing is planned, nothing is ready to be released. A lot of original community has moved on. Those that are still around, like myself, are still regular users of SageTV and hope that by open sourcing it, this will allow us to continue to have it available. We have used a discontinued product for almost 5 years because we have yet to find something better (or to stubborn to move on). Now that SageTV is going open source, it gives us hope and the ability to add things we'd like to see.

That said, after SageTV is open source a core group of developers come together to add features (aka the suggestions throughout this thread) to the "official" SageTV release. Without that, you risk the possibility of stagnation.

Ben

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by benjamintm

Meedio never had a proper DVR or extenders.

I never actually used it I am going back on memory http://www.byopvr.com/meedio-update-...iotv-progress/ I think the comparison is still valid.

Martin

[SHS]

Originally Posted by jchiso

But these pronouncements are not true. I have three HD-300s, 2 HD-200s, and a number of other platforms on which I've run Kodi/XBMC. The HDMI video output of the Pi is every bit as capable as the SageTV extenders for OTA HD (720p and 1080i), h.264 1080p and 720p , and 480i DVD rips.

They may not be capable of playing 4K, or other processor-intensive formats, but to say their performance is inferior to the HD-300 is misleading ...

I think it not question as to weather not it is inferior to the HD-300 as is the audio side of thing with HDMI that a real problem which is a pain butt so it work fine with stereo but when come to deal with DD5.1 and other that where things seem go wrong where HD-300 is spot on ever time so got love HDCP if wasn't that carp I think we have a lot less problem.
More so when dealing with Blu-ray RIP's with embedded cinavia protection audio carp that some players that keep the PS3 and other from working.

[benjamintm]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I never actually used it I am going back on memory http://www.byopvr.com/meedio-update-...iotv-progress/ I think the comparison is still valid.

Martin

There is the MeediosPVR plugin, but that connects to an ARGUS TV server, which actually handles the the DVR functionality. It's not a native functionality as it is in SageTV.

Meedios isn't a bad platform, but it's more like Kodi then SageTV. SageTV is better compared to MCE and MythTV.

Again, what the community does after SageTV is open sourced will be the defining factor in SageTVs future.

Ben

[SHS]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I never actually used it I am going back on memory http://www.byopvr.com/meedio-update-...iotv-progress/ I think the comparison is still valid.

Martin

Oh I recall Meedio TV I still got a copy of it but endup be come Yahoo TV. Let not for get some other oldies but goodies like BeyondTV, ChrisTV, CTpvr, Freevo, JRiver Media Center, ShowShifter, TVedia, WinDVR

[valnar]

Originally Posted by jchiso

But these pronouncements are not true. I have three HD-300s, 2 HD-200s, and a number of other platforms on which I've run Kodi/XBMC. The HDMI video output of the Pi is every bit as capable as the SageTV extenders for OTA HD (720p and 1080i), h.264 1080p and 720p , and 480i DVD rips.

We're going to have to agree to disagree (strongly disagree actually). The scaling and deinterlacing of most computers (from Pi's to PC's) is not as good.

I know the world wants to move to Kodi/XBMC as a front end for everything, but I think that is a bad idea. What separates Sage from that is NOT being reliant on XBMC. This is why, as we all can agree, why the WAF of Sage was head & shoulders above the alternatives. It would be a shame to reduce Sage to yet another XBMC back end.

On a related subject, the main reason why a company like Sage/Frey could adopt a brand new extender based on a Sigma Designs chip was because they were a real company. They could place orders and charge us. I regret that may not be possible with an OS product. eg. The only reason PLEX (which I love..far more than Kodi) is gaining traction in the Roku's, Playstations and TV's of the world is because it also is a commercial venture. If the future of Sage is nothing more than a Kodi backend PVR, it will become a shadow of its former self (IMO).

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by SHS

I think it not question as to weather not it is inferior to the HD-300 as is the audio side of thing with HDMI that a real problem which is a pain butt so it work fine with stereo but when come to deal with DD5.1 and other that where things seem go wrong where HD-300 is spot on ever time so got love HDCP if wasn't that carp I think we have a lot less problem ...

I don't know what you're trying to say here, but I don't understand your points about multi-channel audio. The Pi has no problems with 5.1 via AC3 or DTS. My points of reference are (HD)TV- and DVD-grade sources. Passthrough implementation with Kodi is simple and straightforward: much easier than accomplishing the same with SageTV ...

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by valnar

We're going to have to agree to disagree (strongly disagree actually). The scaling and deinterlacing of most computers (from Pi's to PC's) is not as good.

I know the world wants to move to Kodi/XBMC as a front end for everything, but I think that is a bad idea. What separates Sage from that is NOT being reliant on XBMC ...

This is not what I've stated at any point. I am not debating the TV functionality of Kodi versus SageTV. I was talking about a SageTV distribution for Pi. My point was that the hardware of the Pi is as capable as an HD-300 (HD-100, or HD-200) as a playback device.

I may be missing something here, but where is the content that plays on an HD-300 that won't play on a Pi?

[valnar]

Originally Posted by jchiso

This is not what I've stated at any point. I am not debating the TV functionality of Kodi versus SageTV. I was talking about a SageTV distribution for Pi. My point was that the hardware of the Pi is as capable as an HD-300 (HD-100, or HD-200) as a playback device.

I may be missing something here, but where is the content that plays on an HD-300 that won't play on a Pi?

Playability is not the concern. Do you not feel there is a difference in quality between a Toshiba and an Oppo?

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by valnar

Playability is not the concern. Do you not feel there is a difference in quality between a Toshiba and an Oppo?

Toshiba what? I don't play high (>1080p) content. I'm not talking about the output of specialty devices. I am playing the same files on an HD-300 and a Pi without any noticeable difference. I'm watching live hockey and basketball; full-motion, 30 fps video.

I'm not asking to set the world on fire. I'm just talking about capturing and playing back TV programming. I do not have any of the problems and issues with the quality of the HD-300 that others here seem to. I guess that's why many people left, but I never have ...

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by jchiso

I may be missing something here, but where is the content that plays on an HD-300 that won't play on a Pi?

The Raspberry Pi can't play Blu-ray bitrate video.

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

The Raspberry Pi can't play Blu-ray bitrate video.

I'm sure you mean it cannot play maximum-bitrate Blu-Ray video. Can an HD-300? Where does the HD-300 max out? I'm not being flippant, I don't have any Blu-Ray rips. My sources for hi-res test material are sites like this ...

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by jchiso

I'm sure you mean it cannot play maximum-bitrate Blu-Ray video. Can an HD-300? Where does the HD-300 max out? I'm not being flippant, I don't have any Blu-Ray rips. My sources for hi-res test material are sites like this ...

I'm just going by the specs. For H.264 video the Pi and HD100 are good to Advanced Profile Level 4.0 whereas the HD200 and HD300 are good to Advanced Profile Level 4.1. Not a huge difference but enough of one.