Stability problems?

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

Actually you want to use the support request that clift mentioned rather than the bug report in Andy's link. Bug reports are not responded to (unless there has been a change in policy), just recreated in house and fixed (hopefully) for future releases.

Please submit a bug report, as I stated. It was mentioned that a beta is being used; all beta issues should be reported via the bug report form.

The form states that they won't be responding to info in the form, but if a follow-up is needed, then the submitter will receive an email. Essentially, there is no automated response and there will be no response from a developer if none is needed.

- Andy

[ractar28]

Originally Posted by gplasky

They and THEM is you. Just file the report if you want it fixed. This is a user forum-not a support forum. The links are in signatures, SageTV manual and in the FAQs. You can't expect to be spoonfed this stuff.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with the "spoonfed" portion. SageTV is a product that you must pay for. Therefore, support is to be expected (unless otherwise stated).

While I agree that freedml is asking a bit much, I don't believe your response was reasonable either.

Freedml,

Here's where I think you got unreasonable. You mentioned that multiple people, multiple devices, and multiple firmware/software revisions were reporting the same symptoms. However, in order for any support organization to assist, they are going to want more information. You need to provide them with that information, unfortunately, in the method they request it (support request form).

I agree about signatures being skipped over, and I understand your frustration. However, let's say your media server is a store-bought model 4800 and you added a hooptie-500 tuner. Well, hmmm, maybe SageTV or one of the techs owns a model 4800 and they have a hooptie-500 in house for testing. They combine the two with a HD-200 and can't replicate the issue. Fine, they contact you and ask you to swap your hd-200 for another one and send them the one you're having issues with. If they still can't replicate the issue, someone going above and beyond might actually ask you to take an "image" of your server, so they can load the image and try to replicate the issue. Meanwhile, does the new hd-200 they sent you have the same issues?

However, until they get information from you (the information they want, in the format they want it in), you're saying little more than "my hd-200 isn't working right", which truly isn't helpful from a support perspective.

What hobbyists/enthusiasts sometimes forget is that some folks just want to buy the product, plug it in, and have it work -- first time, every time. You PAID for that, you should get it. Now if you choose to run ESX 3.5 with 1 gig of RAM and load 14 guest operating systems, then you're making your own bed and can't expect the same "plug it in and it works" results or even support that a basic user-setup would get. Enthusiasts ACCEPT that they are partially on their own for support and expect you to accept the same terms -- but that's not what you signed up for.

[ractar28]

Originally Posted by Opus4

The form states that they won't be responding to info in the form, but if a follow-up is needed, then the submitter will receive an email. Essentially, there is no automated response and there will be no response from a developer if none is needed.

Is there a tracking method for the user? The "bug report black hole" is annoying. If I submit a bug report, I'd like to know the status, such as "unable to reproduce", "reproduced error, working on fix", "issue will be fixed in release x.xx", etc.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by ractar28

I'm sorry, but I disagree with the "spoonfed" portion. SageTV is a product that you must pay for. Therefore, support is to be expected (unless otherwise stated).

While I agree that freedml is asking a bit much, I don't believe your response was reasonable either.

Welcome. I see you are a new user so it may make sense to get a little familar with the site starting with the FAQs and the user manual. This is a user to user forum and not an official support forum manned by SageTV. Of course support is expected with a purchased product. And if you read the website, the forum, the FAQ, helpful signature lines and the product manual you will know how to file an official support request. For any beta versions a lot of the same sources provides you with a link to the official bug report you need to fill out. The "spoonfed" comment may have been a bit harsh but if you ever purchased software before and had an issue you would look in these same places on almost any site to find out what to do. If you look at the conversation he didn't want to file a bug report at all and felt he shouldn't have to.

Originally Posted by ractar28

Is there a tracking method for the user? The "bug report black hole" is annoying. If I submit a bug report, I'd like to know the status, such as "unable to reproduce", "reproduced error, working on fix", "issue will be fixed in release x.xx", etc.

No there is no tracking method. Support has been very good in following up with a user, requesting logs and information and providing a status via email. That is the mechanism they have in place for both support requests and bug reports. (No tracking facility) Please start with the FAQ's in the forum to understand the way things work around here. Once you are familiar with the process it makes everything a whole lot easier.

Gerry

[freedml]

I have bought a lot of programs and have often gotten support for them. I have never had as much hassle as I have had with SageTV.

Ok, so I filed a 'bug report' (since most bugs aren't bugs, why not just have a 'support request' and then classify it as a 'bug' when you determine that's the cause?). After going back and forth twice, it turns out that my SageTV server is 6.3 and should be 6.5 to support the HD200s (not that I think this will solve the problem, but it's worth a try). Now, why did this take more than one debug file to be sent? Even more damning, why didn't the HD200 ever give a message "SageTV Server version should be 6.5 or higher".

One of the big problems with SageTV is that it just does what it thinks it should do without either checking its environment or giving you the tools to debug the environment. I struggled with wireless-g for weeks being told that it should work. It barely works for SD, not at all for anything higher. Even the wireless commands and application loading were deadly slow, so it wasn't just a bandwidth issue. Even after wiring the MVPs, the server was so tied up with transcoding that it didn't work well. So I bought HD200s to eliminate the transcoding. I wasted tons of time and money on 3 wMVPs and SageTV licenses for them.

I also tried to use Placeshifter, but it just assumes there's always enough bandwidth on the local network for anything. So, it doesn't work on my local network. If I tweak the settings for my local network then I lose functionality over the internet.

Getting through the firewall and router is too damn complicated. My other applications have no problem setting themselves up to get through, but SageTV just can't do it by itself.

I was directed to the forums for support early on. I had one round of email support which was very frustrating since I got one email with one more question once a day. It took weeks to try to get down to the actual problem, which we never got to.

In short, SageTV is still at the 'hobbyist' level. Hobbyist operation and hobbyist support. I hope either SageTV gets a whole lot better or something else comes along that solves these problems.

[paulbeers]

So you were still on 6.3 even though everything states to run 6.5 with the HD200? And who told you that Wireless-G should work? I haven't seen anyone recommend Wireless-G.....that lesson was learned years ago with the Wireless MVP. It sounds to me like you didn't research how to use the HD200 and didn't research the limitations of Wireless networking and video....

[freedml]

Yes, I am still on 6.3. 'Everything' needs to include a message on-screen on the HD200!

Yes, a tech at SageTV kept telling me that wireless G should work. Last August.

If SageTV wants to get beyond the 'hobbyist' category it can't depend on users to 'research' how to configure or install its products or products it claims to support.

For instance, I assumed that MVPs were better since I wasn't using HDTVs yet. And I really didn't want to wire the house if I didn't have to. And, I have always liked Hauppauge hardware even if their software was terrrible. WRONG. The TV doesn't matter, an HD extender is needed to eliminate transcoding on the server. I don't think any amount of 'research' would have turned up that consideration for someone new to HDTV. etc .etc. etc.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by freedml

Yes, I am still on 6.3. 'Everything' needs to include a message on-screen on the HD200!

Yes, a tech at SageTV kept telling me that wireless G should work. Last August.

If SageTV wants to get beyond the 'hobbyist' category it can't depend on users to 'research' how to configure or install its products or products it claims to support.

For instance, I assumed that MVPs were better since I wasn't using HDTVs yet. And I really didn't want to wire the house if I didn't have to. And, I have always liked Hauppauge hardware even if their software was terrrible. WRONG. The TV doesn't matter, an HD extender is needed to eliminate transcoding on the server. I don't think any amount of 'research' would have turned up that consideration for someone new to HDTV. etc .etc. etc.

From the home page on the Sage website

*Watching live or recorded HDTV requires optional SageTV Media Center Version 6.5 or later, a PC/Mac and HD TV Tuner)

I don't think it is necessary for it to come onscreen if you just read on the website.

As far as wireless-G yes it should work. But not well. Any search for wireless on the forums will bring up tons of threads of how well it doesn't work. For either SD or HD. SOme use it-but very few. And even Windows Media Center recommends you DON'T use wireless for streaming.

Never assume. I'm not sure why you would assume 4 year old hardware would work better than hardware just recently developed. And again any search would come up with those comments regarding MVP vs. HD Extender playback. In the stickies of the Media Extender forum you have a sticky called "Love it, love it, love." with tons of comments of users saying how much better the HD Extenders are over the MVP for both SD and HD viewing and how they are getting rid of their MVPs.

And maybe Sage wants to stay in the 'hobbyist' category. Maybe it is their niche market. When a product is based on client/server technology and a home network becomes a requirement for multiple room viewing with network shares and other technology like a NAS can be used it does tend to go a little beyond your typical Windows XP and Microsoft Office installation.

Gerry

[freedml]

Four reasons I started with wMVPs:

No wiring.

SageTV said it would work.

Hauppauge makes good hardware.

It made sense to me to buy 4 year old SD extenders to convert 10 year old SD TVs. I didn't expect a debilitating 'transcoding' burden on the server.

One expensive lesson -- I found out that I vastly prefer the Hauppauge remote layout to the SageTV remote's undifferentiated buttons.

[Slack]

Originally Posted by ractar28

What hobbyists/enthusiasts sometimes forget is that some folks just want to buy the product, plug it in, and have it work -- first time, every time.

If that was what the OP wanted - why record TV on a PC at all??

Psst. Hey freedml, I have 3 ReplayTVs (all lifetime, 2 upgraded), and spare RTV motherboard, and a Samsung SIR-T451 OTA tuner that can downconvert OTA HD to anamorphic 16:9 for one the said RTVs. That I would happily trade you for one or more HD200s. The RTVS are stellar at room-room streaming of SD.

One comment on support requests.... Sage need to re-vamp the forms. There is NOTHING in them regarding extenders. It's like it's still only about PC software.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by gplasky

From the home page on the Sage website I don't think it is necessary for it to come onscreen if you just read on the website.

Also when I got my HD200, it came with a sheet of paper that stated specifically I needed to be running 6.5.....

[Rezolution]

Based on the amount of complaints that you have about the SageTV products, I think you should buy some Tivos. You'll be happier.

[Narflex]

FYI,

freedml's problem was completely solved by simply upgrading to V6.5 (which is required for using the HD200)

[freedml]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

Also when I got my HD200, it came with a sheet of paper that stated specifically I needed to be running 6.5.....

My sheet of paper said "make sure you are using the current beta version of Sage..."

I don't know about you, but when I don't trust software in the first place (and Sage is a long way from earning my trust), I sure don't go experimenting with beta versions. Upgrading is a little more time-consuming because I don't feel safe unless I do a full backup with Disaster Recovery prep before trying the upgrade.

Latest example: I upgraded to 6.5 as suggested. Sage barely worked. It was transcoding which it hadn't done since I got rid of my MVPs. I was almost ready to dump it right there but it was really late and I was tired. When I woke up in the morning it was back to normal (and not improved).

I was later told that upgrading to 6.5 caused an immediate and massive reindexing of my videos. WHY CAN'T YOU PUT UP A MESSAGE SAYING THAT THIS IS HAPPENING???? Maybe even with a progress bar and an estimate of when it will be done like most programs.

This caused SageTV barely to work at all until morning, and when it did work for some reason it thought it needed to transcode, so it did.

On top of that, errors in some of the files caused massive amounts of error logging (which I'm told has already been 'corrected' for the next release).

[freedml]

Originally Posted by Narflex

FYI,

freedml's problem was completely solved by simply upgrading to V6.5 (which is required for using the HD200)

Ask anyone in my family, problems have NOT been completely solved!

Stuttering playback has definitely NOT been solved. I still think this is buffering problem since a 2s rewind plays the problem passage correctly and acceptable playback continues for 5-10 seconds. But it's pretty irritating to have to rewind 2s every 10s.

The problem where HD200s spontaneously disconnect or turn themselves off or freeze and need a cold boot may have disappeared -- I got in the habit of shutting them off after each use as a workaround, so I need to leave them on for a while to see what they do.


to Rezolution: Five reasons I chose Sage over Tivo -- no subscription fees, whole house system, watching and programming via internet, general media solution (personal photos/videos, internet resources) and comskip function.

[freedml]

Originally Posted by Narflex

FYI,

freedml's problem was completely solved by simply upgrading to V6.5 (which is required for using the HD200)

Had to cold boot an HD200 this morning...

[rswoods]

Originally Posted by freedml

Had to cold boot an HD200 this morning...

I haven't had to cold-reboot my HD200 since sometime in December. I'm very happy with my Sage system. I run a Win2k3 server in the basement hosting SageTV, an HDHR tuner, two SageClient PCs, and an HD200 for our main TV. Everything just works.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by freedml

Had to cold boot an HD200 this morning...

Suggestions:

If you had to cold boot the HD200 to get it to connect then I would start diagnosing the NOC on the server, the switch and the network cables being used. If it is gigabit ethernet make sure the cables are at least Cat 5e ot Cat 6 at best. Make sure all devices are on one subnet and each has a legitimate IP address.

With the transcoding issue do you have any existing files in the Import directories for music, videos and photos? If so start out new by removing those from Sage. Now create new directories on your shares with no files in them. Set these new directories up as Import directories for videos, music and photos. Now reboot your Sage server and see if the transcoder is still running hard. If not you have probably solved your issue and there may be corrupt files that you originally had in there. You can start copying the files back in the new directories in logical succesion until you see the transcoder issue again. Use a process of eliminationto figure out the file(s).

Gerry

[mangriotis]

Originally Posted by freedml

Ask anyone in my family, problems have NOT been completely solved!

Stuttering playback has definitely NOT been solved. I still think this is buffering problem since a 2s rewind plays the problem passage correctly and acceptable playback continues for 5-10 seconds. But it's pretty irritating to have to rewind 2s every 10s.

The problem where HD200s spontaneously disconnect or turn themselves off or freeze and need a cold boot may have disappeared -- I got in the habit of shutting them off after each use as a workaround, so I need to leave them on for a while to see what they do.


to Rezolution: Five reasons I chose Sage over Tivo -- no subscription fees, whole house system, watching and programming via internet, general media solution (personal photos/videos, internet resources) and comskip function.

I notice you mention comskip... I had a recent stuttering issue similar to what you describe, and it was due to comskip and disk access. We were watching an HD show on HD200, and it would play ok for 10-20s, but then freeze every couple of seconds. A jump back would make it ok for another short period of time. I killed the comskip process. I am using Dirmon2 to manage comskip, ticked the "only run comskip when disk is idle", and restarted it. I haven't had an issue since.

I also had numerous instances where the HD200 would shut off and be unusable until a hard reset (i.e. unplugging it). This was solved by upgrading my server hardware. I was getting java errors on the server machine (I think it was running out of either RAM or CPU or both), resulting in a disconnect to the HD200. Since upgrading, I have never had to unplug the HD200.

[rmac321]

Originally Posted by mangriotis

I also had numerous instances where the HD200 would shut off and be unusable until a hard reset (i.e. unplugging it). This was solved by upgrading my server hardware. I was getting java errors on the server machine (I think it was running out of either RAM or CPU or both), resulting in a disconnect to the HD200. Since upgrading, I have never had to unplug the HD200.

Another thought on those lines would be to check the JVM Heap size. Things can get unstable when you run out of memory and since you have a lot of videos being scanned. you are likely in need of changing this registry entry. Do a search on JVM Heap Size if you need more info, there are a couple good threads.