MainLobby plugin

[Fonceur]

After doing some reading, I am looking for inputs/suggestions on the easiest/best way do what I want...

GOAL: create a MainLobby (home automation software like CQC) plugin to display on a MainLobby client various informations from SageTV, like the list of upcoming recordings, recent recording and so on. Of course I also want it to be a 2-way communication, so that I can create/modify recording jobs and so on. (I already developed such a plugin to interact with BTV)

The way I see it, the easiest solution would be for my MainLobby plugin to interact with Nielm's web server. Which is basically how the BTV API calls are handled in the first place, going through the BTV native web server.

A more elegant, but much more complicated task for someone who has never dealt with Java, would be to go the SageCQC way, creating my own SageMLServer component to load within SageTV, and interacting with it from my MainLobby plugin. Of course, I would prefer not having to reinvent the wheel, unless there is a really good reason to do it...

So, any thoughts?

EDIT: Official release and wiki

[CollinR]

IMHO you are better off building a screen in SageTV that allows you to display mainlobby controls inside SageTV client contexts. You might look at the Home Automated Living plugin here.

I personally don't have the major desire for touchscreens everywhere. For ~$400 you can have a decent LCD, wall mount, and MVP client. I think using this leverage to your advantage would put Mainlobby a step up in my book.

Also SageTV already works halfway decent on touchscreens so if the screen were there it could be made workable.

However for what you are talking about you might look at the miniclient.jar, you can probably wrap that in a MainLobby screen. This would provide full functionality minus HD (IIRC maybe wrong) which shouldn't be that big of an issue as most touchscreens are less then 17".

Definately look at the HAL automation plugin, it's very impressive but it relies on HAL.

[Fonceur]

Originally Posted by CollinR

IMHO you are better off building a screen in SageTV that allows you to display mainlobby controls inside SageTV client contexts.

Well, there is definitely some interest in doing that, especially to display such a screen through SageTV HD extender... But for now, I would rather concentrate on displaying SageTV's information through a MainLobby client, rather than MainLobby's controls through a SageTV client... I guess a proper SageTVMLServer could handle both.

You might look at the Home Automated Living plugin here.

Thanks, I will check that.

I personally don't have the major desire for touchscreens everywhere.

I understand, but I am going with the assumption that people already have those touchscreens in their MainLobby setup to start with.

However for what you are talking about you might look at the miniclient.jar, you can probably wrap that in a MainLobby screen.

Hmm, that sounds promising too, thanks!

[Brent]

Fonceur,
Just curious, are you considering a move to SageTV or are you just wanting to extend your Mainlobby work to SageTV?

We'd love to have you here at the SageTV community either way

[Fonceur]

Originally Posted by Brent

Just curious, are you considering a move to SageTV or are you just wanting to extend your Mainlobby work to SageTV?

Well, for now it's a MainLobby thing, but who knows...

[sportera]

Thanks for opening a SageTV forum!!!

With HomeSeer, MainLobby, and SageTV systems already imlemented in my home my dream has been to join all three at the HTPC level at my SageTV client in my living room. I'm now also looking to do the same for the soon to be HTPC SageTV client in my bedroom.

So to be bluntfully honest here, and after using all three systems for 3 years now, I would rather have the capability of adding a "SageTV Mainlobby plugin" to my SageTV clients to select and control Mainlobby scenes from my remote within the SageTV environment. Reasons are:

1. SageTV and MediaMVP extenders, now with a HD extender available, make this an easier and less costly task as you expand SageTV clients through the home.

2. SageTV Placeshifter client makes it easier to monitor and control away from the home over an internet connection.

3. Did anyone pickup on the "easier" and "less costly" above?

With that said, I already know the folks here at Mainlobby would much rather find a way to "sell" the ML front end concept at the HTPC level.

So I'll continue to watch this unfold and try to offer my experiences and opinions occasionally as well as volunteer to test what you guys put out there.

[smoothtlk]

Hi Sportera,
David of Cinemar here (for the Sage users that don't "know" me )

I must have been one of the first purchasers of Sage's very nice HD Extender. Great job on it, BTW!

So, I do know what you are talking about.

As far as "would much rather find a way to "sell" the ML front end concept"

Yes, as long as that made sense for the end user's needs.

For example, last night we just announced to beta a user interface designed to be used in Windows Media Center for movie selection of movies that are cataloged in Cinemar's DVDLobby application.
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/f...ic.php?t=12401

We also now have a user interface for the iPhone / iTouch.
http://www.cinemaronlineforums.com/f...=12211&start=0

So, we do know that user's needs may not include the MainLobby Flash Client user interface software.

Of course, we also know that there are homes that will require BOTH, which also makes us happy. MainLobby custom user interfaces on the touchscreens in the home, and Windows Media Center / and possibly a modified Sage Server type UI on the "10 foot screen" with IR navigation.

The problem is that MainLobby has such of a large breadth of automation and media control capabilities and flexibility, that the user interface really requires to be customizable for best experience. If you are a professional software developer, no problem (well kinda).

So, that's probably going to be the dilemma on the best approach to do what may end up being MainLobby user interface and automation control of Sage Server, and possibly SageServer UI that has control and displays variable status updates served by MainLobby3 Server.

We've done it before, and it is "Simple Matter of Programming" to greatly underscale the work.

Need to hear from some MainLobby users that want to use Sage's excellent PVR and hardware solutions, as well as Sage's users that might want to go to next levels of automation and rest of media control.

[Fonceur]

Originally Posted by sportera

I would rather have the capability of adding a "SageTV Mainlobby plugin" to my SageTV clients to select and control Mainlobby scenes from my remote within the SageTV environment.

As I said, I like the idea too, but that's more complex to do than the reverse. Based on initial feedback, I probably won't stick with Nielm's web server (though it was great for initial testing!), instead I'll go for some Hal/CQC hybrid solution...

With that said, I already know the folks here at Mainlobby would much rather find a way to "sell" the ML front end concept at the HTPC level.

Well, I don't work for either companies, so I couldn't care less it that leads to more sales of the MainLobby and/or SageTV clients...

[sportera]

Fonceur & Smooth,

Thank you for being candid in your response.

After 25 years using and building computer systems (yeah,before DOS was born), and +20 years in the commercial building automation business I hope you can appreciate the fact that I understand a little more than most what typical end users want, i.e.:

1. Ease of use
2. Affordable
3. Dependable
4. Flexible (expandable & adaptable to the end users needs)

The latter doesn't mean "programmable". With all my experience I still feel like an infant when it comes to getting Mainlobby "adapted" to my (end user) needs.

I don't want to take over the thread with this but I do want to see feedback from those (like I), who want to take "Networked Home Audio/Video/Automation" to the next level without learning yet another programming language or spending big bucks on hardware & software to get there. The "big bucks" will be there for SageTV or Cinemar in the sheer volume of growing HTPC end users.

Please accept the above remarks as positive feedback from both a SageTV and Mainlobby end user.

[IVB]

Not trying to butt in here, but I've had the ability to render SageTV stuff in my CQC interface and bidirectionally monitor & control the SageMVP for ~a year and learned some stuff that may help you on your quest. I'm finding that although seeing all this stuff in a custom-CQC screen is perfect for my Home Theater room, it doesn't work for non-HT rooms where I don't want to spend buckets on a UMPC (ie, MBR, kids room or kitchen). Although I do have a cheap UMPC in the MBR, it's just too much of a hassle to turn it on and use it, I just grab the MVP Extender remote and select from there.

Now that the HDExtender is here and gives me a solid option for client-less control, and now that Plasma prices have plummeted even further where I can easily justify a 2nd one in the MBR, Beelzerob & I are still moving aggressively towards showing & controlling CQC controls inside the SageTV skin with zero programming. (I'm not a programmer, nor do I have any desire to learn command structures.)

The big difficulty in HA through SageTV is that you have a HUGE variety of devices that any one person could have. I haven't kept up with ML since I last tried it in 8/05, but CQC is closing in on 200 devices (or families, making the real # much bigger). Although choice is good, it's making this problem worse.

If you're willing to make each person program a little, the problem gets much simpler. We're hoping to not have to accept that, as it'll inevitably be a hurdle to anyone looking to do this, which means lower adoption.

We've got some ideas as to how we could be both flexible/configurable, but also require no programming. But they're too unbaked at this point to bother sharing without having a pile-on about how dumb they are, so I won't bother embarassing myself now with them.

Anyway, hope that helped a little.

[Fonceur]

Originally Posted by IVB

Not trying to butt in here

Don't worry, I'm open to everything...

The big difficulty in HA through SageTV is that you have a HUGE variety of devices that any one person could have. I haven't kept up with ML since I last tried it in 8/05, but CQC is closing in on 200 devices

Actually, from what I understand, that part would be simpler with ML. They introduced the possibility to use an HTML page (with some AJAX and other Safari browser specific codes, but...) to control trough IPhone/ITouch. So the SageTV-ML interface would be as simple as displaying a web page in the SageTV Studio (no idea if it can be done or how...), or pulling the informations from that HTML code to build the page. So in principle, the MLServer side is already able to handle that, it's just missing that "little SageTV Studio component"...

If you're willing to make each person program a little, the problem gets much simpler.

Indeed, they basically would have to provide their own HTML file(s) for that, which might not be your definition of programming, but... Otherwise, I can't see a simple way to please everyone...

[IVB]

Originally Posted by Fonceur

Don't worry, I'm open to everything...

ok, just lemme know if I should bow out. My goal isn't to push CQC, but rather push SageTV as the gold standard of integrated DVR/HA. Hence, please take this post as "have you thought of <xxx>"

Originally Posted by Fonceur

Actually, from what I understand, that part would be simpler with ML. They introduced the possibility to use an HTML page (with some AJAX and other Safari browser specific codes, but...) to control trough IPhone/ITouch. So the SageTV-ML interface would be as simple as displaying a web page in the SageTV Studio (no idea if it can be done or how...), or pulling the informations from that HTML code to build the page. So in principle, the MLServer side is already able to handle that, it's just missing that "little SageTV Studio component"...
...
Indeed, they basically would have to provide their own HTML file(s) for that, which might not be your definition of programming

Well, CQC has a webserver too, and just rendering up a 1way monitoring webpage is very simple in CQC and easy to pull up (I think) in sageStudio, but to do 2way it's a little harder. And in ML you still need to learn AJAX and a decent amount of HTML, I think.

But, that's still much harder than what we're hoping to achieve.

but... Otherwise, I can't see a simple way to please everyone...

so, to explain this next bit, I need to explain one thing in CQC. Again, not trying to threadcrap here, just give you some ideas.

In CQC, you give your devices names. Each of them has a standad set of fields. Here's a screenshot using my Denon, which is a pretty common device.




CQC also has an XML server that can tell you what the value is of any of those fields without having to resort to http.

What we're looking into is ideally as simplistic for the end user as creating a text file with your list of drivers and fields that you want displayed. I.E. (and not everyone names their devices with the same sample-<device> naming convention that I do, but many folks use my templates as a learning tool so it keeps it nice and generic)

ControlTheseDamnFields.txt
(format is SageScreenName, drivername, fieldname, read|readwrite)
HA-MBR, sample-denon-3805, srcinput, readwrite
HA-MBR, sample-denon-3805, power, readwrite
HA-Security, sample-elk, AreaArm, readwrite
HA-Security, sample-elk, PhysZone013, read
HA-Lighting, sample-zWave, Entry, readwrite

We'd create standard screens in SageStudio with those names into either the SageMC and call it SageMC-HA. Then, all a user would have to do is create the above .txt file, and the system would automagically get the 2nd & 3rd fields, call the XML server, get the value, and can paint the screen indicated in field 1. It would either allow you or prevent you from writing to the field based on the value in field 4. (ie, you don't write to the value of your motion sensor, that's a read-only field).

If you wanted to get real fancy, you could even add a field5 with only the list of valid values that the user wants to choose from. I.E.,

HA-MBR, sample-denon-3805, srcinput, readwrite, Phono| CD|Tuner|DVD|VDP|TV|Sat|VCR1|VCR2|Aux|Tape1|Source

I don't know if the XML server will just give you that LoV if you query it as i've never actually programmed in it, that could potentially save you the last step.

Make sense?

[Fonceur]

Originally Posted by IVB

Make sense?

I see what you mean by not needing any programming, with that text file. OTOH, I don't really trust my own sense of aesthetic, so I would rather have people supply their own HTML files designed the way they want/like it, rather than build the page(s) for them based on a text file... I guess you could provide multiple templates for each families of devices, but as you said, there are a lot of devices with specific functionality and all...

[IVB]

You wouldn't need multiple templates, just one that was "HA-Misc", where anything could go just all mashed together. Plus, that way if folks custom-created new screens using SageStudio or SageMC, it would be as simple as changing that first menu.

If you created a method that allows both, folks who can code HTML/AJAX can do what they want, and folks that want to stick with the sagestudio skin can do the "vanilla" look&feel. Although the new SageMC stuff is pretty damn far from vanilla.

BTW, have you seen the HAL screenshots?

[Fonceur]

Originally Posted by IVB

Plus, that way if folks custom-created new screens using SageStudio or SageMC, it would be as simple as changing that first menu.

Right, I'm still in the BTV mindset, all that skinning and reconfigurability is still foreign to me...

If you created a method that allows both, folks who can code HTML/AJAX can do what they want, and folks that want to stick with the sagestudio skin can do the "vanilla" look&feel.

Hmm, that sounds like a plan...

BTW, have you seen the HAL screenshots?

I did a very quick search/scan for HAL and came up with one screenshot, with the kitchen light selected, is there a more extensive collection of screenshots somewhere?

[IVB]

Hmmm. this thread used to have several screenshots.

[CollinR]

Another vote for a universal method of getting GUI structure and data into SageTV client contexts.


I have no clue how it could be universal but I'm all for it!

[IVB]

Universal meaning MainLobby/vCrib/CQC?

I doubt that's doable, best case is (watch out, dumbass speaking programming terms here) some abstraction layer inside a Sage jar class thingey that all 3 teams agree on. Then, a single SageStudio skin could be built (a la SageMC-HA) that calls each of them.

Each app is bound to have it's own unique method of data retrieval. For CQC, that's the XML gateway (same mechanism the dot-net-viewer, aka PDA viewer, can get and set any field). But, Dean's got this mega-secure authentication going on as it's meant for whole-world/remote PDA cellphone control. As the other apps aren't meant to be that encompassing, I seriously doubt they've got that same level of security and/or access.

Hence, the best case would be SageMCHA->SageHA.jar->(ML.jar|CQC.jar|vCrib.jar).

Now if a single word I typed in actually made any sense, i'd be shocked.

[sportera]

Thanks IVB for butting in. I'll have to look into CQC.

I've been using Homeseer (very flexible and powerful) for my HA for a few years now and went with ML a couple of years ago to wrap it into a "pretty" touchscreen control interface that can be very user friendly for the non-technical person. I then found I could (with the help of Cinemar and some good end users sharing in the Cinemar forum) I could tie other "home visual priorities" into ML scenes such as a calendar of daily reminders pulled from MS Outlook running on my office PC, animated weather radar and 5-day forecast, CallerID information (including caller number, time&date of call, log), and phone contacts, etc.

The missing part has been to copy this to my TV's through my HTPC server and clients.

I'd hate to toss out Homeseer or Mainlobby at this point and move to another system but it that's what it will take to get where I want to go then so be it.

Thanks again for the CQC tip. I'll have to check it out.

[smoothtlk]

Sportera,
What is it that you want to do that you feel you can't with MainLobby / Homeseer? and then when SageTV is in the mix?