SageMCTuner - use a cablecard in Sage!

[fyodor]

Originally Posted by babgvant

My understanding is that FW passes 5C downstream, so even if the content is flagged copy freely w/o a valid 5C key the consuming device wouldn't be able to do anything with the content.

The DCT has all of the necessary keys, so it will be able to read the flags and process the content. AFAIK it fully removes all of the transport level DRM (5C) and optionally rencrypts the file using PlayReady DRM.

The change in the new firmware is that it uses the flags to decide if the file should be encrypted so the two things are not related.

My (vague and possibly wrong) understanding is that there was no "5C" in the cable transmission only copy protection flagging- the "5C" was something that was applied to the firewire output by the cable box based on the copy protection flagging (5C referring to the 5 companies involved in the firewire standard). If something is tagged with copy restrictions, 5C encryption is applied and only other authorized devices can receive the signal. Whereas if something is tagged "copy freely" no 5C encryption is applied to the firewire output and unauthorized devices (such as a computer) can receive the video input.

[fyodor]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Now that explanation makes a lot of sense and clarifies how this may be very useful. Thank you fyodor.

The next question is, how can I tell what flagging is used by my cable company? I *think* I will be one of the lucky ones because I currently have one "box" from the cable company that I use to get their "premium digital" channels that are not available via Clear QAM or standard (from the wall) analog. If I am understanding this correctly, I could use this setup instead of the "box" provided by the cable company. Is this right?

Not necessarily-the "box" will decode regardless of the "copy protection flagging". So it's "possible" that you have stuff flagged with copy protection that can still be played back by the "box" on your "television." Such programming will be encrypted by "windows media center" when it is recorded. "You" will be able to "watch" the encrypted recordings in "windows media center" but the files will not be readable by Andy's "computer program" and thus not be "usable" in SageTV.

[tmiranda]

"Thank" "you" "everybody" "for" "the" "feedback"

[ToxMox]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Any suggestions? Looking at my body of work, you can probably guess that naming stuff isn't my forte.

How about McTuner for Sage?

Pronounced like McDonald.

"McTuner" being the main name with "for Sage" as sort of the tag line.

[Clift]

Originally Posted by ToxMox

How about McTuner for Sage?

Pronounced like McDonald.

"McTuner" being the main name with "for Sage" as sort of the tag line.

2 Tuner CETON card:
Double McTuner

Donator Version:
Double McTuner w/Cheese

Thank You. I'm here till Tuesday.


But seriously, How I understand it:
encrypted = Firewire can not tune it. AKA, not Clear.
unencrypted = Firewire can tune it. AKA ClearQAM
encrypted + CableCARD = may or may not be DRMed.

That should be right, right?

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by babgvant

Everyone who doesn't subscribe to premium cable channels, or uses it as a backup tuner w/ a HD PVR.

sorry, but i can't figure out which channels are or are not recordable here.

does this access all channels the cable card owner is paying for?
if so, why wouldn't premium channels that are being payed for (e.g. MLB extra innings) be recordable? or do i misunderstand how the term DRM is being used here?

i love the idea of replacing two MOT7100 boxes with a cable card plugin

[HelenWeathers]

When I used MCE 2005 (off and on from 2004-2007) with my DirecTV receiver (captured with s-Video and L/R audio cables) there were shows that I recorded that only had a 24hour viewing window. Some had a 30 day viewing window. Some never expired. This started happening mid 2006 IIRC.

It wasn't channel dependent per se. New movies on HBO might have the 30 day window and all other HBO movies have no restriction. PPV movies sometimes would only play for 24 hours after recording.

Some recordings were PC dependent as well and could only be played back on the PC where they were recorded and not other PCs on the network and certainly not on a PC not on the network.

I don't know where or how MS retrieved the info to DRM those recordings, but I do know it became a pain in the ....

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by cat6man

sorry, but i can't figure out which channels are or are not recordable here.

You're not the only one

does this access all channels the cable card owner is paying for?
if so, why wouldn't premium channels that are being payed for (e.g. MLB extra innings) be recordable? or do i misunderstand how the term DRM is being used here?

That's really the unanswered question. The device itself will be able to record essentially everything you subscribe to. However there's the wrinkle of how that content will be flagged. The reason is only shows marked "Copy Freely" will be recorded without DRM/CP, "Copy Once" shows will have CP/DRM, and "Copy Never" will not be recordable (not sure if WMC lets you view/timeshift those).

The problem is nobody really knows how stuff is going to be flagged. Apparently most stuff recorded on a Tivo with CableCard is marked Copy Freely, which is good news for PC users.

[Fuzzy]

Some cable boxes will display the copy protection flagging if you go into their service menus. If that is the case, you should be able to get a feel for your local cable companies protection policies.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by fyodor

It's my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong-you clearly have much more expertise with this stuff) that the copy protection flags that are relied upon by the cable box to determine what type of 5C firewire output to use are the same flags that are relied upon for the OCUR tuners to determine whether something is copyable. Ergo, no firewire means no DRM-free OCUR recordings.

F

If that's the case, I can confirm that CNNHD, Espn, and many other channels won't record here in Aurora Il on Comcast... they wouldn't via firewire a year ago on Comcast.

[ohpleaseno]

I think it should be named "Kluge".

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by stanger89

If things are working right, Copy Freely content can be recorded in the clear with Firewire. This is how some have been able to use Firewire to record everything. It's when Copy Freely is not set (ie Copy Once) that the box enforces DTCP (5C) protocol over firewire. And since PC's aren't DTCP compliant they fail the handshake and are prevented from recording.

Firewire and CableCard should work the same way regarding the flags, no CP/DRM on Copy Freely (that's what freely means after all ), CP/DRM on Copy Once, and no recording of Copy Never.

Now there's been discussion that some providers' boxes don't work right WRT Firewire and CP flags, enforcing DTCP on everything. Which is where our skepticism comes from. The "relaxed" restrictions shouldn't bring anything new, they should just open CableCard up to where Firewire should have been all along, but we've seen the problems with Firewire so we are skeptical that the same won't happen with CableCard.

It is my understanding that in practice FW doesn't work right and cannot be used as a proxy for what is actually marked copy freely. But my perception could be influenced by wishful thinking; I can't record anything but locals over FW.

Originally Posted by stanger89

FWIW, DTCP isn't the encryption used to transport the content to your house (I believe that's DigiCypher II, Dish uses Nagravision 3, and DirecTV VideoGuard), it is encryption/copy protection added by the STB after demuxing to the content while transferred over FireWire to a compatible recorder (ie DVHS).

You are correct, 5C is just used b/w devices in the A/V stack. I misspoke earlier; "X"ing out the "(5C)" should sort everything

[dfitz43]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The problem is nobody really knows how stuff is going to be flagged. Apparently most stuff recorded on a Tivo with CableCard is marked Copy Freely, which is good news for PC users.

Surely there's somebody out there with TivoHD who could give us a sense of the DRM scheme in whatever market they're in. This is obviously a crucial question to whether or not SageMCTuner will be a viable alternative to HDPVR or R5000.

From Tivo's support website:

To view the CCI byte value for a channel:
Tune to the channel in Live TV.
Press the TiVo button to go to the TiVo Central® screen and then select Messages & Settings, then Account and System Information, and then Diagnostics.
Check the Channel value for Tuner 1, which is on the first page of the Diagnostics screen. If you do not see the one you want, use the CHANNEL DOWN button to scroll to the information for Tuner 2.
Once you find the channel number, look below it for the CCI byte setting.
Note: If the CCI Byte setting is N/A, the channel is analog.

cheers,
Dave

[Clift]

Well the new firmware as well as the advisor tool are out. So if anyone wants to jump on this, now is the time.

Anyone?

Bueler?

Bueler?

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/11/06...-drm-free-mce/

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/11/06...ond-media-cen/

[Clift]

Screen shot of SageMCTuner on Missing Remote, via Geektonic

http://www.missingremote.com/index.p...=4379&Itemid=1

[SHS]

Originally Posted by Clift

Screen shot of SageMCTuner on Missing Remote, via Geektonic

http://www.missingremote.com/index.p...=4379&Itemid=1

The problem with that idea is it not the rigth of doing things
1: Need used MCE
2: Dbl your disk space becuase it need to conver the wtv container (wapper) file in to standerd ts or mpg file.
It none thing more then Piggeback from one aapplication to another application, I hate see what the Memory and CPUage is like.
But it still interesting but not my cup of tea if can't be done in rigth way I'm not interested.

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by SHS

The problem with that idea is it not the rigth of doing things
1: Need used MCE

You need to use 7MC to setup the DCT and not disable its services, but that's it.

Originally Posted by SHS

2: Dbl your disk space becuase it need to conver the wtv container (wapper) file in to standerd ts or mpg file.

You do double the disc used while recording, but the application deletes the WTV after the recording stops. Doubling I/O is a concern as more tuners are used, but it's pretty easy to configure MC to use on disc and Sage to use another so it should scale reasonably well w/ good planning.

Originally Posted by SHS

It none thing more then Piggeback from one aapplication to another application,

While I can see where it's possible to make this assertion not having a background in how software development works (or knowing how MC works), it is w/o merit.

Unless everything you do works directly on the metal your app is part of a larger ecosystem. It leverages the APIs provided by the base OS and other services layered on top of it. In this case, MC provides an API to interact w/ its recording service and my service interacts w/ it using that API to start a recording. This is in concept no different from using DirectShow to interact w/ a BDA tuner device, it's just a couple levels up the stack.

Unless you're advocating that Sage write everything in assembly, write their own device drivers, recording infrastructure, and playback engine I have a hard time reconciling this assertion w/ reality.

Originally Posted by SHS

I hate see what the Memory and CPUage is like.

There are additional hits to memory and CPU, but because the process is primarily a container swap the impact to those resources on any modern machine is minimal. As noted earlier the main issue is w/ I/O, but because it's relatively easy to scale that vertically it shouldn't present a real issue in most scenarios.

[LehighBri]

There will always be those who doubt. Nonetheless, this is an amazing solution, and one which i'm sure will continue to mature over time, especially as others start to experiment with it (no pressure babgvant )

[Graygeek]

Originally Posted by LehighBri

There will always be those who doubt. Nonetheless, this is an amazing solution, and one which i'm sure will continue to mature over time, especially as others start to experiment with it (no pressure babgvant )

+1 .... this is ingenious two thumbs up to Andy

[babgvant]

Originally Posted by LehighBri

There will always be those who doubt. Nonetheless, this is an amazing solution, and one which i'm sure will continue to mature over time, especially as others start to experiment with it (no pressure babgvant )

The testing Mike and I have done has produced some very promising results, but there is still more work to do to ensure an acceptable level of stability and a lot more testing.

Should everything work out there will be some drawbacks (tuner lag is probably the biggest). And it will be somewhat complex to install because (at least in the current implementation) the application has a dependency on a free 3rd party filter that I can't legally include in the install.

All that said, it was great seeing it work