Future of recording HDTV

[eobiont]

My local cable company recently began setting the copy protection bit on broadcast television. This means that I can no longer watch the local FOX or CBS broadcasts in HD via Sage. I get HDTV via cable STB attached with i1394 (firewire). In the past, I had been unable to view HBO HD etc, but removing the broadcast channels is the final straw.

From what I see, there are three options available to me.

1. Get a Tivo HD. I used to have a Tivo before switching to Sage and I liked it well enough. The only thing I'm missing from Tivo is ShowAnalyser. If the commercials skipped themselves, I'd be back to Tivo. Cost for 3 years with box is $744 ($300box + $300 subscription + $36 for a cablecard for 3 years)

2. Get a new cablecard ready PC. My computer is nearing 4 years old and probably should be replaced soon. When I figure a Tivo will cost $600 for three years, the ~$900 HP with cablecard starts to look OK. I'd probably go with this option if I had a better idea of what I could and could not do with the programs that are captured. Assuming every channel I receive from my cable company is set to "copy once," what can I expect from a Windows Vista media center PC. Can third party applications like show analyzer still access these programs and make commercial skip lists? I get that I won't be able to down convert anything to my iPod like I can now with sage. Is there more hidden misery here?

3. Ship my STB to nextcomwireless. Price for three years of this solution is $924. $600 conversion fee + $9/month for STB. This option has the greatest rewards. I can continue to use Sage. I can continue to downconvert programs to my iPod. I can continue to detect and skip commercials. Downsides to this is that vs Tivo, this is a single HD channel recording. This is the most costly plan, and leaves me with a 4 year old computer. It is also the only plan that allows me to continue to use Sage. There is a 50% chance I think that at some point the cable company will disable HD channels on non-HD STBs. Then I'd have to purchase one of the options above. The accountant in me wants to add $300 to this option to account for the potential risk.


In the end, I'll probably switch to Tivo HD. It has all the same restrictions that Vista MC has without the hassles of trying to watch TV on a computer. Also, over a three year period, it is the least expensive option and the only one that would allow me to record two HD channels at once. I will miss placeshifter and show analyser. I will not miss directX decoder conflicts.

What are your thoughts?

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by eobiont

My local cable company recently began setting the copy protection bit on broadcast television. This means that I can no longer watch the local FOX or CBS broadcasts in HD via Sage. I get HDTV via cable STB attached with i1394 (firewire). In the past, I had been unable to view HBO HD etc, but removing the broadcast channels is the final straw.

I had no idea they could legally 5C your locals. I would give your CS number a call. That really sucks...

what can I expect from a Windows Vista media center PC. Can third party applications like show analyzer still access these programs and make commercial skip lists? I get that I won't be able to down convert anything to my iPod like I can now with sage. Is there more hidden misery here?

My understanding is that you WILL NOT be able to open those recorded files in anything other than VMCE (Vista media center edition). Which means exactly what it sounds like - no SA, no transcoding, no fun at all...

3. Ship my STB to nextcomwireless. Price for three years of this solution is $924.

I'm not familiar with this solution, but it sounds interesting. If you're looking at spending that kind of money, why not look at a DirecTV solution like the R5000, people swear by those things, and DTV's HD lineup looks better than anyone's right now.

In the end, I'll probably switch to Tivo HD.

Definitely the easiest option. It's hard to argue against that. The only thing I would personally think about is how much you enjoy this hobby. Are you going to miss messing with your HTPC? Only you can answer that. I would get too frustrated with the limited abilities and end up going back.

Have you looked at the HDHR? It has proved to be a great solution for me while I wait on a non-VMCE cable card. I've gotten by without HD premiums because I've never had them, would you miss them? Do you have an HDTV with a QAM tuner to see if you have unencrypted HD available?

[reggie14]

Once I get an HDTV I'll probably start using a DVR from the cable company to record HD channels, but I'll keep using Sage for SD. I imagine over time I'll get sick of having two different DVR systems and the set top DVRs will get better.

I don't have a lot of confidence in Sage's ability to survive the transition to HD. Its not a question of their technical ability, just their clout in the industry. It seems like there's two ways Sage could survive. First, cable companies could make it easier to get HD on PCs by allowing "normal" PCs to get cable cards or they could switch more channels to clear QAM. The second possibility is Microsoft provides a nice interface to their copy protection system and Sage starts to use that, which could get them access to cable cards. I think these possibilities are unlikely.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Crashless

I had no idea they could legally 5C your locals. I would give your CS number a call. That really sucks...


My understanding is that you WILL NOT be able to open those recorded files in anything other than VMCE (Vista media center edition). Which means exactly what it sounds like - no SA, no transcoding, no fun at all...



I'm not familiar with this solution, but it sounds interesting. If you're looking at spending that kind of money, why not look at a DirecTV solution like the R5000, people swear by those things, and DTV's HD lineup looks better than anyone's right now.



Definitely the easiest option. It's hard to argue against that. The only thing I would personally think about is how much you enjoy this hobby. Are you going to miss messing with your HTPC? Only you can answer that. I would get too frustrated with the limited abilities and end up going back.

Have you looked at the HDHR? It has proved to be a great solution for me while I wait on a non-VMCE cable card. I've gotten by without HD premiums because I've never had them, would you miss them? Do you have an HDTV with a QAM tuner to see if you have unencrypted HD available?

On the 5c, I don't think it's ok for them to 5c everything, however, if only some shows have this issue, it's likely the box is obeying don't copy commands from the programmer. If you went to a clear qam tuner, you likely can bypass this idiocy.

Re: vmc with cablecard, its neutered. Nno comskip, burning to dvd, playback on another system, etc... R5000-hd is your best bet for cable if your market uses moto boxes.

thx
mike

[eobiont]

My cable company actually has 5C turned completely off now. Instead, all protection is done with the CCI bits. Perhaps it is the same thing, but the STB (Moto 6100) says 5C is off, but CCI is set to 0x02 for even broadcast channels. Months ago, 5C was on for most channels, but off for Local HD. Now, on a single channel, some shows are Copy Freely and some are Copy once. If I set a show to record and it is copy once, then Sage crashes (or more correctly SGraph recorder crashes) - either way nothing gets recorded. If I can't count on a particular show to be available or not, I basically have to delete the entire channel so that Sage doesn't acidentally try and record something and I don't accidentally try to tune to the channel while flipping.

I agree that this is a violation of FCC regulations, but calls to the cable company, the local franchise authority and FCC have resulted in no changes. I think that the broadcast flag was not outlawed, I think that it was decided that devices were not forced to respect it. There is nothing preventing FOX from setting "Prison Break" to "copy once" and there is nothing preventing the cable company from respecting that flag in their device. They are following the FCC regulation because they are transmitting the SD broadcast in analog. Because of this, they can do whatever they want to the HD signal. That's my take, anyway after pursuing getting them to change their policy.

I live in a heavily wooded area and so will never be able to receive Dish. Believe me, if I could stuff cable, I would have long ago.

If R5000-HD was a little less expensive say by 1/4 or 1/3, I think I would go with that. I just have trouble laying out that much cash when the system could go away at the whim of the cable company - they could turn off the HD channels of my SD box pretty easily. With their past bastardlyness I would hate to count on them not doing this. I've heard others have had this happen to them and now are stuck trying to sell the R5000-HD to someone else.

I guess option 4 is to unsubscribe and download the shows I want to watch.

[eggman51]

After using a "media pc" of some sort for about 8 years now, 5 of those years with the HTPC as the main PVR, I have given up on the PVR aspects of an HTPC. I bought a HD PVR set top box from the local cable co. I have to say I couldn't be happier with that choice.

I'm now just building an HTPC for DVD, BD, HD, Music, Photos etc. Not going to bother with the PVR.

When I looked at the expense of building an HD capable PVR from a PC, it's just not practical right now in my view.

I can't get TiVo (Canada) and as a result I am stuck with the Motorola DCT3416 all digital dual tuner HD PVR. It's not a bad rig, but if I could get TiVos up here I'd have gone that route.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by eobiont

My local cable company recently began setting the copy protection bit on broadcast television. This means that I can no longer watch the local FOX or CBS broadcasts in HD via Sage. I get HDTV via cable STB attached with i1394 (firewire). In the past, I had been unable to view HBO HD etc, but removing the broadcast channels is the final straw.

If all you care about recording is the locals, why don't you get an ATSC card (eg HD HomeRun, Vbox, etc) and just record them directly?

Or have you looked into seeing if they're available "clear" over cable, if so an HDHR or other QAM tuner could record them off cable.

[eobiont]

I've been looking at the QAM idea - like a Hauppauge 1600 or something like it eh?

Do you have one of those Stanger? What channels do you get in QAM clear? We have the same cable company, I'm down in IC. I think I'd rather spend $100 to get my HD locals back and wait for Mediacom to switch to all digital in 09 to see how that affects things.

[stanger89]

I've actually got Dish. I wouldn't give Mediacom my money unless they were the last option available.

You might want to check the Cedar Rapids, IA thread at AVS, that should tell you what MC has clear.

[eobiont]

I would LOVE to dump mediacom and get dish, but alas, I would need to become a lumberjack to do so. (Great, now I have the Lumberjack song stuck in my head)

I went over to AVS and found that the HD locals are in ClearQAM. I guess a Hauppauge 1600 will get me back to the way I was last month before Mediacom wantonly began violating FCC regulations.

[waynedunham]

Originally Posted by eobiont

I would LOVE to dump mediacom and get dish, but alas, I would need to become a lumberjack to do so. (Great, now I have the Lumberjack song stuck in my head)

Dang it, now it's stuck in my head too! "Oh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok. I sleeps all night and I works all day" "I put on womens clothing and hang around in bars"

Lumberjack song video on YouTube

Lyrics to The Lumberjack Song

Sorry, I couldn't resist. And now back to our regularly scheduled progamming. Coming up next on BBC2 the documentary "The Larch".

[SprDtyF350]

Have you ever had anyone come by and do a site survey for satellite? I used to live in Washington, was surrounded by trees also. I managed to find a spot the dish could use. The angle the signal comes in is at a much steeper angle than what the dish makes you think it is..
Though I'm not sure how satellite will help with HD into Sage.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

Though I'm not sure how satellite will help with HD into Sage.

An R5000 modded Dish STB is currently the best way to get HD into a computer. It's the only option currently available that lets your record everything you subscribe to without restrictions. Cable's really got nothing on the R5000.

[SprDtyF350]

Originally Posted by stanger89

An R5000 modded Dish STB is currently the best way to get HD into a computer. It's the only option currently available that lets your record everything you subscribe to without restrictions. Cable's really got nothing on the R5000.

I had read about that but did not realize you could get everything subscribed. Now if Dish only carried the football package...

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by stanger89

It's the only option currently available that lets your record everything you subscribe to without restrictions.

You mean, the only option that is guaranteed to let you record everything your subscribe to. My firewired STB does that. No 5C restrictions for me.

Cable's really got nothing on the R5000.

but an R5000'd cable STB would work as well.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

I had read about that but did not realize you could get everything subscribed. Now if Dish only carried the football package...

Yup, it basically just adds a new output to your box (USB) that outputs whatever the box is tuned to. I've been holding off getting an R5000 so far because of the limited amount of HD that I (could) record. But now that the entire Discovery group is in HD, and when (soon hopefully) they add SciFi, I think that holding off will come to an end. Channels I actually watch are finally going HD.

Originally Posted by ke6guj

You mean, the only option that is guaranteed to let you record everything your subscribe to. My firewired STB does that. No 5C restrictions for me.

But they can turn that off at a whim. It would take a LOT, for Dish to "disable" the R5000. They'd have to obsolete the entire current crop of HD STBs, and that's not going to happen.

but an R5000'd cable STB would work as well.

From what (little) I've read, you're lucky if you've got a cable company that uses or supports an R5000-able cable box.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by stanger89

From what (little) I've read, you're lucky if you've got a cable company that uses or supports an R5000-able cable box.

About 60% of all cable systems, (most comcast, least TW) use Motorola STB's. If your market uses Moto boxes, then the R5000-HD will work for you.

thanks,
mike

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by mikesm

About 60% of all cable systems, (most comcast, least TW) use Motorola STB's. If your market uses Moto boxes, then the R5000-HD will work for you.

thanks,
mike

But only the non-Firewire equipped ones and the cable company will have to authorize the HD channels on the box - mine won't.

[sixdoubleo]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yup, it basically just adds a new output to your box (USB) that outputs whatever the box is tuned to. I've been holding off getting an R5000 so far because of the limited amount of HD that I (could) record. But now that the entire Discovery group is in HD, and when (soon hopefully) they add SciFi, I think that holding off will come to an end. Channels I actually watch are finally going HD.



But they can turn that off at a whim. It would take a LOT, for Dish to "disable" the R5000. They'd have to obsolete the entire current crop of HD STBs, and that's not going to happen.



From what (little) I've read, you're lucky if you've got a cable company that uses or supports an R5000-able cable box.

Stanger,

Do new Dish subscribers get the R5000 box or is that something you have to be grandfathered in on?

[SprDtyF350]

Originally Posted by sixdoubleo

Stanger,

Do new Dish subscribers get the R5000 box or is that something you have to be grandfathered in on?

I'm not Stanger but it is an addon from here.

http://www.nextcomwireless.com/r5000/home.htm

You have to send them your box and they mod it..